Hi Beni,

thank you too, it’s a pleasure to talk to you.

Yes, I think I’m in some transition phase.

Good, you definitely have a lot of self-awareness, you’re very observant of yourself. And you’re understanding your old patterns and trying to respond differently in some situations. Which is great! It’s a slow change, but that’s totally okay.

You can even tell some people – but only those you trust – that you’re trying to be more open about your feelings and show more vulnerability, and so not to worry about you but simply lend you a listening ear, without needing to fix anything. I don’t know if this would be too much to ask, but anyway, just a suggestion in case it may help you open up even more.

Guess your right, I don’t feel some things there yet. In such situations it’s kinda like I don’t remember my autonomy and I can submit or rebel. It’s not always like this and I am already doing way better than a few years ago. Sometimes I know what I want and it’s scary to say. I want to learn how to say it in a gentle and assertive way.

What I am noticing is that your communication style is very gentle. So I am guessing that you have it in you and that it won’t be that hard to express yourself in a gentle, yet assertive way.

As for the black-or-white reaction (submit or rebel), that’s very typical because those are the only two ways we’ve learned as children. And it’s actually a part of our trauma response (fight-flight-freeze). Fight would be to rebel, flight or freeze would be to submit, I guess.

I think what could help is not to view such situations like an attack – like someone threatening you – but more like someone expressing their preference and you having the right to accept it or refuse it. You having the right to express your own preference.

My experience is that whenever I don’t feel helpless about the situation, the more empowered and less angry I feel. Because I know I have options – I can say no and refuse to do what I don’t want to do. So this gives me a more relaxed attitude about it, rather than triggering the fight-or-flight response, where I feel I need to defend myself from danger.

And then you can be more diplomatic about it, e.g. saying “I know how much you’d love to see this movie, but I really feel tired today and need to get some rest”. So you acknowledge their need, but you also express your own need. That’s how you assert yourself politely and gently. Does that makes sense?

Yap, that’s how it feels like. I watched a video yesterday about borderline personality and thought ah that’s how it feels.

You mean the extremes of feelings that a person with a BPD feels (e.g. first the intense love for someone, then intense hate after the person doesn’t give them everything they ask for)?

I reflect a lot about boundaries these days. I’d like to learn how to set healthy boundaries. I don’t think it’s something I can pretend to have or not to have.

Yeah, you can’t pretend to have boundaries. I mean, we can have too weak boundaries, which can be easily crossed, or too rigid boundaries, where we put up a wall around ourselves. It takes some healing and practice to learn how to set healthy boundaries. And also self-awareness, because you first need to know what is it that you want and don’t want in your life.

I’m not shure what would happen. Memory says it’s dangerous.

I totally get you. I also have a bad experience acknowledging weakness or vulnerability to my mother. It always backfired because she would blame me for my own suffering, telling me that it’s all my fault, or she would later use the information against me, to attack me or judge me in some way. She never showed empathy. So yeah, admitting that I am hurting was always dangerous and traumatic.

It might be alright as she is working on herself too.

Oh really? Is she attending therapy? Because my mother has always refused it – she keeps blaming other people (including me) for her problems.

It’s easy to answer more closed questions, that is something she could do. I also know that in such situations I’d not remember any closed questions.

I’d like to help her, I could ask her what would you like to know?

You mean, when she asks you how you are, but actually has that martyr expression on her face and you know she isn’t really interested in knowing how you are – you think that it would help if you asked her “what would you like to know?” instead of answering a more general question of “how are you?”

Hi Beni,

That’s a very good point. People tend to be overwhelmed or to give advice.

Thank you, I am glad you like it. Yeah, some people are quick to try to fix the problem, rather than just listening and empathizing with the person. And some don’t know what to say and feel uncomfortable. So yeah, you might want to try this approach with the people you trust.

In Non-Violent Communication, one teaching which stuck with me was: “If you meet someones needs against your own needs, everyone is gonna pay for it”

Oh I love that! Very good point. Have you been learning NV communication? Because you do sound very balanced in your communication here…

And yet there are situations where I do not leave because I forget that I can. I forget that I have options. Or I just can’t (mentally) and then I know it and live with that.

Yes, when we’re in the stress response, our rational brain sort of switches off and our perspective shrinks. We don’t see that we have options. And so we slip into our automatic reaction, which for you might be to stay in a situation even if it’s uncomfortable.

Yes, it’s about admitting to your self that I have options. I can skip work, weddings, breakfast or whatever if I want. This really helps, these days it’s one of my main practices to give myself all the options. Maybe even too many. I give it to other people too, it’s like: “Whatever you’re gonna do I will accept you”.

Yes, that’s good – to know that you do have options, and to allow yourself to do what feels right to you, not that what is expected from you. So you’re giving yourself unconditional acceptance. Which is cool!

Maybe even too many.

Well, if you choose to do things that might be hurtful to others, that’s a different story. For example, you promise something to someone and they count on you, and then you change your mind in the last moment leaving them stranded – that would be giving yourself too much leeway. Not having accountability. So that’s already the opposite extreme. But if your actions don’t cause harm to anyone, you absolutely have the right to give yourself options and refuse to do what doesn’t feel right to you.

“Whatever you’re gonna do I will accept you”.

Again, if you give someone a “carte blanche” to take advantage of you, that’s not the best you can do for yourself. You need to protect yourself from toxic people, for example. But if this person is not harming you, then indeed you can give them the freedom to do what they want without feeling offended about it.

There’s more to it, the next step might be that there are boundaries and values added to it. Acceptance and tolerance.

Yes, exactly. You can be both tolerant and accepting and have boundaries. Because a boundary indicates the point where you start feeling violated in some way – when their actions affect you in a negative way. We shouldn’t accept everything, e.g. we shouldn’t accept abuse. Boundaries serve that purpose – to protect ourselves from abuse.

I read that some people can’t say no at all, some options are just not practical even if it would be the right thing to do. I don’t push for it anymore. Like with my mom. I accept it happening or not happening.

You mean you don’t want to set a boundary with your mother, even if it would be the right thing to do? Don’t know if I understood that right…

The first part : “I know how much you’d love to see this movie”, I really want to adopt that. I think it can help making it less scary because there is empathy with autonomy. Yeah, I think I really want to use empathy and autonomy together. That might be powerfull. Autonomy is kinda scary by itself.

Yes, definitely, setting boundaries is best done if you have empathy and understanding for the other person. That’s the point of being assertive: you respect the other person’s needs, but you also respect your own needs.

Autonomy in itself in not bad though. I guess you mean autonomy as in being selfish and self-centered? Not taking other people into account? And yeah, that’s bad.

I think in the broad I mean that somedays I feel connected and then shy again (withdrawl). In romantic relationship’s I get very attached and then I need a lot of space. BPD is overkill. I can connect with the following.

– abandonment is unbearable
– unstable sense of self
– it feels like I can’t be without a person (that’s what it makes hard to leave)

So are you saying that you’re not diagnosed with BPD, but you see some similarities with it in your behavior?

What you’re saying here: “In romantic relationship’s I get very attached and then I need a lot of space. abandonment is unbearable” could indicate that you need a secure attachment with your romantic partner (something you haven’t received from your mother), but you also need a lot of autonomy too, a lot of freedom to be yourself (which again, you were not allowed as a child).

Both of those instincts – to be attached/bonded to someone and to be free to be ourselves – are healthy impulses. They are not or should not be in a contradiction with each other. But in an unhealthy relationship they are in contradiction, because we can’t be bonded if we are being ourselves. As a child, we were rejected if we were ourselves, e.g. if we showed neediness or weakness or whatever our parents didn’t like. So we were conditioned to abandon ourselves.

And it could be that you’re having this struggle within you: how to be bonded to someone and at the same time remain autonomous, remain free to be yourself?

And I get you, de only difference is our mom’s strategy.

What is your mom’s strategy?

Yes, she does. You right, it’s great and a thing to be celebrated. Good to be reminded.

Yes, that’s good news and something to be appreciated. I hope your relationship improves as a result!

Yes, I noticed that I answer questions which are more specific. I think she needs to connect and in this moment and does not know how.

Oh I see… so you think that she wants to genuinely connect and have a deeper relationship with you, but doesn’t know how, since her previous patterns were not healthy? But now, as she is working on herself, she wants to change that?

Hi Beni,

sorry for the late response, I am on holidays and am not spending much time at the computer. Also am having some health issues, which are bogging me down, so I am not in my top form…

Yes, I listen to the audiobooks many times and close to everything on youtube. It’s a great tool. I really enjoy to text with you Tee. It’s nourishing and you have a harmonious way to do it. How did you learn it?

Thanks Beni. I’ve never really learned NV communication per se, just always tried to understand the other person’s point of view and put myself in their shoes. That always helps have more compassion and understanding. And I’ve been a good listener too, always asking people how they are, inquiring about them. But I have to admit, now that I am suffering from health challenges, it’s not always easy because I have to deal with my own pain and have less capacity to deal with other people’s pain.

Yes, that’s true I tend to stay. Ah, I haven’t made that connection yet that this exact situation means that I’ am stressed.

Glad you’re noticing it now – that when you feel you don’t have options, it’s actually a stress response, not the reality of the situation. So in those situations, try to slow things down (e.g. do some slow deep breathing), and give yourself time to answer.

I mean, if someone asks you something you don’t necessarily want to do, you don’t have to give your answer immediately. You can say you have to check your calendar and will let them know later, or something to that effect. And then you can process your upset when you’re alone, and then when you’re calmer, you can decide whether you want to go or not. Keeping in mind that you don’t have to please everyone and that “if you meet someones needs against your own needs, everyone is gonna pay for it“.

I think I know what you mean. Being loyal and standing true to your word. I belief the most important is the intention behind, what if I do it out of fear? Which is something I observe.

Yeah, that’s not a good motivation. If you do things you don’t want to do out of fear of being rejected, that’s not a healthy place.

I think somethings I might have to “mess up” to learn by doing and to reconnect. I belief that’s where the fear is coming from. I did not understand why I had to do things and was manipulated into being afraid instead of showing me why it is important and valuable. I had to them to be accepted.

You mean your parents intimidated you into doing something which is otherwise important and valuable (e.g. visit a sick grandmother), and you felt pressured to do it? Whereas if they would have explained, you would have done it more gladly?

It just occurs to me that we need to first have compassion for ourselves, and only then can we have compassion for other people. If we are forced to do something while our own needs are not taken into consideration, what we’ll feel is anger and resentment. And then even if something is worthwhile and kind (such as visiting our sick grandmother), we’ll see it as a burden and have resistance towards it. Not sure if you relate to this?

I want to do it in a way which nourishes the connection rather than drains it. I can communicate it in the way we spoke about earlier.
I need to be very careful who I do this too because if I mess up with someone I trust that does not have the capacity it can break my heart.

I’m just thinking that I want to ask people to do this in a more playful way. It’s actually too scary to do it in real life. I feel that the effects would be similar when played. In the end I think it’s about to learn to take things less personal and that it’s okay when people get angry. (Mom and Dad still love me even if they’re angry).

Well, we can’t please everyone. It sounds like you’re afraid that if you say No, people will get angry and you can’t bear that. Actually, there might be people who will get angry with us if we set boundaries – because they’ve learned to abuse us and exploit us. But good people – people who are your true friends and who are non-manipulative – will never get angry if you set healthy boundaries. They’ll respect those boundaries. So if you set boundaries and someone attacks you and blames you for that, they’re not a good friend.

I belief acceptance can be above everything. It’s like telling someone: “I don’t like you, go away” also you’re looking into each others eyes saying: “I accept you”. It differentiate here between acceptance and tolerance. Tolerance to me is to say go away.
If I tolerate people which act out of my values it closes my heart somehow. If I don’t accept them it makes me loose myself and I loose compassion to the other person. It feels like I betray myself. Can you help me to understand this?

I hear what you’re saying. You want to be loving to everyone, you don’t want to close your heart to anyone, right? And you feel you need to close your heart to people if you want to set boundaries?

This might be if those people are manipulative and can’t just accept your boundaries, but blame you for it. And so you start feeling angry with them and inevitably you close your heart, because it hurts to be blamed…. Is that what is happening?

Thanks for handing this back to me. I’d like to set boundaries with my mother. What I mean is that often the best I can do is, do it in ways which are not nourishing and make her feel rejected. I only want to do it in ways which are more harmonious, if I have the capacity to do it.

Do you feel she is blaming you and guilt-tripping you if you set boundaries? Because that’s what might cause you to feel rejected, and you might want to go against your wishes and do it anyway, because you don’t want to hurt her?

When I make me do it, it actually feels like the thing I talked above when I write “self betrayal”, “making me do things I don’t want to do”. It has to do with the impulse to do things perfect even if it’s against my boundaries.

Yeah, it could be that you do betray yourself because if you’re being yourself, you get blamed and rejected, and you don’t want that. We as children are totally dependent on our parents. And so we often betray ourselves because we need to stay in the relationship – it’s a survival instinct. And we keep that in our adulthood too.

So you might be doing something similar with you mother – desperately wanting to stay in the relationship and feeling that the only way to do it is if you betray yourself? (or at least that’s how it was the past?)

Yes, I mean it in a selfish way. I remember quite some situations where I do it in a selfish way. I’d choose this words for it. I do it to cope with the fear of loosing autonomy.

Sometimes we believe we’re selfish (or people accuse us of being selfish) if we want to respect our own needs. People pleasers believe they are selfish whenever they say No to anything. So I would reevaluate those instances where you felt you were selfish. Maybe you said it in an angry tone and lacking diplomacy, but your basic impulse was to protect yourself and your own needs?

My minds great in finding every way my doing can hurt other people and it’s getting better at recognize healing things I do.

Yeah, it seems you are very careful not to hurt people. But sometimes people will be hurt because you’re not letting them to take advantage of you any more. In reality, you’re not hurting them, but they might still accuse you of hurting them…. so that’s a challenge you’ll need to deal with.

Wow, this is bigger than I thought. It feels like this is connected with why it’s rather difficult to organize meetups with people. I need connection and I know how to get connection without empathy. Hihi, to get connection without empathy. That sound like a crooked and painful concept.

I think that real, genuine connection can’t exist without empathy on both sides. If you care about people, but they don’t care about you or your needs, that’s not real connection. With some people we just can’t have a genuine connection, because they don’t have empathy or understanding for us, but rather, they want to manipulate us or take advantage of us. I don’t know if this has been your experience, but I am just saying: it’s impossible to be open-hearted and unguarded with everyone because some people will take advantage of that.

Yes, “schnieef”. I connect to the words you write. Again connection and autonomy

Yes, we need to have both. We shouldn’t sacrifice ourselves in order to stay in an abusive or manipulative relationship.

My mom thinks everything is her fault and her responsibility.

But it seems she somehow shifts (or used to shift) a part of that blame on you? Or you felt sorry for her because she seemed helpless, she was pitying herself (you said she was in the martyr role) – and so you gave up on yourself so she would be less upset and less miserable about her own life?

I wanted to say that in this situation she does not know how to meet her needs yet and what I think she really needs.
I think she’s working on herself. She’s not reaching out to me.

Good. If she’s learning how to meet her own needs, rather than expecting you to do that, that’s a good sign. I hope she’ll keep working on herself and also that you’ll be able to set better boundaries with her, not feeling selfish for doing that.