Hi Beni,

thank you too, it’s a pleasure to talk to you.

Yes, I think I’m in some transition phase.

Good, you definitely have a lot of self-awareness, you’re very observant of yourself. And you’re understanding your old patterns and trying to respond differently in some situations. Which is great! It’s a slow change, but that’s totally okay.

You can even tell some people – but only those you trust – that you’re trying to be more open about your feelings and show more vulnerability, and so not to worry about you but simply lend you a listening ear, without needing to fix anything. I don’t know if this would be too much to ask, but anyway, just a suggestion in case it may help you open up even more.

Guess your right, I don’t feel some things there yet. In such situations it’s kinda like I don’t remember my autonomy and I can submit or rebel. It’s not always like this and I am already doing way better than a few years ago. Sometimes I know what I want and it’s scary to say. I want to learn how to say it in a gentle and assertive way.

What I am noticing is that your communication style is very gentle. So I am guessing that you have it in you and that it won’t be that hard to express yourself in a gentle, yet assertive way.

As for the black-or-white reaction (submit or rebel), that’s very typical because those are the only two ways we’ve learned as children. And it’s actually a part of our trauma response (fight-flight-freeze). Fight would be to rebel, flight or freeze would be to submit, I guess.

I think what could help is not to view such situations like an attack – like someone threatening you – but more like someone expressing their preference and you having the right to accept it or refuse it. You having the right to express your own preference.

My experience is that whenever I don’t feel helpless about the situation, the more empowered and less angry I feel. Because I know I have options – I can say no and refuse to do what I don’t want to do. So this gives me a more relaxed attitude about it, rather than triggering the fight-or-flight response, where I feel I need to defend myself from danger.

And then you can be more diplomatic about it, e.g. saying “I know how much you’d love to see this movie, but I really feel tired today and need to get some rest”. So you acknowledge their need, but you also express your own need. That’s how you assert yourself politely and gently. Does that makes sense?

Yap, that’s how it feels like. I watched a video yesterday about borderline personality and thought ah that’s how it feels.

You mean the extremes of feelings that a person with a BPD feels (e.g. first the intense love for someone, then intense hate after the person doesn’t give them everything they ask for)?

I reflect a lot about boundaries these days. I’d like to learn how to set healthy boundaries. I don’t think it’s something I can pretend to have or not to have.

Yeah, you can’t pretend to have boundaries. I mean, we can have too weak boundaries, which can be easily crossed, or too rigid boundaries, where we put up a wall around ourselves. It takes some healing and practice to learn how to set healthy boundaries. And also self-awareness, because you first need to know what is it that you want and don’t want in your life.

I’m not shure what would happen. Memory says it’s dangerous.

I totally get you. I also have a bad experience acknowledging weakness or vulnerability to my mother. It always backfired because she would blame me for my own suffering, telling me that it’s all my fault, or she would later use the information against me, to attack me or judge me in some way. She never showed empathy. So yeah, admitting that I am hurting was always dangerous and traumatic.

It might be alright as she is working on herself too.

Oh really? Is she attending therapy? Because my mother has always refused it – she keeps blaming other people (including me) for her problems.

It’s easy to answer more closed questions, that is something she could do. I also know that in such situations I’d not remember any closed questions.

I’d like to help her, I could ask her what would you like to know?

You mean, when she asks you how you are, but actually has that martyr expression on her face and you know she isn’t really interested in knowing how you are – you think that it would help if you asked her “what would you like to know?” instead of answering a more general question of “how are you?”

Hi Dave,

good to hear from you again, and no worries – you can take as much time as you need. I understand this is not an easy situation and you’re going through a lot at the moment.

I am sorry to hear you’re already selling the family home, which means your wife is determined to proceed with the separation. But at the same time, as you said, it is forcing you to take stock of your life and find who you really are and what you stand for. And that’s super important, because you want to live your life as your authentic self, not someone conditioned to be something you are not.

I am glad you’ve realized that you’ve always seen your wife as superior and better than you. And you’re right, that’s not good for the relationship and kills emotional intimacy (Over time that has eroded the attraction and emotional connection). I guess if we feel inferior and on top of it, feel judged by our partner, we’ll have a hard time opening up and confiding about anything that’s bothering us, because we might fear criticism and further judgment.

I know you said your wife did criticize you for being indecisive and leaving all the big decisions to her. For some women it’s not a problem that they are the “boss” in the family because their husband helps and contributes a lot in other areas, and so they are fine with making financial decisions, buying property etc.

But it seems your wife didn’t like that you’re more of a “follower” than leader, and she looked down on you. That itself might have contributed to the superior/inferior dynamic and created a wedge between you. Because she saw you as not good enough, as not strong and decisive enough, whereas she might have overlooked and not appreciated your other qualities.

I also think me moving into my own place and setting up a separate life will really have a change in my thinking and feelings about myself – I will have to be accountable and responsible and mature enough to make my life and interactions with my children work.

Yes, do try to be a caring and responsible father to your children (as I am sure you have been till now too), and make sure to fulfill your duties, keep all your appointments etc. In other words, don’t allow yourself to go drinking in the bar and then miss your appointments. Sorry if this sounds inappropriate – I am mentioning it only because there were situations in the past where you self-sabotaged by going out and drinking. I know it was to get away from your wife, and that you actually fulfilled your paternal duties. But nevertheless, just saying – keep yourself to his high standard to be a good dad to your children and be there for them maximally.

Maybe we can recover from this and maybe we cant, but either way I have to discover the real me, own it and not deviate from what that looks and feels like – I need to find the strength to be at peace with who I am and what I stand for. I am also concerned in part, that if I get to this point and realize my true self and self worth, I may not want to to go back into the relationship.

Definitely, you need to discover the real you and not compromise it, not diminish yourself to please someone else. But do you think your real self would be unacceptable to your wife? Or that you wouldn’t like some of your wife’s features, once you fully embrace your true self?

I start 8 sessions of individual counselling next week so lets focus on the things I can influence and embrace a voyage of self discovery.

That’s a great plan, Dave. You’re approaching it with great maturity, although I know this whole situation is painful for you. But you finding yourself is the silver lining of this marriage crisis, and so yes, go for it. You’ll come stronger on the other side!

Hi Freddie,

I think I internalised the bullying and teasing out of not wanting rock the boat, look weak

Maybe you believed that you need to be “tough” and take the bullying, because you didn’t want to be seen weak? Also, perhaps you felt excluded because your sisters were sticking together – they were like a “gang” against you alone. So perhaps when you got a little older, in your pre-teens, you sought the company of bigger boys whom you tried to fit in with, and it turned out they ended up bullying you?

My sisters treated my brother as the baby of the family I guess but he was always more confident and sure of himself from a early age so never had my insecurities.

Yeah, our reaction (and our experience of the situation) always depends on our character, even if we were treated the same as someone else. So it’s possible that your brother didn’t take their babying as something negative, as something that diminishes him, while you might have…. In general, you might have been more sensitive to your parents’ and siblings’ treatment, while your little brother was more resilient?

im trying to tell myself that the breakup wasn’t all my fault and that she brought some issues to the table too,

Yes, being secretive about her debts, as well as refusing to participate in her daughter’s life and being secretive about the reasons are definitely major issues that she had…

I’m trying tell myself we wouldn’t have had a kid, or worse like you said had one she couldn’t feel maternal too

Yes, I think she was stringing you along, telling you that “she could see herself having a child with you”, but not really showing any signs that she is interested in having children or that she even wants to be a mother to her own daughter. So I think she never wanted to be a mother, but it was just something she was telling you because I guess she could – you would always back down and drop the subject. Until the moment you got engaged, when it became a burning issue for you and you refused to back down.

It’s just hard letting her go at the moment and I’m still kidding myself that we could work it out

How do you think you could work it out, if she doesn’t want to have children? Would you be willing to drop the subject and agree to a childless marriage?

Hi Freddie,

i have 2 older sisters and a younger brother, I was never bullied or anything by my sisters but I guess they sometimes babied me and maybe saw as their play thing.

Oh I see. You know, it could be that when those supposed friends of yours bullied you, you thought you need to stay strong and not tell your parents, because you would be seen as a baby. So maybe the fact that you were babied and perhaps not taken seriously by your older sisters led you to believe that you’re weak or somehow deficient, and that they are better than you. And not only that, but you silently suffered and kept it a secret from everyone, not to be teased even more?

I do feel inferior to my siblings, they have all done well in life, both my sisters have families of their own. My younger brother has a good career and is financially sound and has a confidence about him that I envy.

How did your sisters treat your brother?

yeah my ex sang my praises, another reason why I’m beating myself and thinking I lost something good. She did shy away from certain topics though, her debt, her daughter and kids. Maybe she bigged me up and showered me with praise to keep me rocking the boat. I do think she genuinely loved me which makes her making such a u turn even harder.

Well, her love was conditional. Everything was fine and rosy until you touched certain topics. I don’t know if she was consciously manipulative, but maybe she did praise you while you behaved the way she wanted you to behave. And when you brought up those sensitive topics, she suddenly shut down and blamed you. This probably made you feel rejected, and you didn’t want that – so you simply dropped those topics.

when we first got together she said she didn’t want kids and we should have worked that out there and then but it was early days and we liked each other so we ignored it. I brought it up maybe 2 years in again and she said she could see herself having a kid with me, but there seemed to always be a reason to delay it, work, new jobs and then marrriage.

Yeah, it does seem she didn’t really want to have kids, but maybe she said that to please you. Or to let her off the hook. But probably she didn’t really mean it. It appears like she was a mother unwillingly and didn’t really want that role. Probably she would have kept delaying it eternally, if you proceeded with the marriage. Or perhaps she would have become an unwilling mother to your child, which is unfortunate. Because it certainly wouldn’t have been good for the child…

Dear Caroline,

I very much tried to not offend her and to not make her feel like she is inferior. But in that situation, I thought, it’s really hard to make someone feel confident, when she was the cleaning lady and I was already working (maybe not earning big money but different sort of job than her). So many times I was really careful to not make her feel like I am better than her.

Did you feel that she felt inferior to you in that period? Did she makes some comments of that nature? For example, did she make you feel guilty because you have a better job and earn more than her?

Me bossing her around was.. I don’t know really.. telling her to make dinner while she was at my place, telling her to pick up a package etc. The least she could do, because 4 days a week she was at home (she cleaned only on 1 day)  and I worked 6 days a week.

Yeah, it doesn’t seem like much to ask, since she had plenty of time at her hands. What is important is how you viewed her: did you view her with respect, regardless of where she works and how much she earns, or you viewed her as beneath you?

I felt bad

You felt bad for asking her to prepare a meal, or pick up a package once in a while, right? It could be that you felt bad because she didn’t do it gladly, she might have indicated that you see her as inferior if you ask that of her?

so I guess when she finally got the job I wanted her to feel better (she had some difficulties at the beginning – actually almost whole first year so I didnt want to brag how my job is going well etc. It’s not that well, I also have issues but I have very little work to do every day so it’s really not bad. )

Okay, it does seem like you were reluctant to say anything positive about your job and your own achievements, because you were afraid it would offend her? That she would see that as bragging?

So my question is: was she actually blaming you for having a better job than her, and so you felt you needed to walk on eggshells around her, not to offend her?

Hi Beni,

Thank you for sharing your experience and I’m glad there are several way’s to have this experience.

you are welcome. That experience was a key to my healing at the time. But I had some other healing work done before that, and I was in therapy too, so it wasn’t the only thing that helped me. But it was the most powerful, I feel.

Yes, that’s exactly why I do it. Thanks for helping me making it present.

I am glad you’re slowly but surely learning to open up and express your needs and your vulnerability. I am happy for you!

Hmm, yes. I’d like to have control on how I’m perceived because I don’t know what I’m doing is happening. I mostly don’t downplay anymore because it creates more confusion.

Right, you didn’t want to appear needy, so the moment you shared something vulnerable, you would backtrack, because you felt people would judge you, or reject you. But now, you don’t downplay it so much anymore, because it created tension and confusion. And I guess as you’re realizing that you don’t need to hide your vulnerability – that you are not less lovable if you show it – you’ll be able to stay with it more and more, even if might feel uncomfortable at first.

I observed the following. When I’m with people with different dialect I adopt it. I can easily be with a group and agree to every activity. I might loose my autonomy with time.
Yes, I tend to tell people what they want to hear. I feel disconnected when I set boundaries. It’s like one or the other extreme only you or only me.

I see. Well, picking up someone’s dialect isn’t such a big problem, but if you find yourself doing something you’d rather not do, that’s already a problem. I guess start paying more attention to how you feel – because if we’re forcing ourselves into something we’d rather not do, we usually feel it in form of frustration and tension in our body (e.g. a pit in your stomach). So perhaps you can take it as a signal for yourself to politely excuse yourself and not participate in the activity they’re inviting you to.

 I feel disconnected when I set boundaries.

Actually, the ability to set boundaries is a precondition for healthy relationships. There cannot be true connection if you’re not honest about what you are and aren’t willing to tolerate. If you have no boundaries, you’ll sooner or later start feeling resentment, and that ruins the relationship.

It’s like one or the other extreme only you or only me.

Perhaps that’s what’s happening to you: you tolerate something for too long (you don’t set any boundaries), and then you snap and suddenly you can’t take it anymore, and you overreact? And you go into the opposite extreme of “only me”?

I think she felt rejected. I do not have space for her pain in this situations because of my own pain.

Fair enough. What if you told her the truth and said something like “mom, I don’t feel that great at the moment.” Do you think she would understand it, or she would downplay your pain and blame you for not being there for her?

Hi Emily,

just a correction to what I said here:

Also, perhaps you work at a place with a narcissistic boss or a narcissistic colleague, who is spreading lies about you and so you find yourself in a similar nightmare like at home.

I’ve read through your posts once again and realized that right now, you work alone, on a contract, because you had a bad experience working in an office, due to people gossiping about you, taking credit for your work etc.

So I guess what I said above should be put in the past tense: you might have worked for a narcissistic boss, or with a narcissistic colleague, who spread rumors about you etc. And they managed to turn everyone against you…

I am so sorry, Emily. It’s good that you don’t work there any more. But I also hear your longing to work among people and be less isolated (But it’s bittersweet, as I really enjoyed working in a team and got on well with everyone else there until the gossiping started. So I don’t have much of a social life these days.)

I do hope you’ll be able to do that some day, in not so distant future. And I trust you can do it, since you said you were able to get along with people quite well, until the gossiping started. Which means you’re able to have fulfilling, harmonious relationships, only not with narcissistic people (which is only natural, because no one can have a healthy relationship with a narcissist).

Dear Emily,

I am not sure how my yesterday’s post affected you, so I wanted to add some clarification.

First, I’ve realized that you may not be able to leave your parents’ home just yet, because you don’t have the resources for that. You did share your struggle with low-paying jobs, and also that you needed to take a break from work in 2019. I don’t know how things are now, but it could be that right now you’re not able to move to a place of your own?

If so, I think it still would be important to not engage in fights with your father, but rather to put all your energy and strength into figuring out how to move out eventually, even if it’s not possible in the near future.

I have a snapping point these days and would happily go to jail if it came to that. He would never hit me now, as he knows I would put him in an early grave and hand myself in.

I guess my stance now is that if I’m going to lose anyway, I’d rather go down fighting and cause them damage too.

Please don’t be telling yourself that you need to fight this battle to extinction. He did cause great damages to you: your health suffered (both physical and psychological), as well as your finances and your career. The lowest point was probably in 2019, when you had a breakdown.

But you don’t have to waste the rest of your life on fighting him and ruining yourself completely. You are 38 years old, and even if you feel older and you said you feel like your life is over – that’s not true.

If you find proper help and remove yourself from your father’s toxic influence, you can recover. In 5 years from now you can have a good job (even run your own business if that’s your game), have a decent partner, and be removed from the nightmare that you’re currently living in.

It is possible, Emily. You don’t need to keep this fight till extinction. Because the only person you are ruining is yourself.

Now for the second point: in my previous post I talked about narcissists, flying monkeys etc. I don’t know how familiar you are with this terminology and if you have considered that your father is most likely a narcissist, and a pretty bad version of it. Those people are capable of ruining one’s life. So you’d need to equip yourself with knowledge and tools how to deal with him, and how to minimize the damage done to you until you can become independent.

What you would need for sure is to get help and meet some normal people, outside of your father’s orbit. Perhaps you can join a support group for victims of narcissistic abuse. Because right now, you said that wherever you go, people treat you poorly and you constantly feel like you need to keep a barbed wire around yourself.

That’s quite possible if you’re surrounded by people in your father’s orbit (the flying monkeys). Also, perhaps you work at a place with a narcissistic boss or a narcissistic colleague, who is spreading lies about you and so you find yourself in a similar nightmare like at home.

You’d need to start meeting different people, because believe me, there are well-meaning, non-narcissistic people out there, but you haven’t encountered many. Or you’ve been busy fighting with the narcissists that you haven’t noticed those other people too much.

If you’d like, I can point you at some resources about narcissism. For example, Dr. Ramani is a well-known expert on narcissism and has a popular youtube channel. She has advice on how to deal with narcissists, as well as flying monkeys, which I think would be super important for you, since you are surrounded by those people.