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SereneWolf
ParticipantDear Tee,
Okay, Iād like to develop this a bit more, but could you give me an example of a situation where your girlfriend didnāt give importance to something that was important to you?
Okay so this mainly happened in LDR. Like when we scheduled an online date together and at last minute, she changes her plans and she be like is that okay if we do it later or some other time? Or like when we decided to watch something together and she be like letās talk instead of movie.
And even though in the start I clearly told her that I like when people keep their word, so if I have to repeat myself, Itād make me angry
And for her it wasnāt much big deal, Sheās like so what itās just a date or a movie Iām like itās not about that, Itās about Keeping your words! I donāt like it when you change it like itās nothing. Because when I tell you something I think three times will I be able to do this on time? Only then Iād say yes. I donāt just say Yes to everything and later just change it. Because if I expect you to keep your words. Iām keeping my words. Simple as that.
And even though she was well aware about this, She was like you’re strict and righteous, yet still she repeatedly did those things. So I was like thatās enough, I wonāt repeat myself again.Hmm.. actually no, you donāt have to be a hopeless romantic, but a hopeful romanticĀ Ā I mean, hope needs to awaken in you that a healthy and fulfilling romantic relationship is possible. Right now, this hope doesnāt existā¦ in its place, there is skepticism and fear, as it seems to me.
Thatās absolutely right! but yeah Hopeful romantic does sounds lot better. Should we start to write movie script on this? šš¤£
Okay, so this probably means you donāt trust people, you canāt view them with appreciation, because youāve been disappointed in themā¦ starting from your parents and grandparents (specially your father and grandfather), to just about every adult you grew up around. Almost nobody appreciated who you really are, but criticized you and expected you to be something youāre not. Would you say thatās true?
Yes thatās true.
If so, I can see a connection between people not appreciating you when you were a child and young adult, and you now not appreciating them. And believing that they would judge and hurt youā¦ And it seems you believe that about your romantic interests as well.
I mean I do currently have lot of people that I admire but like none of them are family members or relatives. And when most of the people who are close to you and when they donāt appreciate maybe thatās why.
Ā
Yeah, talking to the person, gradually getting to know them, is the most natural way. But perhaps you believe that you need to show that youāre brave enough, or cool enough, and so making a āfilm-likeā move on someone is what you think will knock them off their feet? I donāt know, just speculating hereā¦ let me know how you see it?
Hmm I mean not like āfilm-likeā and Iām literally not even enjoying romance movies anymore. Itās a comedy film for me soš
But like you said instead of knowing them gradually, Mostly I get anxious and have this rush to know everything about them, if we vibe or not, I start to notice little things and overthink about it, And even when thereās much less time weāve spend together, I already start doubting on them
And if we do vibe, again I rush even more and expect them have same intensity as me just so I donāt feel like theyāre not putting any effort into this.How is it going with the doctor girl btw? Actually, she made a rather film-like move on you too, proposing to you after only seeing you several times in her office!
Haha yeah sheās lot more action packed in person (As a doctor should be) But because of her work we canāt meet that much and in texting sheās just like.. Haha, Yeah, good.. I feel like Iām pushing her to type things šSo Iām texting her less now. And Iām like the opposite, in texting Iām much more talkative than in person, I mean even if itās a new person. But yeah from my previous date we did talked a lot in person and spent a whole day together so who knows.
Ā
Cool! So no hard feelings on their part, it seems.
Umm no hard feelings? Well there was lot of hurt and feelings and etc. But we didnāt talked for quite a while, gave each time to recover and then just talk as a friend or like āNormal peopleā
Before when my 1<sup>st</sup> LDR girlfriend tried to reach out to me after breakup. I told her that I canāt step down from romantic relationship to just āfriendsā Itās really hard for me and I donāt want to work for it. And she told me that itās not about that but I donāt want to lose a person who impacted my life the most and most valuable to me. So just be in contact time to would make me feel much better. And after some thinking I said Yes to her. Because she also did make me more patient person.Oh okay. So back then you felt youāre not capable of certain things, so you were blocking yourself. And now you donāt have that mental barrier any more, and you take on challenges more easily?
Yes. And Iām still working on it. But like few months ago, I was talking to one of my friend on LinkedIn, Heās quite old actually. He told me something that still makes me thinksā¦
He said that donāt just run towards challenges but build your mindset that way that, Whatever comes to you, itās not even a challenge for you. Just like training mind to be less fearful about whatās coming next challenging. Otherwise just that overthinking takes up energy in the present moment and impacts your performance. So Since then Iām learning ways for how to manage or preserve that energy in efficient way.SereneWolf
ParticipantDear Tee,
Unfortunately yes, the better they are, the less available they are. I think a good pace for therapy is once a week or maybe once in 2 weeks. If youāre seeing your therapist only once a month, it might not be enough.
Yeah definitely! And She gives lot of hard homework to do. Gives her more time.
Oh thank you for your kind words!
Well, you deserve it!
Ā
I think you said the reason you started resenting them (or one of the reasons) was that they didnāt pay enough importance to what was important to you. But instead of telling them it bothers you, you were just sulking silently and didnāt want to talk to them. You blamed them for āmaking you feel that wayā and expected them to fix the problem, without ever telling them whatās bothering you. So, this is what I said that you should change.
So when you ask:Ā Thatās mainly becauseĀ I donāt express emotions clearly but more in complex way. Right?Ā ā itās more like you donāt say whatās bothering you (you hide your real feelings), and instead, you expect them to guess whatās bothering you and make amends. Is that how it usually happens?
Yes that what happens!
This sounds like rationalization: it could be that youāre afraid of feeling āin loveā again (like you did in your first 2 relationships), because it was very frustrating and energy draining for you. And so youāre guarding yourself from that feeling, because you donāt want to feel all the āside-effectsā of feeling in love again. When you think of being in love, you immediately think of the āside effectsā, and itās just cools you down immediately and makes you feel āmehā. Maybe this is whatās happening?
Yes I think so. I believe I may have to be hopeless romantic again š
Ā
But it could be that youāre in awe with animals, plants and nature in general, but much less with people?
This is so accurate!
Because youāre afraid of people, you believe theyāll hurt youā¦ specially people very close to you, such as your romantic partner. So maybe you donāt see the other person with the same awe and appreciation like you see the night sky, for example?
Yup definitely!
Yeah, itās usually not a good idea to make a move on someone on the busĀ Ā Because you havenāt even talked to her, and then out of the blue, you showed her the text saying you liked herā¦ which is a bit too muchā¦ Next time, try a more gradual approach (even if itās on a bus) try talking to the girl, engage her in a conversation, and see if sheās responsive or she feels uncomfortableā¦
Thanks for the good tip. Maybe next time when I find someone I want to go on a date with, Iāll ask you what kind of move should I make. I find those things to be very complex. Like you said just normally talking is better, But I was just making lot of different scenarios how it should workš
Alright, so you agree that your outer critic could be a defense mechanism against vulnerability. Okay, so keep that in mind next time when you start having critical thoughts about the girl youāre dating, and start feeling that she should changeā¦
Yes Iāll practice more mindfulness on this one as well
Btw itās interesting that you could talk about this to your ex. Does it mean you ended the relationship on good terms?
I ended my every romantic relationship in the past on good terms. So yeah, we still talk sometimes. Not to all of my exs. But this recent one and the one before this one.
Ā
Hmm.. I got the impression that you were pushing yourself to do more and faster all the time. That you werenāt telling yourself to just relax, but quite the opposite?
I mean few years back when I just started working.
SereneWolf
ParticipantDear Tee,
Haha, Iāve been talking to you longer and much more frequently than your therapist, thatās why
Haha True š
But that’s the cons for a good therapist, right? If they’re like really good at what they do, They don’t have enough time for all of their clients. But yeah this world needs more people like you šThatās good! Itās nice that you could freely share that part of yourself, and that they werenāt judgmental at all.
Yes but that after like I have enough trust in them.
Yeah, that part youād need to changeā¦
Thatās mainly because I donāt express emotions clearly but more in complex way. Right?
Rightā¦ well, your heart is probably very guarded. And you probably donāt allow yourself to feel much because youāre afraid of where it may lead you. So far relationships were always a disappointment and a cause of frustration, so youāre very very careful.
Hmm thatās right Iām feeling like Iām not able feel the way that I felt in my first or second relationship. So feeling of Love is just meh for me. And I think that feeling of love (Not just romantic) is really important. It gives that warmth and give you the perspective to look everything around you with love and kindness. I know my heart is full of love, for sure! But what the point if itās this much guarded and closed.
And also, you said that so far it was always that the girl approached you. You never made the first moveā¦ But did you ever like a girl but were afraid to approach her?
Oh well yeah fear of rejection and anxiety just hits me hard sometimes. Specially if I have to do things face to face. And like after starting this thread I did tried to approach a girl once (I was talking to Anita that time) and I still remember it vividly. We were on the bus sitting next to each other and It took like me 2 hours to approach but I was crazy I didnāt talked, I was all sweaty and anxious, I typed it my phone notes app and showed it her. And She said Iām engaged. After that in my head I was like āoh well I proved my point I did asked her. Now look at the window and just listen to Spotify. Donāt you dare turn your face towards herā š¤£š¤£š¤£
I havenāt tried after that, Most of the time Iām attracted to girl whoās like āOut of my leagueā So Iām like why risk? this also could be self-esteem issue because I compare even though I know that all humans just have different preferences. And funny enough most of the girls who did approach was actually āOut of my leagueā But yeah once Iām comfortable and vibe with someone itās lot easier for me. I need to find smart & creative solutions about this š
Hmm more or less yes I think.. But Iāll still think about it more and let you know
Okay so Iāve asked this to one of the girl I was in LDR with and she told me I did kind of acted critical and superior but never judgmental. I asked one of my close friend too and she said the same thing. So yeah after gathering the data I can say Yes.
Ā
Really good to hear this. Youāre right ā there is no growth and fulfillment in life without facing our fears, so yes, youāre on the right track.
Yes but taking those first steps with the different fears thatās important thing. To at least start you know at least thatās what I think.. Like for leadership roles I used to think why would I take this much responsibility? Thatās just crazy. Just work on what you have and relax. So even though I had the skills I was just running away and not striving towards my true potential. Like no Iām not able to do it. Thatās just not me. But now I know what growth mindset could do.
SereneWolf
ParticipantDear Tee,
Yes, you have. Iāve mentioned the inner child healing again, because it seems to me like we might be getting closer to understand the key wound of your inner child, which is lack of self-esteem and the fear of being judged. If deep down you still believe youāre not good enough, or not worthy enough, then this might be why you donāt want to be āseenā.
I believe weāre getting closer too. Heck youāre even more efficient and resourceful than my current therapist š
Very much so! In the Bible, itās called the sin of omission ā the failure to do something which was right and necessary. For me as a child, my fatherās silence was very damaging, because I had no one to defend me. So in my mind, it meant that my motherās judgments of me were true and that indeed, there is something terribly wrong with me.
Oh no wonder it contributed to lack of your self-esteem like my childhood
All of the above. Also, share your hopes and dreams without fear of being ridiculed, for example. Let them know if something hurts you (rather than giving them silent treatment). Let them know if youāre worried about something, discuss your feelings, rather than stuffing them and pretending that everything is okay. Let them know what you need from them, rather than expecting they should read your mind.
I think in my previous relationships I did that lot less or rarely. I did share my hopes and dreams without fear of being ridiculed. Because Iām kind of confident about talking about something that Iām passionate about. And I never felt that they are judging my hopes or dreams just because itās not same as some other people. But like silent treatment was like my main trait. And instead of discussing I just expected them to solve it because I be like itās their fault, they made me feel this way. So now itās their responsibility.
Well, youāve got a strong inner critic, which so far you were mostly aware related to your career (e.g. you were scolding yourself for not doing enough work, or for lagging behind in your career goals, etc). So, the inner critic was quite obvious in your career, and youāve been doing some important things recently to lessen his impact: youāve learned how to have more self-compassion and stop pushing yourself to do more and faster all the time (i.e. youāve lessened the impact of the ādrill sergeantā). Youāve lessened the impossible expectations on yourself, work-wise.
Thanks for the positive progress reminders. I think for self-compassion itās only starting but thanks to mindfulness Iām able to see some progress. Also thanks to you obviously š
In your relationships, Iād say that so far the outer critic was more pronounced (more than the inner critic), because youāve been mostly critical about the girls you were with and finding faults in them. But it could be that this outer critic is just a defense mechanism, which allowed you to not go deeper with a girl, to not show yourself really. A defense mechanism against true intimacy. Because if you judge someone and feel superior to them, you donāt really want to be vulnerable with them. As you noticed it yourself, it kills the chance for intimacy:
Oh thatās right! Thatās what I was thinking all along.
But that makes me think likeā¦ Is that why my heart feels in like neutral gear now? I donāt know how to explain because for so long I havenāt actually shared my heart and have a real intimacy. So even though now that doctor girl is good, I still donāt feel like anything much for her. Maybe just a little attraction but nothing more.
Ā
Yes, if there is this superior-inferior dynamic going on, the distance increases and intimacy becomes impossible. Thatās why I am thinking that your outer critic (which is this superior, judgmental, critical persona that you tend to put on in romantic relationships) could be a defense mechanism against vulnerability. This āpersonaā serves to protect your inner child from being seen and being hurt. This could be the shield around your heart that we were talking aboutā¦. What do you say? Do you think itās possible?
Hmm more or less yes I think.. But Iāll still think about it more and let you know
Yes, itās a good way to look at it ā not to feel like a victim, but rather, see our childhood as something that shaped us but also something that we can grow from and transcend. I donāt know if youāve heard about it, but there is a Japanese art of kintsugi ā repairing broken pottery with gold. The idea is that our ācracksā, i.e. our wounds and painful experiences can make us beautiful, if we manage to heal them and integrate them into our life.
Right! and thatās really interesting and awesome concept to know about. Love it!
Actually yes, we can learn and grow from challengesā¦
Absolutely! I mean thatās why weāre all here for
Ā
Well, inner peace is important, but I think if we want to achieve it by hiding from the world, hiding from challenges, then itās not the real thingā¦
Yes I agree. And I think before starting all this I just used to run away from the uncomfortable situations and emotions. But without facing we canāt actually understand the root and heal it. But as I started to face things head on my resilience got better and better and I did overcome some of my past fears. Still have to work on some fears but yeah
SereneWolf
ParticipantDear Tee***
SereneWolf
ParticipantDear SereneWolf,
Yes, and the imprint is carried by the inner childā¦ thatās why it needs inner child healing.
I told you about my CEN (Childhood Emotional Neglect) Right?
Ā
Well, my father had his own emotional wounding related to his mother. I think he was trying to get love and validation from his emotionally distant mother. He repeated that in the relationship with his wife, i.e. my mother. So he always tried to āpleaseā and āappeaseā my mother, and he never wanted conflict with her. It was important for him that my mother isnāt angry with him. That was his priority, not my well-being or even his own well-being. And so he stayed silent and endured what he shouldnāt have endured.
Ohh I see. So just enduring silently could be pretty damaging as well.
With your mother, there could have been also cultural factors at play, maybe that women shouldnāt object to their husbands? So perhaps that contributed to your mother staying silent?
Yes totally agree! Old beliefs!
I seeā¦ yes, if youāre missing a deeper sense of self-worth, itās very likely related to that incessant criticism that youāve heard from your father and grandfatherā¦.
Even now? Even though I donāt focus much on what they say. Even if itās the past wound. Iāll have to build strong sense of self-worth again. Iām done feeling worse about myself! And also because itās something stopping me from being compassionate with myself.
Rightā¦ because the closest relationships for you were a source of stress and humiliation, not a source of encouragement and support. And also broader relationships werenāt too supportive either, because as youāve said, it was all about rivalry and who is more accomplished, who makes more money etc. No wonder you didnāt want to show any vulnerability, or your true self.
Exactly!
But do you know what Henry Cloudās definition of intimacy is?Ā Intimacy = into me see.
We need to allow the other person to see us, to seeĀ intoĀ us, otherwise there can be no intimacy and no real relationship.
What a great way to explain! I agree with that. But like what does it mean to let them see into us? Does it mean let them know what weāre thinking without judging, without fear of criticizing, and also being vulnerable or something more?
It could be that your inner child is still afraid to be seen, because he believes heās not good enough, not worthy enough? But if you can truly believe that youāre good enough and have so many good qualities, and that you donāt need to be perfect (unlike your parents and grandparents told you!)ā¦ then you might allow another person to āsee into youā. As weāve talked about before, you donāt need to spill out all your deepest secrets on the first date, just maybe share one vulnerable thing and see how she reactsā¦
Yes maybe this inner feeling not being worthy is damaging me for so long that I lost track of my own self.
Right! One step at a timeI said it because you mentioned earlier that you fear they might judge you for your spontaneity:
I mean with my parents I still do, but not with my romantic interests.
Ā
Good! I guess you can now be more mindful while dating and observe yourself, and notice if the fear arisesā¦ which is already a big step!
Thanks for giving me hope though. I was about to give up if I didnāt find out its not only about dating but itās much more deeper thing to resolve.
Today I listened to this podcast and it had an interesting concept about childhood trauma. Like today pretty much every one have some issues related to childhood that they need to address and work on. But instead feeling like a victim. Being mindful in the present and accept that and he quotes from the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna said: “Whatever happened, happened for the good; Whatever is happening, is happening for the good; Whatever will happen, will also happen for the good only.ā
Just think about it like if everything went perfectly would you have this drive to improve yourself and work on yourself every day? Probably not. So itās like bitter and sweet things mixed cocktail which is fun thing about life and thatās what makes it interesting and worth living not just like a raw water.
Makes me think that striving for this inner peace is nothing less than a great war against ourselves.SereneWolf
ParticipantDear Tee,
Good that youāve realized it at a relatively young age! But the imprint stayed, and so their perfectionism became your own perfectionist inner critic. Which is telling you that youāre not good enough, not accomplishing enough at work, not earning enough money etc etc. Itās sad that both your father and grandfather were perfectionists, so you received a double dose of criticism.
Yes the IMPRINT! Thatās the thing Iām working on
Not only that, but it seems there was no male role model who could have served as a positive father figure (āMy neighbors are like that, older relatives etc because they grew up in competitive environmentā). So you were surrounded by bad role modelsā¦
Yes exactly! And as we talked recently now I realized how good it is to be surrounded by good and supportive role models
Ā
Rightā¦ so for your grandfather, it seems you were a tool to boost his vanity and pride. He boasted to others with your accomplishments, while at the same time he wasnāt really proud of you, but kept criticizing you. I can see how damaging it was for you, and how toxic. I understand why you wanted to get away ASAPā¦
Yes and at that time I was like Iāll make him proud of me. But later I realized that his pride and ego are much toxic
Itās good you werenāt criticized by your mother and grandmother. However, I get the feeling that they didnāt protect you from your fatherās and grandfatherās criticism either. Your mother told you to take your fatherās criticism silently and āmaturelyā, so basically she never challenged your father to change his approach. My father never protected me from my motherās criticism either. Thatās why the damage done by my mother was much bigger than it should have been. Because my father allowed the abuse and didnāt say anything. I think something similar happened to you too?
Yes I can say thatās really similar what happened to me. But what do you think what stopped your father and my mother from protecting us?
Yeah, and I think there is even a difference between self-esteem and self-confidence. Self-esteem is a basic sense of self-worth (which doesnāt depend on any skill that you possess), whereas self-confidence is related to various skills we have. Say a professional athlete may have a lot of self-confidence that they are good at sports, but once they get injured, they may feel worthless because their self-esteem was based on their skills and not on a deep inner sense that they are worthy as a person.
Perhaps you too feel self-confident is some things, but what is missing is a deeper sense of self-worth, of being worthy simply because you exist?
I totally agree with you! I do feel like Iām missing deeper sense of self-worth. And recently quite a lot
Ā
Right.. and it seems to me that youāre very cautious with relationships not only because of your fatherās (and grandfatherās) criticism, but also because you werenāt protected enough by your mother. So relationship might seem like a very scary thing, where no one is on your side?
Right! and thatās the reason why I also still have fear of commitment. It feels so scary.
Ā
Okay, youāre afraid to be judged by your partner. So to protect yourself, you rather judge her and make her seem deficient, so to feel less vulnerable? Like, you first judge her before she can judge you?
Hmm may not like whoās first but like because I tried to kind of make the relationship and the person āPerfectā like we talked about empathy before. I used to directly run for the fix instead of empathizing first.
Okay, so you donāt want a relationship to be a competition and a power struggle. You hate it.
EXACTLY!
And thatās why youād rather not go into it. But the problem is that a part of you believes that relationshipĀ isĀ a power struggle. Or at least that being in a relationship means being judged, criticized and hurt. That you canāt show your weaknesses, or even your spontaneity (like dancing while cooking lunch) without being criticized. Right?
Yes being vulnerable and showing weakness as well as opening up as I should be thatās something I need to work on.. and I believe Iām little better than before in that regard.
For spontaneity I donāt feel criticized. Because in my previous relationships I received lot of good compliments about it and I myself believe that without spontaneity relationships are much less fun.. Because Iām someone who gets bored pretty quickly
And if you approach relationships from that vantage point (which is a vantage point of fear), then I think itās better not to date. Because youāll likely get more of the same. But if you work on slowly dissolving that fear, on realizing why itās there and then dissolving itā¦ thatās when you open yourself to a different kind of dynamic in a relationship. To a possibility of a healthy relationship.
I want to get out from this fearsome repetitive cycle. So, I will date and experiment till I have the success.
That would be my answer to your question whether youāre ready to date (You think Iām ready? Or I still need lot of healing even to start dating someone?). I think youāre ready to date if you can let go of some of that fear of judgment in the relationship. We can talk more about it, if youād like toā¦
Yes we can talk more about it since Iām still confused even so that Iām being mindful about myself. Itās still makes me overthink
I have a funny example about fear of judgement. So the date I told you about (Before the doctor) I was in hurry, I took a shower I get ready and forget to put the deodorant and just went out. And when she started being touchy and huggy with me I realized heck I forget the deo and instead of being in the moment and even though I knew that sheās not thinking about that I smell, But in my head I was like donāt let come near too much now because of your mistake now sheād take you as someone who doesnāt even groom himself properly. And I was actually trying to be less touchy with her just because of this overthinking and fear š
SereneWolf
ParticipantI looked it up for what CTPSD means.
And not all, But many things are related. I’m actually surprised!
- difficulty controlling your emotions – Yes
- feeling very angry or distrustful towards the world – No
- constant feelings of emptiness or hopelessness – Frequent (Nowadays)
- feeling as if you are permanently damaged or worthless – Mostly
- feeling as if you are completely different to other people – Yes more or less
- feeling like nobody can understand what happened to you – Yes
- avoiding friendships and relationships, or finding them very difficult – Yes
- often experiencing dissociative symptoms such as depersonalisation or derealisation – Yes
- physical symptoms, such as headaches, dizziness, chest pains and stomach aches – Less Frequent
- regularĀ suicidal feelings. – No
SereneWolf
ParticipantDear Tee,
In fact, I am thinking now that their biggest mistake as parents wasnāt excessive worry (because you sort of gave them the reasons to be worriedĀ Ā ), but rather, it could be the criticism and judgment that you grew up with. Feeling constantly criticized (e.g. your father was very harsh with you when you didnāt hand him the proper tool right away), always compared to others, perhaps always feeling that something is wrong with you and that youāre not good enough? Like, being seen not with loving, accepting eyes, but with strict, judgmental eyes, who always evaluate you and seek a reason to criticize you?
I totally agree like you mentioned (and even others told me) I was resourceful and pretty much self- reliant. But the thing is that for my parents and grandparents they never saw that as my good accomplishments. They were always like look what he did at this age? Look what he accomplished?Ā Mainly my grandfather and father (Both are very “perfectionist” nature) So instead of praising they were criticizing me and that made me realize that no matter what I’ll do I wouldn’t be good enough for them. (I realized that years ago) And after that not spending that much time with them, I think they already see me as someone not “inclusive” in the family. Because they be like whatever they think is the only truth and I didn’t like that. My siblings felt the same way as well. But I believe it’s not their fault. My neighbors are like that, older relatives.etc because they grew up in competitive environment. and time when over-achievers were praised and also by that I mean who’s earning more. and Fast! another reason for my impatient behavior sometimes
This seems to me the greatest wounding that youāve experienced. Iāve experienced the same from my mother. She took my good results at school for granted, never praised me for that, and at the same time she looked for every opportunity to scold me. There was always something wrong with me, in her eyesā¦ and so I grew up with the belief that there is something fundamentally wrong with me. My self-esteem was zero.
Yes, I can totally relate! I know that feeling, but it must have been hard for you. In my case it was my grandfather. And even though I had good grades, It wasn’t enough! I felt literally pressurized to be in the Top 3 students! and yet I still made it as a Top 1st student till the end of high school. Just to feed their ego. So he can talk others like “look my grandson has always been the 1st”. But Because my mother and grandmother never criticized me for that and just loved me without any expectations from me. so It was kind of sane place for me. Otherwise, I swear I’d have to run in the jungle much earlier and never return. And sometimes I think how self-confident, fearless and full of hope kid I used to be. Because of the criticized father and my inner criticism over the years my self-confident and self-esteem is still quite low, and it did affect my career and relationships quite a bit. So I still have to work on my self-esteem and self-confidence.
The above is the excerpt from Pete Walkerās book āComplex PTSD: From Surviving to Thrivingā. It could be that you felt very unsafe and criticized when you showed vulnerability or weakness in front of your parents. This might have given you the message that being anything less than āperfectā means being judged and rejected. It also might have led you to believe that the person you are in the relationship with is there to judge you and criticize you.
To the degree that our caretakers attack or abandon us for showing vulnerability, to that degree we later avoid the authentic self-expression that is fundamental to intimacy.Ā The outer critic forms to remind us that everyone else is surely as dangerous as our original caretakers.Ā Subliminal memories of being scorned for seeing our parentsā support then short-circuit our inclination to share our troubles and ask for help.ā
Would you say this is true for you? I have more to say and Iād also like to answer your questions, but let me know if the above resonates with you?
Yes I believe I can resonate. Ā Because those lines hits me. As you know in my previous relationships, I wasnāt being my true self and shielded my heart.
You might even subconsciously believe that this is what relationships are all about: competition, who is better, who is more successful, who is more āperfectā. If so, you naturally want to either win in that competition (be the āmore perfectā one, and judge the other person for her supposed deficiencies), or you want to leave the competition altogether (not be in a relationship at all).
Okay so Iām not sure if my subconscious mind believes in that but Iām sure that my conscious mind doesnāt believe competition in the relationships. It was mostly fear of judgments, criticism and inability to express my emotions properly.
or you want to leave the competition altogether (not be in a relationship at all).
This part could be true though. Conscious and subconscious both levels
SereneWolf
ParticipantDear Tee,
Is that Romanian? Had to look it up but am still not sureā¦
Haha Yes
Oh I see, it was recent. What would they argue with you? That you shouldnāt take swimming classes because itās dangerous?
My mom was scared because in past my little brother had an accident at the river but luckily saved. I was with him that time and I didnāt knew swimming either. So itās like swimming and river are past fear for her..
Yeah, it does seem they are a little overprotective. I wonder how theyāve survived you leaving home at the age of 16 and living alone, if they are so worried about you even to this day? How did they even allow it?
Omg yeah It wasnāt easy! and they tried lot of things to make me stay. But I was really stubborn about it and figured every answer to their worries. And still, theyād call me every day for more than two months.
Yeah, and there might be a similarity with how your parents acted with you (and are still acting with you). Overprotective, trying to control you (although not succeeding), and doing it āfor your own goodāā¦
Oh you know what this could be right! š
Yes, it does seem like thatā¦ that you tend to behave in romantic relationships a little bit like your parents behave with youā¦
Yeah, need to break this pattern.
Yeah, itās pretty destructive for the relationship if you see the person as ālackingā and try to make them āperfectā. The person feels not good enough, whereas you put yourself in a superior position, and basically judge and criticize them for āunderperformingā. Of course, you can say itās all with a good intention, āfor their own goodā, but itās not a healthy, equal relationship.
Yes, and it makes them feel inferior which makes things even worse. Because they donāt feel much comfortable after that. Eg. āShare their true selfā And as the comfort decreases, means the distance is just increasing. Right?
In a healthy relationship, we accept the person as they are ā we donāt try to change them and mold them into something that we would like them to be. It doesnāt mean we need to tolerate and accept some of their bad habits, however fundamentally we donāt try to change the person to be something they are not. Itās like we look at them with love and acceptance, not with a measuring stick that says ānot good enoughā.
Yes I totally agree with you! But my critical self just tried to look what they can do better? Just like I did with myself.
Yeah, no wonder, because itās like youāre in a war with the person, trying to make her do what you think is right for her, and she wouldnātā¦ And maybe you think she doesnāt love you if she resists, if she has different priorities and preferences than you? And so you conclude itās not worth the trouble because things canāt be the way you want them to be?
Yeah so thing is that I did felt like they donāt care about me anymore because they donāt prioritize the same things. And after that Iām like well Iām doing this many things for them, Iām prioritizing them but If they donāt care why should I? I could be 10x colder than them (Crazy I know) and I did end my relationships in Iād say extreme anger. I felt it but I didnāt express that anger. I just wrote the letters that this isnāt working out and I donāt want it like this anymore. After that like we talked about āEmotional dependencyā, And I feel like I donāt need anyone to depend on.
Yes, it seems some of your friends tell you you need to āplay the gameā, which makes it look like some kind of competition, like who is going to outsmart whomā¦ Whereas a healthy relationship is not a competition, but a loving and supportive co-existence (or something like that, I canāt think of a better definition now).
Exactly! But I think it should be from both ways, right? It canāt work if Iām the only one being vulnerable and try to communicate clearly as possible. Or it could be same effect if I do that, But I think it depends.. Iām working on my heart shield, It doesnāt mean others wanna put out theirs
I imagine you havenāt had a healthy relationship so far, because of those emotional wounds and programming that stem from your childhood. So no wonder you fear more of the sameā¦ But what youāve experienced so far isnāt what a true relationship looks like. Trust that you too can have a healthy relationship, but youād need to heal some of your patterns before thatās possible.
I agree with you. You think Iām ready? Or I still need lot of healing even to start dating someone? I think now my goal should is being comfortable in dating first, So I donāt feel intimated quickly. You know what I mean? Also like just feel more confident around women and see all as equals.
Well, not particularly, I did get flowers from my husband. But weāve never really paid attention to that date, so I donāt consider it important. But we do have a very good and strong relationship, and thatās what matters most
Youāre right! Iām really happy for you š¤
And I wanted to ask… Weāre talking about already healthy and established relationshipā¦
But what can I do for just start the dating? Because tbh I still feel very new to all theseā¦
I mean like the learning the starting? Idk how to explainā¦ Since relationships I had without distance was lot of years ago and I already knew those women well, and they proposed, but I think that time I was really naĆÆve and I didnāt know what I was doing in the relationship.Itās been few days I started to feel hopeless and inferior at work, Just mood swings like that. And Iām feeling this pressure to get back doing productive things, and for a short while I am productive, but I searched, and I found that mood swings like those could be sign of bipolar disorder but Iām not sure. Itās like for a time being Iām feeling really good and after few minutes Iām like what am I doing? And then feel hopeless. Or this kind of things happen to an optimistic person?
SereneWolf
ParticipantBunÄ Tee,
I wish I could tell you I am feeling better, but I am not unfortunatelyā¦ Iāll let you know if thereās some progress finallyā¦
Okay Thanks. My well wishes šš½
Okayā¦ if you share about your own childhood and your own experience, that might have some weight and she might consider it. Also, you can say that nowadays children spend too much time on the internet, and itās not good for their health, so actually nowadays parents should encourage their children to go play outside and not try to keep them indoors.
This occurred to me because Iāve recently seen a cartoon about old and new trends. One of the illustrations shows the Old trend: mother pulling her son back to the house because heās been playing too much outside, and New trend: mother pulling her son out of the house, while he is glued to his smart phone
You always give great examples. Thanks! Iāll talk to her that way since I also think itās the same matter as you said. I do have problem for explaining things properly sometimes (More than I want to admit) So this would be helpful.
Well, if in the past she got worried about you for even as little as headache ā thatās a lot of worrying. Remember, what matters is what happened in your childhood ā thatās the imprint youāre living with ā even if now sheās not worrying that much. What did you do when sheād get worried about your headache, do you remember?
Well yeah past is lot of years so the imprintā¦ I donāt actually remember properly but what I do remember is that I just asked for written prescription to my sister (Sheās nurse) and then sheād be worried less since she is sure that Iāll be taking the medications.
Sure, that amount of worry is understandable, and since you were doing some really wild stuff, itās sort of obvious why you didnāt want to tell herā¦ But you also mentioned that she was worried when you wanted to learn how to swim, in a swimming pool with an instructor (if I remember well?). Thatās a bit of an excessive worry, in my opinion. How old were you then?
It was actually just recently few months ago. I started the swimming classis and after that I told them. So my parents wouldnāt argue with me. Heck theyāre even worried that Iām letting a stray cat inside my place. They be like she might have diseases and blah blah blah.. Iām like Iāll go to the vet and give her vaccination. So, you donāt have to worry about that. Literally no one in my family grown up with a pet. So I did see that coming.
Thing about them as they are scared of the things that they donāt know or experienced before. And Iām the opposite if I didnāt experience that thing, Iād get curious and explore it let alone the outcomes. Thatās why my family thinks that Iām a rebel šSo I was thinking about emotional enmeshment, which I suggested as a possibility last time, but based on everything weāve talked about so far, and how you behave in relationships, I donāt think this is the case with you after all.
Hmm yeah I donāt think soā¦
Youāve talked about this before ā that you get āoverprotectiveā i.e. controlling when you try telling your girlfriend that she should eat healthier, or have better sleeping habits. From what Iāve understood, you donāt just tell her āyou should get more sleep, staying late is bad for your healthā, and then sort of let it go, but you turn into this drill sergeant who is pushing her to eat healthier, sleep healthier, etc. Thatās the same drill sergeant who sometimes turns on you (in the form of the inner critic), and sometimes on the people close to you (in the form of the outer critic).
So it seems to me that the ācareā you show towards your partner has this overlay of criticism. And so you turn into this overprotective, critical father, who is watching his ādaughterāsā every step, trying to āimproveā her. You get so focused on her and her problems, that it consumes you completely and you canāt focus on your own life.
I think this type of dynamic is not emotional enmeshment, but more like that youāre focusing too much on her and her āwellbeingā (but in a bad sense, like an overbearing parent), and then youāre frustrated when she doesnāt want to take your advice. This then is frustrating to you and you rather give up, i.e. leave the relationship.
What do you think? Does this sound plausible?
Hmm I think itās plausible, it does have a connection. And I believe itās been weeks I havenāt awaken the drill sergeant.
But itās right I did act like an overprotective, critical father! Not all the time but stillā¦
And after that I get exhausted and give up on the relationship.
Striving towards Perfection (specially with Humans) isnāt a wise thing to do I guess… and I tried to make them āperfectā the way I wanted even though at that time I just saw it as a care and concerned about their health.
Or is it just like my parent thinks they still have to care about me like even though I’m not a kid anymore…
Yes, it was! But you know you donāt need to accept her marriage proposal, right?
Exactly! No rushā¦ If she wants to rush things, please know that you have the right to say No. Even if she doesnāt like thatā¦
Right haha! No I donāt need to accept her marriage proposal. Iāll still try to communicate clearly as possible.
The other day I was thinking about why I feel the way I feel and I thinkā¦ Like why I donāt have high expectations or even good expectations from the dating. And I could think of the possible reasons
- Iām emotionally exhausted from this
- External environment could be the big reason as well not just my friends but like everywhere I see it just that all be like itās lot of mind games and complex ā not like clear communication as it should be. So yeah itās like a confirmation bias
- The way I perceive my past relationships. Like Did I even had a healthy relationship before that Iām longing for it again?
So because of these reasons, I just feel more hopeless and I just feel not excited for dating. Not more than Maybe just some time spending and physical pleasure.
And yeah what about you? Did you celebrate valentine week?
SereneWolf
ParticipantHi Tee,
You feeling better?
How old is he?
Heās like 7.5 Years old if I remember correctly.
I understand you, seeing yourself in himā¦ be polite though and very diplomatic when speaking to his mother. Parents donāt like to be given advice, unless they ask for itā¦
Yes I know but his mother is good natured and nice with me. So Iāll try to present this matter clear and calmly as possible. Because another thing I noticed is that I think sheās the main decision maker, her husband is naĆÆve and heās mostly saying yes to her. Itās actually funny to see them talking sometimes š
Ā
Yes, thatās typical for codependent relationships. Say if the parent is a worrying type, we try to make them not worry. If they are depressed, we try to cheer them upā¦ because when the parent is unhappy, the child is naturally unhappy too. So we do everything in our power to make them happy. Itās almost like a survival need, because having a happy, care-free parent is in the childās best interest. So weāre trying to regulate the parentās moods, so they could better take care of us.
Okay well thatās a new discovery for me. Until now I thought I only have to deal with my Fearful avoidant attachment style but now Iāll have to work on this one as well. But I donāt actually remember try to regulate my parentās moods, For example whenever my father is angry me and my siblings would just try to avoid him and not face him.
Do you think this was the case with you and your mother? That you felt you needed to make her happy, i.e. regulate her moods? And you felt guilty if she was not happy?
No. Not really. Because I even told her about my hypothyroidism, and she took it well. And in past there was times when even if I have a headache, sheād get really worried.
But as far as I can remember I didnāt tried to regulate her moods.
I do remember you mentioned you donāt like to make your mother worry, so you often donāt tell her if somethingās bothering you. You pretend that everything is fine, and put on that big smile of yours. This could be exactly because of this emotional enmeshment: you can only be happy if sheās happy. And if sheās worrying about you, you canāt be happy?
You said that your two previous girlfriends didnāt really put any constraints on your freedom (I had two different partners who were very accepting yet still I was worried about all these things.). But your guilt of displeasing them is very likely the same guilt you felt about displeasing your motherā¦ itās the guilt felt by your inner child.
I mean which mother doesnāt worry about her Ā kids? So itās obvious that she is worried sometimes and yeah in the past I tried to hide things from my mother because I was scared that sheād be worried because I was still just a high school boy going in wildsā¦ But I think now sheās not worried as before because she can see that Iām a grown up? Iām not sure though. So now I do feel comfortable sharing my things with her as per her level
Ā
Yes, and I believe it has to include separating yourself emotionally from your mother (i.e. your partner). And allowing her to be frustrated (for whatever reason ā be it because of you or unrelated to you), and yet feel good about yourself. Donāt make your mood and the feeling of happiness depend so much on hers.
Because it seems that your tendency is to get emotionally enmeshed when youāre in a relationship. Thatās frustrating and exhausting (and you feel guilty all the time), so you think the only way to prevent it is not to be in a relationship at all. But itās a false cureā¦
Hmm youāre right and what steps I can take for separating myself emotionally?
And Yes allowing someone to be frustrated because of me already seems very unpleasant.
Right I know itās not the cure because few days ago I was talking to one of my friend and she was like I have so much love to give and but Iām not allowing other people to give and receive to myself because Iām not letting close to me emotionally. And without this healthy exchange thereās this void.
Oh and kind of a funny thing happened on valentineās day. One of my friendās doctor proposed me š
There was definitely fight or flight response feeling because It was kind of sudden
But the thing was that I couldnāt say No! I felt like if I say no today sheād feel disappointed and then it would make me feel guilty. But I didnāt said yes either. I mean I said yes for a date. It was really bold move for her. So I was stunned and sheās actually really attractive as well soā¦ I mean here I am thinking about taking a bold move like that for years but š
Itās been like 3 months, and she only knows me because I go to her clinic with my friend every two-three weeks, and sheās actually younger than me.
But to be honest Iām not putting up any high expectations. Go on a date, get to know her a little bit and then maybe somethingā¦
SereneWolf
ParticipantOla Tee*
I addressed myself instead of you šSereneWolf
ParticipantOla SereneWolfĀ
Sure, itās always better to be in or close to a green areaā¦
Also, because it’s just lot easier for evening walks and bicycling!
How come? Is he ill or the family just changed their habits?
Yup. His family is trying to change his habits. Already making him “ready” for “elite” school.Ā Typical. ://
It did make me angry when I found out and even though I shouldn’t be in between but at right time I will talk to his mother. Because it’s like I’m seeing my past in this! and I don’t want him to go through what I’ve been through.
Right, so it seems you got the message that spontaneity, silliness, or rather playfulness (which are the qualities of the inner child) are not good qualities if you want to achieve something in life? And so you did your best to behave yourself, to hide that playful side of yours in front of other people.
Yes kind of…
Perhaps thatās why youāre struggling to show that side of yours to your partner, fearing that you would be judged? Because your parents and grandparents judged it too?
I guess so.. Maybe?
This is what I am reading from your words: that what you cherish the most is your freedom and ability to do whatever you want,Ā without feeling guilty.
It seems youāre very sensitive to your partnerās moods and are worried if she is worried, to the point of not being able to sleep:
hmm Yes that’s right…
What youāve described is similar to being co-dependent: your mood depends on your partnerās mood, and if she is unhappy, you have the need to make her happy. And you canāt be happy if sheās not happy. You canāt separate your own mood and happiness from that of your partner.
Also, you donāt want to cause any frustration to your partner, so youād rather cancel your plans than to see them disappointed. Youād rather adjust to your partner than see them displeased with you. However, you donātĀ wantĀ to adjust and stop doing what you love doing, since youāre a freedom-loving guy. So youād rather not haveĀ anyĀ relationship at all than have to sacrifice the things you love for another person.
The truth is that you donāt really have to sacrifice the things you love ā it is only yourĀ beliefĀ that you do. The problem you have (if I am seeing this correctly) is thatĀ you canāt stand your partnerās frustration. Itās too painful for you and you feel guilty. So rather than try to assert yourself or negotiate, you run away from the relationship entirely. Itās easier for you to live without a constant feeling of guilt.
Am I seeing this right?
Yes exactly! Because I think it feels like lot of sacrifice. it does include my partner’s frustration. But not always, There are times when I can be extremely stubborn about things and not give up until they agree. But another thing I felt that when people around me are sad I feel extreme need to help them in whatever way I can. It’s like people who are near me should be happy around me even though it’s not in my control yet I’m still trying to control that. And until I’m able to help them properly I feel anxious and restless. It’s like I feel very responsible even though I’m not.
But you’re right I need to work on this constant feeling of guilt…
SereneWolf
ParticipantOla Tee,
I am having another not so good period health-wise, so I am not too cheerful. But holding on, keeping hope that itās going to get better eventuallyā¦
Oh I see but Iām glad youāre keeping up the hope. I also hope youāll be better
True, I was told that Spanish and Italian are sort of similar. Donāt know about French ā everyone says itās pretty hardā¦.
Haha yeah French is not that much similar or say least similar in romance languages, also tongue twisting a lot. But Spanish, Italian and Portuguese are very similar to each other.
For a guy who watched a lioness give birthā¦ no wonder that cities are boring
Well even in the big cities I prefer outside areas not center areas just for near to wild and some more peaceful and farther from city noise.
Great! So at least intellectually you know youāre free to make your own decisions and no one is forcing you to tie the knot.
Yes I know that so I just have to stop fearing about it
Hahaā¦ I donāt even think itās possible with cats ā they are great individualists and pretty sneakyĀ
Ā But you can be a father figure to that boy from the neighborhood, whom you were teaching how to ride a bike.
Haha I agree with you on cats. And yes I do spend time with him but less since heās spending more time indoors.
I get itā¦ thatās great that youāre in touch with your inner child! When you were a child, did you feel judged by your parents for being spontaneous and a little silly? Did they often tell you to ābehaveā?
Hmm they never had to tell me to ābehaveā because I was very observant. And grandfather used to talk about other kids of my age how much they have āaccomplishedā and well behaved they are. So without much thought I was like okay as a kid this age I have to be well behaved and not do many silly things like other kids doing who arenāt much āaccomplishedā
Can you give me an example? What in your life should be your way and you wouldnāt agree to any kind of compromise?
Thatās not an easy question to answer but Iāll try
Hmm I think my freedom and ability to do whatever I want. Because like in relationship I care too much and even if theyāre little careless about their health or things that affect them or make them worry it makes me worry 3x times more and I canāt focus on my things.
After that I noticed that in relationships I just loose myself in the process because over caring and overthinking about partner. And it affects my mood and even the sleep soā¦
Back to the freedom part like I said If I even notice even a little that what I suggested made them uncomfortable I wouldnāt hesitate to change my plans just to see them not disappointed.
Also ability to go wherever I go. Itās like a parent would be like donāt go to hike there itās dangerous out there and then even after she said no and Iād go I feel guilty.
But I had two different partners who were very accepting yet still I was worried about all these things.
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