Dear Seaturtle:

“My, the night went differently than I could have expected!“- I didn’t read yet what’s to follow. I will guess as to what’s to follow: he appeared to be very understanding, he was calm and undisturbed by anything you said. He appeared to have validated your concerns and he has given you “positive bribery” that gaslighters give their gaslightees.

“he suggested a prompt for our date last night. 1-How will you change to better the relationship, 2-what do you appreciate about the other person, 3-how could the other person change to help you/the relationship.”-

– Remember that I suggested that you give him a list of 10 questions for him to answer on paper? I was going to look up online questions used in couple counseling. But I didn’t look it up. His prompt is TAKEN from a couple counseling exercise. He looked it up online.

“So he picked me up on time, and we went to an Italian restaurant. We sat down and had a glass of wine and some appetizers”- a culinary positive bribery.

“He started, he said he was going to start taking better care of himself, his home cleanliness and eating habits, things that he said went astray when I left!… I appreciated this answer“-emotional bribery.

“He said ‘I really like that you keep us present, even when we are doing nothing it is at least present with you.’ I appreciated that he noticed this, I did not know that he did“- emotional bribery in progress: he says what he knows you would like to hear, even if he doesn’t exactly understand what he is saying.

“I said: ‘When I was young, my dad gaslit be constantly… when you tell me the things I ‘worry’ about don’t matter, it is gaslighting… He went on to gaslight me again about this situation, he said ‘it was a joke‘ and I said ‘no it was not. It was not…” He nodded at this seeming to begin to understand or at least try“- the appearance of understanding.

He said ‘Do you think the victim is always right?‘…I said ‘Not necessarily but that is not what I am talking about. I am telling you that the cash situation was not a joke at all, it was serious, I did not feel anxious for no reason, you were investigating me’… he literally did not understand how I could take his reaction as if he was investigating or judging me at all”- he is lying here, clearly LYING.

“I said… ‘it sounds like it is starting with you literally having a lack of awareness about how you come across“- no, he was aware in the grocery store that he was suspicious of you and investigating you.

“I was absolutely wowed, just had the biggest ‘ah ha’ moment. He LITERALLY did not know how was coming across, all those times I thought he was being passive aggressive and said I was too sensitive… he seriously thought I was, he was not trying to deny my feelings… curious to hear your reply to this”-

– not only do I think that he’s gaslighting you, but I think that he is better at it that I thought.  I am quite impressed by how skilled he is at this, and I am saddened by it.

In your most recent posts, you asked: “Is this Seaturtles journey? to help N?“- he is about helping himself to you via gaslighting.

“Anita, do you think it is true that people can only meet you as deeply as they’ve met themselves?“- yes.

“This would concern me, as I do want a deep relationship. Or could I just be deep within myself and not need that from a partner“- I suppose you can co-exist with a partner like N and you can learn how to get along with him somehow, in some ways.. Get your spiritual needs met elsewhere, in a spiritual community of your choosing.

My closing input: I am closing my study of N this early afternoon. I am done understanding him. I am not confused about him. I am so sorry that he has been and still is gaslighting you. But what can I do..? You are very attached to him, very motivated to try to fix it. But you can’t fix blatant and deeply ingrained dishonesty.

You are welcome to post about N as much and as often as you’d like (here on this thread or in new threads), and maybe other members would like to discuss him with you. I will no longer read about him (what he says, what he does, etc.), and I will not discuss him with you because (1)  I do not want his gaslighting input in my brain/ my life. (2) All that I can say about him, I already did. (3) There are sources online, and a book about gaslighting that may be useful to you. Plus individual therapy that perhaps you can access..?

I would very much like to communicate with you further, Seaturtle, just not about him.

* I just noticed that you posted again and NOT about him, excellent! So, my next post and all posts after will not be about N (relief!)

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

I didn’t get your update yet.  I will reply to your yesterday’s posts first:

“I am recently, ever since you have started to see a more rounded image of N, confused about whether or not he is intentionally being controlling or gaslighting and if we just have different views that lead to this dynamic”-

– (1) Here is from How to Successfully Handle Gaslightgers & Stop Psychological Bullying. (nipreston. com): “In its milder forms, gaslighting creates a subtle but inequitable power dynamic in a relationship, where the gaslightee is subjected to the gaslighter’s unreasonable, rather than fact-based scrutiny, judgment, and/or micro-aggression”.

The gaslighting my mother employed was severe and overt and it included macro-aggression. On the other hand, N’s gaslighting is covert, milder, involving micro-aggression, such as when he accused you in the grocery store of having cash you were.. not supposed to have.

(2) About you being “confused about whether or not (N) is intentionally being controlling or gaslighting“, from the book: “It should be noted that not all gaslighters are intentionally malicious, or conscious of their harmful conduct… They may not be fully cognizant of the harmfulness (and hurtfulness) of their word and actions, and their painful impact on others. Other gaslighters, however, are perfectly aware of their coercive tactics, as they deliberately seek to establish power and imbalance over other people’s lives”.

“Yes I suggested (couples therapy) back when we were living together, on multiple occasions and every time his response is ‘I am not going to talk to someone who doesn’t know me at all for advice.’“- yes, I remember now, you shared this before. His response suggests to me that he doesn’t WANT to be known (by someone who might get it right about who he is) because then he’d lose his power advantage.

“Mostly I have gotten the Teflon impression. I don’t think he is trying to control my mind… I am confused again, I really am not sure if it is manipulation or Teflon, he genuinely does not let it bother him”- could be both: Teflon and SUBTLE manipulation/ gaslighting… He is perhaps gaslighting himself and gaslighting you at the same time.

I wrote to you: “something IS wrong but N says nothing is wrong, something must be wrong with Seaturtle’s perception then.. her brain must not perceive/ process information correctly.”, and your response:  “Yes, this is exactly what happens in my head and it is very confusing“.

I quoted from the article on gaslighting:  “When the deception of the person who is engaging in gaslighting is questioned, they often react by dismissing the accusation as a delusion, an emotional reaction, or an overreaction—thus conditioning the person to internalize those assessments”. Your response: “F did this for sure. As far as N, I am not 100% He has definitely dismissed accusations as delusional, but are they? Are they projections of F onto him? It is very hard for me to label N as gaslighting, and I am not sure why, I feel defensive of him. I feel guilt for doubting him behind his back“.

I wrote to you about N: “his fear of being controlled motivates him to control“, an your response: “Right, but does he know this?”. Let’s say he doesn’t know it: if you tell him (and make it therefore known to him), will he change?

If he resists your input, calling it wrong.. then he is closed to self reflection and positive change.

“So my dad 100% is this way, trying to be tall by cutting of the heads of others, no doubt he is this way“- F might be an overt, severe type of gaslighter while N may be a covert, milder type of gaslighter.

“N doesn’t do this, I don’t think.. He encouraged me to do the play! He encourages me to paint. He wants me to grow?“- you are not sure about the last one, hence the question mark. What if he encourages you to do what doesn’t bother him but discourages you to think about/ talk about/ do .. what bothers him. No gaslighter criticizes EVERYTHING about their gaslightee.

Back to the book (pdf): “Some gaslighters manipulate the gaslightee with frequent negative hostility, combined with occasional positive bribery…  In a gaslighting relationship, the gaslighter has the power to grant acceptance, approval, respect, safety, and security. He or she also has the power (and often threatens to) take them away. With this tactic, the gaslighter retains power, privilege, and entitlement”.

What if N’s encouragements are .. positive bribery?

“He talks a lot about being mentally resilient in order to achieve peace. He values peace, more than anything. We disagree on how to get it though. He thinks you simply don’t let outside factors bother you => Peace“-

– You, Seaturtle, are an outside force to him and when in conflict.. he teflons you: he doesn’t let you- an outside factor- bother him.

“N brings the people around him up, I think? He encourages his friends and works with others very well. He tends to give more than he receives in his friendships, from my perspective, but he sees their value in a way I don’t”-

– There’s the question mark again. What if N working well with others involves manipulating the people around him successfully. Some manipulation is positive, you know.

“I explained more so about how him being late often is controlling as I am just waiting for him. But he claims this is not planned, and I believe him”- if him being routinely late is unplanned.. why doesn’t he plan to be on time?

“I fell in love with someone who cannot help but to gaslight me? What a tragic love story, to be or not to be”- you need not settle for a life of being gaslit because someone can’t help but to gaslight you. It reminds me of the story of the frog and the scorpion crossing a lake. The frog carried the scorpion on its back crossing the lake, figuring that the scorpion will not bite it, because if it will, the scorpion will drown. But the scorpion bit the frog because.. it couldn’t help but to bite and kill the frog.

“I am so sorry this happened to you, although I know you do not need my sympathy I must give it!”- thank you, Seaturtle.

“I wonder why I was drawn to someone like this, I chose to be with N for so long“- because.. N is such an improvement over F, being the covert, milder form of gaslighter…?

“I am still under a belief that it is fixable and he will stop. I am not sure if this is an illusion“- makes me think of the scorpion and frog story: the frog was under the (deadly) belief and illusion that the scorpion will put a stop or a pause on its inclination to bite for the duration of the swim to safety.

“If I confront him about feeling gaslit when he does not take my worries seriously, he may change that behavior if I tell him I will leave the relationship if it does not stop, which is what I want to do tonight.”- so you want to threaten him (the one who will NOT be controlled by outside factors) to leave him so that he changes his behavior.

I noticed some time ago that you submitted your post but I didn’t read any of it. I will submit this and then read and reply to your post of 53 minutes ago.

anita

I am here, Seaturtle, looking forward to your update!

anita

Dear Livia:

You sound like (read like, more accurately) a rational, reasonable person.

“For me it was just the sudden change based on all our conversations“- being blocked with no warning is a sudden and unpleasant change, and reads like it was uncalled for, meaning, you didn’t harass him and as a result, he blocked you.

It could’ve been that it was easier for him to say nothing (to block you) than it was for him to say something  (to explain himself, to admit to what was inconvenient for him to admit to), in which case, blocking you was a weak/ cowardly move on his part.

“Sometime in the future I will confront him face to face. As for now I just need to heal and move on with my life“- reads reasonable.

“I will be travelling again to the state that the guy lives at the end of the month and I will most likely be there more regularly for business. I am not ready to have any run in with him“- may strength and courage be with you in all that you do. Please post again anytime you’d like my input.

anita

Dear Marnie:

I hope that you receive a reply or two on this thread. If you would like, you are welcome to start your own thread here by going to Forums at the tope of the page, scroll down to All Forums, choose a category and go from there.

anita

Dear Rosie:

I read your post and will be able to thoroughly reply to it (and to anything you add to it) Tues morning.

anita

Dear noname:

“How to FEEL love?” (summer, July 27, 2017), “Feeling loved is such an abstract concept to me, that I’m not sure how to go about feeling it” (summer, June 21, 2018)-

– Winter, December 4, 2023: it is 12:51 pm here (adjusted to the time I am submitting this post), no sun in the sky, none is expected for the rest of the day, a day that ends with complete darkness by 5 pm. The wind is strong. I want to take a walk, my usual 3.5 miles walk, and I am afraid of mountain lions who roam this area at dusk..  it already looks like dusk in the early afternoon. It looked like dusk since morning.

What is love? – is the title of a song with the lyrics: “What is love?/ Oh baby, don’t hurt me/ Don’t hurt me no more“-

– isn’t the answer right there: don’t-hurt-me-no-more?

Only you have to figure out who is hurting whom. When you react angrily to a person (your mother) who is hurting you, it is not disrespecting her, it’s about respecting you.

It’s not about getting even, it’s about a hurt child in a hurt adult having been wronged for too long. Isn’t it time to make things right?

I stopped all contact with my mother, something I never imagined doing.. for how could I have no contact with the number ONE in my life, the person without whom I couldn’t imagine being alive?

I imagine that she is dying as I am typing this, being that she is old and probably physically inactive. How much I desired to be close to her, to be LOVED by her, to take care of her, to be taken care by her, a desire never to be fulfilled. A voice in me is saying: maybe now she will love me…  I see myself as a little girl running to her, short black hair, slender little girl body, running to her: here I am! Here I am, mother, LOVE ME!

Never to happen. How do I know? I know because a woman who had no heart for a little girl running to her will have no love for a middle aged woman running.

The little girl running is the little boy running, isn’t it? Running: here I am, mother, LOVE ME!

“How to FEEL love?…Feeling loved is such an abstract concept to me, that I’m not sure how to go about feeling it“-

– Little girl running, little boy running, meeting mid-run, middle-aged girl saying to 30+ year old boy: stop running toward her, there is no love there. Turn your face/ your eyes- elsewhere and touch love: where it is, it’s always concrete. Where love exists, it’s always in the concrete form.

The above are thoughts in a dusky Monday afternoon. No sign of the sun.. and yet, the sun will be back, maybe tomorrow.. the wonders of life!

anita