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Don’t WANT to completely let go the ex.

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  • February 4, 2021 at 10:30 am #374038
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Jenny:

    “I’m sorry but with all due respect, I don’t agree Anita… I am sorry Anita if any of this sounds rude… it is just something I felt and thought I could say it to you. But feel free to say what you feel. If I am missing something, I’d like to see that. I’d await your reply”-

    – No need to apologize for disagreeing with me: disagreeing is part of an honest communication, because no two people agree (or should agree) at all times, and because disagreement can lead to re-evaluating one’s understanding and improving it.

    I want to point to three things that are very relevant to the topic of your anger before I proceed with this long post:

    (1) You have always been respectful and gracious in your communication with me. I appreciate it very much.

    (2) Everyone feels anger, no one with a functioning brain can possibly be anger-free. Anger is a natural, inborn emotion, and it often follows hurt. It is not humanely possible that you did not feel angry with your mother when she shouted at you and insulted you.

    (3) When a person feels angry, the emotion of anger automatically expresses itself in the angry person’s face, body and voice: the facial muscles tighten, the person’s breathing becomes faster, the person stands taller, looking bigger and stronger, and the voice becomes louder.

    People, as well as other animals, when confronted by an aggressor, are motivated to either Fight the aggressor, run away from the aggressor (the Flight response), or if they can’t run away, they play dead, hoping the aggressor will think they are dead and leave them alone (the Freeze response). If the aggressor is bigger and stronger then the person being confronted, the person confronted will not fight because fighting against one who is bigger and stronger is likely to end with defeat, which in nature means injury and death.

    And now, for the rest of this long post. Please take all the time that you need to read and re-read the above and the following, so to have the opportunity to thoughtfully consider what I am putting together here for you.

    You opened your recent, Feb 3 reply stating that you respectfully disagree with me. Here is what you disagree with (the italicized): “I talked back with my mother, but.. I didn’t start ever. I was never the child called out for being rude, arrogant or disrespectful to her parents on her own accord”-

    – I did not suggest to you that you started arguments with your mother, or that you were a rude, arrogant, and a disrespectful child to your mother, or to your father. It is very, very… very unlikely for a small and weaker person- a child, to start aggression against a big and strong parent: it defies nature.

    What I wrote to you at the end of my Feb 2 post was: “I have no doubt that your long-term anger as a child was valid: that any child in your place would have gotten repeatedly angry”- I understood that you were angry at your mother, and that your anger was valid, meaning that she did something wrong  to you, repeatedly, and her wrong actions against you led to you becoming an (excessively) angry child.

    * As I continue, I will re-examine my earlier conclusion that you indeed felt excessively angry as a child and as an adult.

    You continued your Feb 3 post with: “my mom scolded me… she said personal hurtful things… she shouted at me…”- well, these are some of the wrong things she did to you, which caused your valid anger at her.

    Your valid anger at your mother was expressed in these ways: “I would talk back… my voice would be loud and my words rude to match that of mom’s”.

    Because of your recent post, I better understand the context of your mother telling you that no one will take your nature/ anger: your mother was rude to you but when you matched her rudeness, she demanded sole ownership  of rudeness. In her mind, it was okay for her to (1) be rude to you, and (2) to demand that you react respectfully to her rudeness (saying, “who talks back to their mother, look at so and so, they are so respectful”).

    “I  know maybe I shouldn’t have talked back,  maybe I could stay quiet and respect her more. So I wasn’t submissive”- I disagree: no person should respect rudeness. No person should take rudeness quietly and submissively. But a small child has no choice but to stay quiet, so to not provoke the bigger/ stronger aggressor and suffer even more aggression.

    Regarding one of your cousins who “takes her husband’s behaviour”, your mother says today: “why doesn’t she talk  back”- if your cousin’s mother was rude to your cousin when your cousin was a child, and demanded that your cousin submits to her rudeness, then your cousin’s mother trained your cousin to submit to rudeness. So, as to your mother’s question: why doesn’t she talk back?, I answer: because her mother (and/ or father) trained her to not talk back to an aggressor.

    “I know that I couldn’t.. clean the toilet only to hear my husband shout at me.. and stay quiet”- good thing, Jenny. I never recommended that you take abuse quietly.  It is your mother who demanded that you take her abuse quietly, making you feel guilty if you objected to it in any way.

    You wrote regarding your mother in recent times, you being in your later twenties: “she doesn’t shout like that anymore”- good thing. Problem is that how our parents were when we were children, is how we remember them. Your mother is no longer shouting at you, but her mental representative in your brain is still doing the shouting.

    “My friends, Honestly the one thing that helped me have 1% self esteem left while growing up, it were my friends, right through childhood”- meaning, if I am to do the math, that your mother (and your father for not protecting you) robbed you of 99% of your self-esteem.

    “If I am so bad natured, how come I have the oldest friendships and he closest bonds”- replacing bad natured with excessive anger (which is what I did in my Feb 2 post to you, but now doubting the adjective excessive), then you are asking: if I (Jenny) feel excessive anger, how is it that unlike my colleagues at work who “vent out, shout and put down their assistants”, I have long-term, stable, close and respectful work relationships and personal  friendships?

    You answered your own question: “With my closest ones with whom I have an equal relation, who don’t insult me or put me down, I have very good relations. Even with my father, he wronged me but because he wasn’t directly shouting insulting at me, I never spoke in any bad way with him… when someone pokes me.. and don’t pay any heed when I say it hurts me.. I try to do anything to make them see they are hurting me”-

    – meaning that your anger is directed at those who (1) are aggressive toward you: insult you, put you down, shout at you, (2) do not pay any heed when you tell them that they are hurting you, and (3) are not equal to you, that is, in your mind, they are bigger/ stronger than you.

    “My ex.. my mother.. These are the only two people in life I have had arguments with… with neither of them have I been irritable/ name calling which both of them have been to me”, “when repeatedly provoked.. after my speaking up had no effect, I went down to shouting, begging and crying. Yes I have been argumentative… when someone pokes me.. and don’t pay any heed when I say it hurts me.. I try to do anything to make them see they are hurting me”-

    – As a small, weak child facing her big, strong aggressor (your mother), you cried and begged and tried to make her see that she was hurting you, so that she would stop hurting you. With your ex-boyfriend you did the same because you viewed yourself as small and weak, and you viewed him as big and strong.

    “Through the 5 years, I have never ever name-called him, verbally used abusives, or put him down even when he did. Yes, I have been argumentative. Yes I have spoken up when I feel I was being wronged… this was my mother and the man I wanted to marry, I couldn’t just disengage so I did argue.. I was a cry-baby, I was nagging and clingy maybe but I was not angry, I was hurt… I have taken a lot from both my mom and my ex”-

    – With your ex-boyfriend, in your 20s,  you behaved just as you behaved with your mother when you were a young child. “a cry baby.. nagging and clingy”, not aggressive.

    “an angry woman would have broken ties with them”- young children never break ties with their parents.

    “Yes I WAS A HURT CHILD AND A HURT GIRLFRIEND and I am making the distinction because had I been angry, I think I would become irritable, I would be lashing out at being even little slighted”- young children never lash at their parents.

    “Honestly I’d been happier to be the angry one, it’s be better if I could just yell and insult and go  around thinking as if I am the boss of the world.. rather than being left as the crying begging woman who keeps spinning in self-doubt… I was not an angry child/ girlfriend. I was a hurt child/ girlfriend, not an angry one”-

    – I have a new understanding today and indeed you are correct and I was wrong in my Feb 2 post when I focused on your anger and wrote: “you came into your first romantic relationship with a lot of unresolved anger, and therefore, you were indeed a bad girlfriend and you did ill-treat him. You were wrong and abusive”-

    I will correct the above sentence best I can, to fit my new understanding into it: you came into your first romantic relationship unequipped to assert yourself and/ or leave the relationship when the relationship was extremely unsatisfying and troubling. Instead of leaving, you kept clinging to him, crying and begging.

    Question #1: When you mentioned that you argued with your ex-boyfriend, I connected aggression with the verb to argue, but maybe for you, arguing means pleading. Can you give me an example of what you refer to as arguing (with your mother and/ or with your ex-boyfriend)?

    As a young child, confronted by your mother the aggressor, you had no way to escape her, nor did you have the motivation to leave her, so you tried to get her to see that she was hurting you, crying and begging, pleading perhaps.

    Question #2: do you remember crying and begging your mother when you were a young child?

    Question # 3: Almost all of the relationship with your ex-boyfriend was long-distance. How far from each other did the two of you live and how much time did you physically spend with him while long-distance?

    Because (1) this has been your one and only romantic relationship, (2) most of it was long-distance, and (3) you never mentioned an interest in another man, before or after this ex-boyfriend, I wonder if you’ve been motivated to not be in a romantic, short-distance relationship all along.

    And last, if you choose to answer my questions, and otherwise in your future writing to me, please keep your posts focused and shorter in length.

    anita

    February 4, 2021 at 11:21 am #374041
    jenny
    Participant

    Anita,

    In my last post, after very long, I looked at myself objectively and focussed on facts about me rather than all the negative self-talk. Thank you for understanding it. One of the bigger reasons why I am now able to look at myself for more of what I truly am, is because of my interactions here. Thank you so much. I feel so liberated today. I’ll try keeping my posts short.
    The answers to your questions:

    1. My arguing with my mother was exactly as I mentioned in the slouching example. With my ex, the fights were only because he’d be inconsistent and hot and cold.
    Example: We generally had one proper conversation daily (daily as in for a few weeks before he’d become busy) which was shortly before bed-time. generally he’d call because whenever I’d call, he’d be busy so it was settled that when he is free, he will call. Say one night he doesn’t call, I message/call him, he doesn’t answer, neither does get back to me all night. Next morning he’ll message, ‘sorry was busy then slept early, didn’t see the phone’, I’d find it weird but be like okay. But he won’t call me. In the evening, when I’d go online, I’d see he is online but hasn’t called all day, I’d leave it again. At night, I’d message, ‘you could call once, R. Please call when free.’ He’d reply, very busy baby, will call when free. People at home’. The same would go on for days, some days I’d see he is partying with friends and then finally one day I’d call him multiple times, and say
    J: what is this, I’ve been waiting all these days, one minute you could have called.
    R: I told you I’ve been busy.
    J: Yes, I get it, I am not wanting you to chat with me all day but maybe you could call me once in all these days for one minute, we can all take out a minute, I am also busy. When you have time for family friends, don’t I deserve some time?
    R: Yes, okay but you need to understand, okay I have to go, I’ve some work.
    J: No, R, talk to me today, you have to talk to me today, you always push me away when you have more important stuff
    And then he’d either just hang up on my face or shout that I don’t understand anything at which I’d be like stop shouting at me, how can you do this to me, where am I in your life etc etc. This would drag on till one day I’d cry and he’d be like stop crying, okay I am sorry and the cycle would restart with him being super loving for a couple weeks. Eventually I broke so much that the initial conversation was skipped and I direct called him crying.

    2. I would cry Anita, while arguing back but I didn’t beg in front of mom. I did in front of R.
    3. We were in different cities, same country and would meet almost monthy, one weekend. Initially he’d come more but eventually I was the one who travelled to him more. We did spend time together but obviously more was on calls/skype.

    4. We wanted short-distance, in fact I was planning to look for job opportunities in his city, he also at least said that he’s trying to look for one in mine.

    Frankly Anita, I am done with that relationship, mentally and emotionally. The more I talk about it here and in my head, the more I realise how one-sided and toxic it was, it was a fairytale in my head but the reality was so different and ugly. In the last few days, I read the book, ‘why does he do that’? a friend suggested, its a book on abusive treatment and there was so much that resonated Anita, the conflict avoidance, the name-calling, the hot and cold, so much. R in no way was any Prince-charming that I imagined him to be. I don’t know what he was but he definitely was not what I imagined him to be.

    Love
    Jenny

    February 4, 2021 at 11:52 am #374043
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Jenny:

    Not only have you been not argumentative/  not aggressive with your mother and with your ex-boyfriend, you’ve been a saint with the ex . But neither one of these extreme (aggressive— saint) behaviors is healthy within a relationship.

    After your mother shouted at you for slouching, you telling her: “you can’t say that to me, I am trying but don’t say that” is not argumentative or aggressive, it is a simple assertion. You mentioned having said rude words to her (“my words rude to match that of mom’s”)- what rude words did you say to her?

    Regarding the relationship with R, it was a miserable relationship, very, very Far from a Fairytale. Reads like perhaps R was sadistic.. enjoying causing you pain. And you were a saint. Do you think he is a sadistic person?

    anita

    February 4, 2021 at 12:51 pm #374046
    jenny
    Participant

    Anita,

    – Regarding rudeness with mom, this only, talking back. Basically since childhood, I have been told that talking back at parents is bad. Mom literally said ‘you’ve not seen what all parents tell to their children still they listen’. She always said I talk back as if I am as old as her. Regarding rudeness, these things only, ‘you can’t say this to me, I am trying, yes I am not like so and so and I dont even want to be, I remember I once said if you like her more mom, make her only your daughter, just leave how I look and talk alone, I am not some project’. These things basically, though obviously I could have said them in a lower voice and maybe stayed quieter in places. I remember I once told mom in my teens that even a child has respect, you have all rights to call me out on a fault but even though you are my mother, how can you make personal comments about my nature, over which mom had gotten very annoyed at me, so I did talk back more than I should have maybe and crossed lines.

    – I don’t know about sadistic Anita but I do see him as very abusive now after reading and reflecting a lot.
    I read in that book that ‘inability to raise grievances without being called unreasonable’ is a sign of abuse, R would always put me down for any grievance I had, even his mannerisms, he’d sometimes grab my arm and ask me to shut up, walk out of arguments or hang up the phone, he’d be very loving one moment and then next moment very distant, he’d often walk ahead of me, he was also majorly into parties and his boy night-outs which I was cool with but him constantly picking them above me made me think if we marry, I might sit at home while he parties, he’d never show me any affection in public at all, he always was more concerned about being proper in public at my cost (I had a little bit problem with a dress at a formal function and when I asked for his help, he said very rudely that don’t embarrass me and go to the washroom), even now, I mean he called me for an year and now when I finally called him one time, he disconnected and blocked me as if all he wanted was control and an ego-boost. I think he wanted things on his terms and had no respect for me as an individual. I read in that book that abuse is not about feelings, its about mentality and what we see in our culture. He did say that his father was irritable towards all of them and he did have trouble getting along with him though I didn’t probe.

    Jenny

    February 4, 2021 at 1:03 pm #374047
    jenny
    Participant

    The more I talk about him and recall things Anita, the more grossed out I feel now. What was I doing with him! I think I was so swept up in my own dreams/fairytale and so clouded with self-doubt that I believed that I was doing everything wrong and causing him to ignore me and didn’t look at him for what he was. I also couldn’t wrap my head around how can a person be so inconsistent with someone he claims to love and would keep spinning in my head. His post-breakup behaviour was so telling too. I think I definitely dodged a bullet. There is so much I read Anita about selfish partners, abusive partners which literally fit him to a T. It was as if I was reading a write-up on him.

    February 4, 2021 at 1:47 pm #374048
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Jenny:

    “Mom literally said ‘you’ve not seen what all parents tell to their children still they listen”- she said that  other parents treat their children worse than she treats you, yet those children were more submissive to their parents than you are to her- she wanted complete submission.

    I wrote to you earlier that in nature, aggressors attack the small and weak, because the small and weak will not fight  back, and so, the aggressor will not be physically harmed when attacking its victim. Similarly, lots and lots of parents attack their small and weak children (and not the adults in their lives) because the child will not fight back and the parent therefore will not get harmed when attacking her child.

    Parents who want their children to be completely submissive, so to make sure that the children will not fight back when attacked,  and therefore- no danger to the parent when attacking the child.

    You wrote regarding your fair assertive words to your mother (I detected no rude words on your part): “I could have said them in a lower voice”- the voice naturally and instinctively gets louder when attacked/ when angry as a result of being attacked. You can’t help it, it’s automatic.

    You told your mother: “you have all rights to call me out of a fault”- she doesn’t have a right to call you out on a fault shouting and insulting you. Also, parents often call their children out on faults that the parents themselves created. For example, your slouching may have been a natural reaction to your mother repeatedly shouting at you- she created your slouching and then assigned you the responsibility for it, calling you out on it.

    Notice: she did not call herself out on shouting at you, she called you out for naturally reacting to the wrong she has done to you (by the way, same here, slouching as a child and being called out on it).

    “What was I doing with him! I think I was so swept up in my own dreams/ fairytale and so clouded with self-doubt… I also couldn’t wrap my head around how can a person be so inconsistent with someone he claims to love”- similar to your mother claiming to love you while shouting at you and demanding complete submission and calling you out on faults that she created in you.

    When we don’t clearly see the nature of our parents and the nature of our relationships with them, we proceed to not understand relationships with romantic partners either.

    “I think I definitely dodged a bullet. There is so much I read Anita about selfish partners, abusive partners which literally fit him to a T”- I agree, he is very selfish, and you definitely dodged a bullet. There is something very wrong with R, a severe deficit in empathy.

    anita

     

    February 4, 2021 at 2:08 pm #374049
    jenny
    Participant

    Anita,

    I agree. Things are finally falling in place in my head at least Anita though I’ll continue with my therapy for the childhood experience. I don’t know how can I ever thank you enough Anita. You were truly godsend, at least for me. Every single person in my life today says I sound happier and I feel so much more confident in who I am. I am finally out of a relationship which was not good for me. This wouldn’t have been possible without your help, I would still be trapped in self doubt. Thank you so much for being there when I really needed help, we need more people like you in the world. Thanks a lot.

    Love,

    Jenny

    February 4, 2021 at 3:40 pm #374065
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Jenny:

    You are welcome  and thank you for your kind words of appreciation. I appreciate and value you very much. I hope you and your therapist work together well and you are welcome to post again anytime!

    anita

    March 7, 2021 at 10:55 am #375733
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Jenny:

    How are you?

    anita

    March 8, 2021 at 9:08 am #375757
    jenny
    Participant

    Hi Anita,

    Wish you a very Happy Women’s Day!

    I am good Anita. Things are slowly but surely looking up. I feel peaceful now, now that I’ve changed my number, I’m not on a constant roller-coaster due to R’s calls. Some days initially did feel a little difficult, I hadn’t realised that as toxic as they were, I had gotten used to seeing his calls. But I feel much calmer now. I also strangely feel so much more capable. Just last night, I was thinking how much I’d underestimated myself at a point of time by saying I cannot live without this and that or without R and now I feel so good about myself knowing that I not only survived but I’m moving towards better things.

    How have you been?

    Love,

    Jenny

     

    March 8, 2021 at 9:38 am #375762
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Jenny:

    Good to read back from you, I am fine (recently recovered from my first Covid- vaccine shot) and Happy Women’s Day to you too! I feel very good, and am smiling as I type this, to read that you feel peaceful, much more capable and moving towards better things: one of those better things, sometime in the future, will be a way better man in your life!

    anita

    March 8, 2021 at 10:25 am #375768
    jenny
    Participant

    Aww that’s very sweet of you to say that, Anita. Yes, now I know I deserve and will have a much better man. But honestly I’m not wanting any relationship now. For the first time in my 20s, I’m single. It’s like there’s a host of things that I want to do now, things that I hadn’t even thought of earlier because so much of my time was consumed by my relationship. I’d just remained limited to my relationship and my work. Now I want to focus on myself for a while. I love singing, always have but never went beyond singing amid friends. Now I can’t wait for the pandemic to be over so that I can join group classes and develop music as my hobby. I’ve started working out with more focus, eating healthier and feel physically and mentally so much healthier. I’m not closed to coming across someone nice but right now, for the first time,  I feel content by myself. It is so weird Anita how unhealthy relations can limit your life so much. I don’t have regrets because I know the relation taught me a lot but I never knew that relationships can affect one so much.

    I hope you feel good after the vaccine shot. Vaccination has started here as well. I just hope we come out of this pandemic soon.

    – Jenny

    March 8, 2021 at 10:40 am #375770
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Jenny:

    Thank you, I too hope we come out of this pandemic soon.. it’s been such a long time, way too long.

    Your recent post is a testimony to how an ongoing unhealthy relationship limits a person. When you exited your unhealthy relationship, it is as if you exited a prison, free at last to experience life again, experiencing an emotional awakening to life. I hope you extend this awakening for as long as it lasts, expressing your new freedom in your singing!

    anita

    March 29, 2021 at 1:00 am #376780
    jenny
    Participant

    Hi Anita,

    How are you? I just felt like talking tonight.

    Something a little weird is happening Anita, I wonder if you might have an answer to it. Its been around a month or so since I’ve changed my number and hence have had no calls/texts from R. While on the whole, I am feeling much calmer and stable, a part of me feels very weird. It’s like feeling rejected all over again by him, it’s as if he left me all over again and in a weird sort of way, I am missing his calls. I mean I myself changed my number to be away from him and now I am wondering why is he not doing something to reach out. I find myself wondering if he has moved on to another girl or has stopped thinking of me. I know I don’t want to be with him, in my head I also know that I never want to be with him again, I’ve also introspected and I know that even if I see his call flashing on my phone right now, it won’t bring me any real happiness as I never want to go down that road again but I still feel weird. Why? Is it that due to his regular calls the whole year, I’d become used to them and I’m just experiencing some kind of a withdrawal affect?
    When I changed my number, I’d told my friend whose number he has, to not give him my number if he calls asking for it. Two days back when she called and said that thankfully he hasn’t called asking for my number, I felt, I can’t really explain the feeling, it was a mix of ‘finally, thank god’ and ‘so he is moving on?’. Last night I dreamt of him with some other girl and woke up feeling uncomfortable, not particularly sad but just uneasy. I think I’m feeling that the relationship has finally come to a close with him also giving up on calling and maybe it is just a passing feeling due to that. What do you think, Anita?

    On the more positive note, I went on a date a few days back, my first since the breakup. He’s an old acquaintance of mine who I knew liked me since long and when he figured I’m single, he asked me out, and I went. I had a really good time Anita and though I’ve let him know that I want to focus on myself right now and am not wanting a relationship at this moment, we’ve decided to stay in touch as friends. 🙂

    Love,

    Jenny.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by jenny.
    March 29, 2021 at 10:05 am #376790
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Jenny:

    I am fine, thank you. I mentioned to you earlier that I recovered from my first Covid vaccine shot- well, I recently had my second Pfizer shot and the only side-effect I experienced was a really good feeling!

    I am glad you stopped by to discuss your most recent feelings regarding R. You referred to what you’ve been feeling as “very weird”. I don’t perceive your feelings of attachment to him, the desire that he reaches out to you, as weird. This is how I understand it:

    At one point, I suggested referring to this man as R, standing for Rude, an adjective that he earned by his behavior toward you. There was another person who was rude to you, a person who did not have the right to be rude to you any more than R had that right. I am referring to your mother: “my mom.. said personal hurtful things… she shouted at me” (Feb 3).

    As a child, you were naturally very attached to your mother and therefore, very hurt when she was rude to you. You tried to change her mind and heart about you so that she will be nice to you, instead of being rude. Fast forward, R resembles your mother in that he too is rude to you. This triggers your early-life desire to change his mind and heart about you so that he will be nice to you, instead of being rude. This desire is still active in you.

    Notice this: if you meet a guy who is very nice to you and is not similar to your mother in any way, that guy is not likely to trigger this desire, or an attachment to him. Isn’t that something?

    anita

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