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Alessa.
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November 30, 2025 at 10:44 pm #452406
AlessaParticipantHi Anita
One of the things that you have brought up in the past is that you have difficulty with your trauma because your mother at times tried to express care. But behaved horribly cruelly at other times. I would have thought it was important to address this? Clearly I misjudged your willingness to explore these themes. I’m sorry for offending you. ❤️
Personally, I’ve found it helpful to see the situation with my Mother for what it was. It is a relief in a strange way, to acknowledge the “good” as well as the bad. Even though it was misguided and born of selfishness. I understand that you are not ready for that. I apologize for bringing it up. ❤️
My mother would ride bikes with us to tire us out. And ship us off to people at the church to work on their farm. She would surprise us in the middle of the night occasionally, waking us up to go get pizza. Sometimes during summer we would get ice cream cones.
I like to ride bikes. I like pizza. I like ice cream. I enjoyed my time at the farms. She might have had the intention of making us less annoying. Or getting us out of her way. It was still the nicest thing she ever did.
It doesn’t detract from the horrendous abuse that I experienced at her hands. The huge amounts of trauma.
My adopted mother took me in and saved my life. It doesn’t take away from how I was treat by her. Second class, not real family. Owed.
I would appreciate if you could reply to my messages without replying to Tee at the same time. ❤️
December 1, 2025 at 3:10 am #452407
TeeParticipantHi Alessa,
first, let me say that I know you mean well and didn’t mean anything bad. And my intention wasn’t to defend Anita, but to simply give my perspective on the notion of a “good mother”.
You said that in her own mind, she was a good mother because she provided for her children’s material needs (and she didn’t abandon them – unlike her own father did to her).
The problem is that every narcissistic mother is a good mother in her own mind – she believes she is a perfect mother and can do no wrong.
If we evaluate her based on her own standards, she would be a good mother: didn’t abandon her children, put food on the table, sent them to school, bought them clothes, bought them toys, provided for their material needs.
But if we evaluate her based on how she actually parented, she cannot be called a good mother by any means. She in fact was an abusive mother, even though she provided for her children’s material needs.
So I just wanted to say that her subjective evaluation of herself as a good mother doesn’t really mean anything. Because in her twisted mind, she was the best mother. She didn’t think she should change anything about her parenting. And yet she committed pretty severe abuse.
And that’s what makes narcissistic parents so harmful: they believe they’re great parents, they’re telling you they are the best parent in the world and that they care about you so much, all the while they’re abusing you.
And then when you (their child) dare to say anything, or if you don’t behave the way they want you to behave – you’re called evil, ungrateful, selfish, hurting them etc. You’re made into a villain for simply having normal child’s needs. Or simply for the air you breathe, as it was in Anita’s case.
So this “great mother”, the “best mother” is a lie with which they’re elevating themselves, denying their abuse, gaslighting their children and guilt-tripping them for “hurting” their mother. It’s a ploy to destroy the child, basically.
So when you say (not the exact words, but the point you were making): she believed she was a good mother, and she did everything she thought a good mother should do. And she was a hard-working, busy single mother with no time for herself – it does sound like excusing her.
I’m not saying she wasn’t in a difficult predicament, being a single mother with a history of trauma and abuse. And we can empathize with that.
However, what I’m saying is that it doesn’t matter if she believed she was a good mother. What matters is how she actually behaved towards her children. And that was very abusive. She provided for their physical needs, but was destructive for their mental health. And in Anita’s case, even to her physical well-being (tics).
What’s worse is that she refused to admit there’s anything wrong with her. She never admitted her own trauma. She never admitted she was doing something wrong. And that’s I think the most toxic: being convinced in your own goodness and righteousness, and yet being so harmful to those who depend on you.
You said in your latest post to Anita:
One of the things that you have brought up in the past is that you have difficulty with your trauma because your mother at times tried to express care. But behaved horribly cruelly at other times
Yes, narcissistic mothers can do nice things for us: bake our favorite cake, throw us a birthday party, buy us nice clothes and expensive toys. And yet throughout all that the child feels like not good enough, because of the constant criticism and shaming and complaining on their part. So the “gift” is laced with poison, so to speak.
We might end up feeling undeserving of the gift, because of this constant shaming and self-pitying on their part. The result is severely diminished mental health (C-PTSD), while at the same time having all the material things we can wish for. Not a good deal, if you ask me…
Personally, I’ve found it helpful to see the situation with my Mother for what it was. It is a relief in a strange way, to acknowledge the “good” as well as the bad.
In narcissistic abuse, the “good” is intertwined with the bad, they cannot be separated. Even when we’re receiving the good, we’re also receiving the bad. That’s why it’s hard to appreciate the good: because it was contaminated with the bad. It was poisoned, if you will.
My mother would ride bikes with us to tire us out. And ship us off to people at the church to work on their farm. She would surprise us in the middle of the night occasionally, waking us up to go get pizza. Sometimes during summer we would get ice cream cones.
Maybe your mother was different – maybe she didn’t shame you and criticize you so mercilessly? Maybe during those good times, when you would ride bikes together, she was behaving well with you? Perhaps the memories of the good times (riding bikes, working on a farm, possibly surrounded by healthier adults?) are mostly positive, happy memories, without the contamination of your mother’s toxicity?
But also, a part of the problem with abusive parents is the intermittent reinforcement, where we’re occasionally treated well. And so we long for those “good” times, and downplay/excuse the times were we were abused. And that’s how trauma bond is created…
Anyway, my goal with my previous post wasn’t to accuse anyone, or defend anyone, but to refine our understanding of abusive parents. As I’m writing here, I’m also clarifying things for myself, so please see it in that light.
❤️❤️
December 1, 2025 at 7:40 am #452413
AlessaParticipantThanks for understanding my intent. I really appreciate you clarifying. ❤️
Well yes, I generally agree with you. No one could call any of our mothers good mothers.
Forgive me, I didn’t realize that needed to be said. I thought it was obvious. 😅I can see how it can be seen that way. I did try my best to clarify my perspective, but it is a sensitive topic and text isn’t the best medium for communicating these things. It hasn’t landed well. I’m sorry for the misunderstanding. ❤️
What I wrote was meant to be taken as a whole, not in part. If that makes sense? There is no excusing the pain caused by chronic abuse. ❤️
That is the point that I was trying to make as well. 😊
For sure, negativity is very unhealthy in relationships. I read recently to have a healthy relationship. Generally, there should be a ratio of 20:1 positive to negative interactions. In conflict, the ratio should be 5:1. I found it really fascinating and quite surprising that the number is so high.
Yes, it is really difficult to enjoy things when it comes with so much bad. It’s just something that I’ve been working on for a while. Trying to find good memories of childhood. Fragments in between the madness.
I don’t really want to take over Anita’s thread because I’m aware that this is a sensitive subject for her. ❤️
Obviously, I don’t believe that the good outweighs the bad for me personally. Nor do I think it excuses the abuse.
I don’t know if you have any other thoughts you’d like to share? ❤️
December 1, 2025 at 8:04 am #452414
anitaParticipantHi Alessa 🙂
Thank you for your empathy and for trying to be helpful. I appreciate you being assertive (asking me to reply to your messages separately).
I definitely don’t want to argue or escalate tensions. I want to do the opposite- to de-escalate tensions.
I am glad that you had good times as a child riding a bike, eating pizza and ice cream cones 🚴🍕🍦.
I have a pleasant memory myself riding a bike when I was 16.
🤍 Anita
December 1, 2025 at 11:06 am #452423
TeeParticipantDear Anita,
I’m very sorry about the latest events in your life. 😢 Please share as much or as little about it as you feel comfortable…
But if I understood well, you now don’t have a place to stay (Don’t even know what’s next.. Living in a tent.. don’t know.), because you were staying at the premises of the old winery, which has been sold to a new owner?
I assume that you or someone related to you was the previous owner? And I’m very sorry for the financial loss and finding yourself in an unknown territory, needing to figure things out… 😢
I hope you do have a plan at least for the near future, and that you’ll have a place to stay?
As for the discussion with Alessa, I think it’s good that we talk about those things and refine our understanding.
It’s just occurred to me that parents who meet their children’s physical/material needs seem on the outside like good parents, because there are no visible signs of abuse or neglect, the child is well-kempt, and everything seems fine.
And I’m thinking that it is for those kind of parents that people often say (including their adult children later in life): “well, they did the best they could.” Because they had a job and put food on the table, which means they weren’t addicts, alcoholics, they haven’t abandoned their children, there was no domestic violence (at least not the kind where police would need to intervene)… so all in all, they led a seemingly orderly life (seen from the outside), and were hard-working parents.
But no one knows what’s happening behind closed doors, and what kind of emotional (and physical and even sexual) abuse a child is exposed to. It all happens covertly, without people knowing about it. Those parents aren’t good parents, but they’re considered good parents by societal standards, because they don’t visibly abuse or neglect the child. But no one is asking what effect they have on the child’s psyche…
And I think we (society as a whole) need to become aware that providing for the child’s physical needs but destroying their psyche isn’t really good parenting…
Dear Alessa, I’m not saying you claimed that (that Anita’s mother was a good mother), just that to me, it sounded as if you echoed the often used argument that “she did the best she could” (meaning she worked hard and took care of her children’s physical/material needs). Which, in my opinion, is by far not enough – if the emotional/psychological needs are completely disregarded and severely violated.
Dear Anita, I’ll reply to your other posts a bit later, most probably tomorrow. As I said, I’m sorry about this significant loss and change in your life, and hope that you do have plans for the immediate future 🙏
❤️ 🫶 ❤️
December 1, 2025 at 12:02 pm #452424
AlessaParticipantHi Tee
If you have something that you’d like to say could you please write to me individually? ❤️
I’m sorry, it seems like you’re still not really hearing me. It might seem like that from your perspective, but I’ve explained repeatedly that was not what was meant at all. ❤️
Society is broken and wrong. I even disagree with the premise that people who abuse in a more covert way are seen as good parents by society. They are simply not seen as problematic enough to use the resources it would cost to remove their children.
The world is slowly changing in regards to children. What was accepted, is now illegal.
December 1, 2025 at 12:05 pm #452425
AlessaParticipantHi Anita
Thanks. I’m sorry again for everything. I don’t want to argue either. ❤️
You take care, it sounds like you have enough on your plate at the moment. 🫂
❤️❤️❤️
December 1, 2025 at 3:12 pm #452431
anitaParticipantDear Tee:
Thank you so much for your concern and support. I am sitting at the wnery right now and feeling quite sad. I am missing the place already, been here every single day (except for a few) for 4 years. This is wehere I danced to live music outdoors and indoors, where I socialized with so many people from all over the country and the world. Actually, the photo you see- that’s me at the winery (indoors).
I didn’t live on the premises. My concern about a place to stay is about the house (3 miles away from here) having been mortgaged so to buy the winery, and the winery being sold for a significant loss worries me in regard to the debt not being paid off. I don’t feel a.. clear and present danger of being homeless anytime soon.. but I figure (and I hope I’m figuring wrong) that it’s possible. I am not too worried, really. I take it one day at a time.
It started raining here cats and dogs, good thing I got some tme walking between the trees and the area before it started raining.
I will miss this place SO MUCH!
Thank you for listening/ reading, Tee. It makes me feel better to know that as you are reading this (when you do), I am not alone with my thoughts and feelings.
I will reply further later. Just wanted to add before I sign out that I think very highly of you, and I appreciate you very much.
Anita
December 1, 2025 at 3:23 pm #452432
anitaParticipantHi Alessa:
Thank you for your good wishes. I think I misunderstood you input of 2 days ago, and I apologize for that. I mean, I think you were coming from how difficult your life is as a parent. I don’t think you were trying to defend or empathize with my mother.. It’s just that your life as a mother is not easy. I’ll write more later.
Anita
December 1, 2025 at 6:16 pm #452437
anitaParticipantDear Tee:
Sincerely, Tee- living in a tent would be a significant improvement over living/ growing up with my mother. I suffered so much day in and day out, night after night. The distress was heavy and ongoing. Life is so much, much, much better simply for no longer being stuck with her..!!!
“It’s just occurred to me that parents who meet their children’s physical/material needs seem on the outside like good parents, because there are no visible signs of abuse or neglect, the child is well-kempt, and everything seems fine.
“And I’m thinking that it is for those kind of parents that people often say (including their adult children later in life): ‘well, they did the best they could.’ Because they had a job and put food on the table, which means they weren’t addicts, alcoholics, they haven’t abandoned their children, there was no domestic violence (at least not the kind where police would need to intervene).. so all in all, they led a seemingly orderly life (seen from the outside), and were hard-working parents.
“But no one knows what’s happening behind closed doors, and what kind of emotional (and physical and even sexual) abuse a child is exposed to. It all happens covertly, without people knowing about it. Those parents aren’t good parents, but they’re considered good parents by societal standards, because they don’t visibly abuse or neglect the child. But no one is asking what effect they have on the child’s psyche..”-
Yes, Tee, “they don’t visibly abuse or neglect the child.”- she said: “You think I’m stupid? I will not break your bones”
“And I think we (society as a whole) need to become aware that providing for the child’s physical needs but destroying their psyche isn’t really good parenting..”-
Again, sincerely.. it was absolutely T.E.R.R.I.B.L.E living with her. It was a never-ending nightmare. If I was magically offered to go back in time and be a child again- in her custody- I would immediately choose death over reliving it. No second thinking. No question about it. And no exaggeration.. it really, REALLY was a nightmare.
I am so happy right now simply for not being THERE. And again, a tent would be a great improvement.
So, the food, the toys.. the money she spent on me and for which she heavily, heavily guilt-tripped me.. like you said, the gifts were totally NOT a good deal (“the ‘gift’ is laced with poison, so to speak. We might end up feeling undeserving of the gift, because of this constant shaming and self-pitying on their part. The result is severely diminished mental health (C-PTSD), while at the same time having all the material things we can wish for. Not a good deal”).
“The problem is that every narcissistic mother is a good mother in her own mind – she believes she is a perfect mother and can do no wrong… her subjective evaluation of herself as a good mother doesn’t really mean anything”- Exactly, 100%
“And that’s what makes narcissistic parents so harmful: they believe they’re great parents, they’re telling you they are the best parent in the world and that they care about you so much, all the while they’re abusing you.”- again, it’s like you were there.. Actually you were there.. with your own narcissistic mother, your own nightmare 😢
“And then when you (their child) dare to say anything, or if you don’t behave the way they want you to behave – you’re called evil, ungrateful, selfish, hurting them etc. You’re made into a villain for simply having normal child’s needs. Or simply for the air you breathe, as it was in Anita’s case.”- You WERE there.
“So this “great mother”, the “best mother” is a lie with which they’re elevating themselves, denying their abuse, gaslighting their children and guilt-tripping them for “hurting” their mother. It’s a ploy to destroy the child, basically.”- This is Tee Telling it like it is, Tee the Truth Champion, my Hero!!!
“In narcissistic abuse, the ‘good’ is intertwined with the bad, they cannot be separated. Even when we’re receiving the good, we’re also receiving the bad. That’s why it’s hard to appreciate the good: because it was contaminated with the bad. It was poisoned, if you will.”- YES! In my experience everything was bad, the “good” not really good because it was contaminated with guilt-tripping and shaming.
A cake tastes good but shame and guilt taste so very bad.
.. There’s been something I’ve been struggling with for a while, Tee. It’s the red heart emojis. Red was her very favorite color, and if I remember right, she drew red hearts, or maybe I drew those for her so to please her.. because I knew she loved red. I returned those to you because of a people-pleasing tendency.. But I don’t want to do that anymore. No complaints about your red heart emojis.. It’s just that I didn’t tell you before what red means to me.
You ARE the best, Tee. Thank you for you being you! I’ll close with a white heart emoji.
🤍 Anita
December 1, 2025 at 6:42 pm #452438
anitaParticipantHi again, Alessa:
I like you being assertive, I really do!
As far as the topic we’re talking about.. Mothering. I gathered from reading your posts in the last 2+ years.. actually since your pregnancy, how difficult and challenging it’s been for you, without help, or help being severely inadequate. I can only imagine how difficult this has been for you. You are doing your very best under the circumstances.
At first, I thought you were excusing my mother.. but then it occurred to me that you were not really talking about my mother but about Alessa-the-mother. How difficult it’s been for you with no support.. or not enough support.
I remember long, long ago, I imagined myself pregnant and feeling trapped in that imagery.. Like it’s a real person growing there.. not a toy you can return to the store.
Does this resonate..?
🤍 Anita
December 1, 2025 at 8:57 pm #452441
anitaParticipantWhatever comes to mind, listening to the old, old music of my youth:
It’s strange how much younger I feel now than I felt 50 years ago, 40 ago, and so on.
I feel younger, lighter.. (weird when I accidently face a mirror.. What the hell.. What happened to my face? When?>>)
Stuck in half a century+ of relentless shame, guilt, distrust… and then shaken into LIFE and finding myself approaching elderly.. For Crying Out Loud-
I didn’t yet get to do Young..!!
What are those wrinkles about, white hair, thinning skin.. What the.. How did I get to be old BEFORE I got to be young..?
How?
Don’t know. The mirror doesn’t lie.
Actually, I do know- It takes a “mother” who relentlessly SHAMES the little girl born through her, having nowhere else to go. No Way Out or Away.
So, these days, talking to people IRL, not seeing myself in a mirror, I FEEL like a teenager, a young one. And I see other middle-aged and elderly as fellow teenagers.
Filling in the huge gap of an unlived life.
Wanting to hold the hand of a 62-year old (a woman/ girl I know) and drag her to the sandy playground to play.
Really, this IS how I feel.. I feel.
How old am I? Y.O.U.N.G, that’s how young.
Youth can really be put on hold for 50 years, it really happens, it happened here, to me.
If I could go back half a century of a hiccup that kept going for half+ century, I’d drink a lot of water and get rid of that hiccup.
How did I get to be old before I got to be young..???
I am listening right now to a Hebrew song called “Ima” (mother), and it still makes me smile because of the dream involved.. “Ima, the highest one, ‘my queen'”, the song says.
Here, I am playing it again, “Ima… to make you happy… Ima, Ima.. the moon sings to you.. You’re with me.. I’ll build castles for you, my queen..”-
Yes, this definitely resonates.
“You’re with me.. Ima.. I’ll build castles for you, Ima”- Well, I tried.. You know the story, Tee.
More Hebrew music.. Beautiful, Hebrew music.. Shlomo Artzi is his name.. And another, Shashi Keshet is his name… And Yosi Banai.
Bed time approaching.
If I am to summarize all this in a sentence or two, I’d say: a mother can easily be the No 1 force of construction (didn’t experience this aspect, wouldn’t know), or destruction (experienced that..).
Anita
December 1, 2025 at 10:07 pm #452443
AlessaParticipantHi Anita
I’m so sorry for all of the suffering and abuse you experienced growing up. You didn’t deserve a second of it. Not one second!
Thank you for understanding! I wonder what your favourite colour is? I’m glad that you are being assertive too and sharing your feelings about things. 😊
Yes, I have a perspective of the difficulties involved as a parent with trauma.
Well, it is not just the lack of help. The lack of knowledge being a new parent too. And the mental health issues caused by the trauma. Then the practicality of taking care of children.
If I hadn’t had a ton of therapy, had specific postpartum therapy available and been medicated. The outcome would have not been good if I hadn’t had all of this help. Realistically, I would have either killed myself or been forced to give up my son. This is the reality of being a parent with severe trauma.
Even with all of my therapy, without the postpartum therapy. I would have continued to struggle and be in a very difficult place.
Things are easier for me now. I love my son and enjoy being a mother. I’m very thankful for the help I got.
Sorry, I don’t want to make this about me.
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