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Alessa.
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November 23, 2025 at 10:11 am #452166
TeeParticipantDear Anita,
(Copilot): “Revenge is the act of inflicting harm or punishment on someone in response to a perceived wrong, often driven by a desire for retribution or to ‘get even.’”.
It occurred to me that the way she was bathing you (scrubbing your head to the point of pain, as well as inappropriately touching you) might also have been a form of revenge and punishment for perceived (or real) humiliation that she’d experienced as a child.
It could be that she felt humiliated – not necessarily by her father abandoning her, but perhaps by what happened in the orphanage (has she shared anything about that?), or by severe beatings at the hand of her oldest sister. She might have felt not only helpless but also humiliated by that, but you said she’d never expressed anger towards her sister.
However, the intense sense of shame and humiliation (and anger) hasn’t just disappeared. And so she was expressing it to you, with whom she felt safe to express anger and to shame you as much as she pleases. So I’m thinking that this entire ritual of bathing you beyond appropriate age might have been a way to revenge for the humiliation she’d experienced as a child.
It also had sexual connotations, and so I’m wondering whether she was sexually abused (e.g. inappropriately touched) in the orphanage? Has she ever shared anything about that period of her life?
Alternatively, sexual connotations might also have to do with her obsession with sexuality, which we’ve talked about, and sort of punishing you (as a representative of all women) for “stealing” her father away. Of course, this is pure speculation, I’m just throwing some ideas around, in case it resonates…
This is why she stripped me of agency and a sense of self-worth. No agency/ No self-worth= No leaving her.
Possibly. Though she seemed not to have been too upset when you were leaving to the U.S. I actually wanted to ask you about how she reacted to your leaving. You said she was touching your hand softly before your departure, so I assumed she expressed support. But was she okay with you leaving? May I ask how she reacted later, when the marriage was annulled and you returned home for a brief period?
She didn’t strip my sister of agency the ways she did to me (dressing her etc., until an older, inappropriate age) because my sister is 6 years younger than me and by the time she was born, the mother had to work and so, she placed her in a child-care facility with other children and later in a kindergarten where her agency was not stripped. On the other hand, I never attended a kindergarten, I was with the mother all the time for 5+ years.
Oh I see. So your sister got to socialize with other children from an early age (and your mother spent less time with her during the first years of her life). Unlike with you, when she was a stay-at-home mom, and you spent your entire time with her, up to your elementary school. It seems your mother didn’t even try to establish total control over your sister like she did with you.
You said she claimed your sister was more independent, so perhaps that played a role too. But she didn’t even try, or didn’t have the opportunity to instill complete control (including physical/bodily control) over your sister. However, she clearly managed to establish emotional control over her, since your sister believed she was a whore:
An example of her violating my sister’s rights: she called her a “wh***” so many, many times. A guy who knew her (in her early 30s) told me that she told him, as in a trance, “I am a wh***! I am a wh***! I am a wh***” (again and again, as in a cry for help)
And she also did whatever your mother told her to do:
emotionally, she (said later) felt like a puppet on strings, and in some major ways (doing whatever the mother wanted her to do), her lack of agency was very evident.
So, she was emotionally “enslaved” (i.e. strongly enmeshed) with your mother, even though her body was free from your mother’s intrusions. Eventually, you left home to get some distance from your mother’s abuse. But your sister stayed and I imagine continued receiving abuse?
Copilot: “Sadism is the tendency to derive pleasure from the pain, suffering, or humiliation of others.
Sadistic Personality Disorder (SPD): Proposed in the DSM‑III‑R (1987) but later removed from official diagnostic manuals… Removed because it overlapped heavily with other disorders (e.g., Antisocial Personality Disorder) and raised concerns about excusing criminal behavior.
Lack of remorse, guilt, or empathy…. A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others…
Oh, I didn’t know there used to be a special category called Sadistic Personality Disorder in the DSM, which was later replaced by Antisocial Personality Disorder.
Yeah, sadism and APD do overlap, but they aren’t the same. APD is more typical for criminals, people who disregard rules and social norms. It can also be an obnoxious neighbor who is making noise in the middle of the night, disregarding the fact that it disturbs people who live in the same apartment building.
Whereas sadism doesn’t even need to include criminal behavior, and yet can be very hurtful. I’m thinking now that making pranks on people can also be a form of sadism – enjoying seeing when someone gets hurt physically, or embarrassed/humiliated (i.e. hurt emotionally).
And yes, your mother enjoyed when you (and others whom she’d shamed and humiliated) would get hurt emotionally, or even physically (when she would scrub your head to the point of pain, or when she would slap you on the face multiple times “till her hands hurt”).
What is getting clearer for me here, is the violation of my rights point, it never really sunk in that my sister and I had rights. And that she violated those rights repeatedly never expressing guilt or remorse to either one of us (except that one time, a bit, in regard to force feeding me as a baby).
Yes, that’s a very good observation: her disregard for and violation of your rights. By bathing you inappropriately, she was actually violating your rights (e.g. the right to bodily autonomy, or however it is called). And I believe she would have been held accountable for that – had the authorities known about it.
It occurs to me that she glorified, or at least excused criminals (both in real life and on film). Which means that she didn’t have a huge problem with criminal, antisocial behavior. It wasn’t morally objectionable to her, but she didn’t practice it so not to have problems with the law.
She also was aware that being more physically abusive with you (akin to breaking your bones) would have gotten her in trouble with the authorities. So she restrained herself – not because it was the right thing to do, but because she didn’t want to get caught.
Anyway, she definitely violated your rights, and for some of those violations, she would have been prosecuted, I believe. …
Okay, I’ve just refreshed the forums and saw your latest post. My goodness, Anita, that’s pretty serious stuff. It could have been that she would have been charged on more accounts than I thought 😕 😢
I’ll stop here for now and will continue tomorrow. I’m very sorry that all this happened to you. But also glad that, as you say, talking about it now and understanding it is bringing you liberation and healing. ❤️ 🙏
And no, it’s not too much for me. It is tough, it’s painful even to listen to (and I can imagine how painful it is to you), but I’m glad that you can look at some of those dark places and bring light and healing to them. I just hope it’s not too much for you?
❤️ 🙏 🫶 ❤️
November 23, 2025 at 10:22 am #452167
anitaParticipantDear Tee: (SA Trigger Warning for Alessa or anyone who may get triggered)
The above is major, for me. Never would I think that I will find relief in a memory of sexual incest. But relief is in what’s been hidden in darkness coming to light.
… I wrote the right above before I noticed you submitted the latest post for me, so glad it’s not too much for you, as for me: I was quite calm when I posted to you last, now the emotions are catching up to me.
I CAN’T BELIEVE I was BLIND for SO LONG!!!
TOOK THE BLAME, THE SHAME.
Tears in my eyes.. I DIDN’T KNOW! Why didn’t anyone tell me../
All this time, these decades, I carried shame that was not for me to carry..
Forever Thankful to You, Tee- FOREVER.
Anita
November 23, 2025 at 10:41 am #452169
anitaParticipantSA Trigger Warning:
The insidiousness of it, part of me does not believe me.
No, no, it says, Mother is a good, lovely person, misunderstood, no.. no.
She didn’t do anything overt, everything can be explained. She is good, good, good goddess of mine.
No, no, no.
No.
I see it now the way it was.
I’ll write more tomorrow. I’ll be okay, thank you Tee (feeling well enough to fetch a few emojis)
❤️ 🙏 🫶 ❤️ 🙏 Anita
November 24, 2025 at 4:07 am #452185
TeeParticipantDear Anita,
how are you feeling today? ❤️
That was a pretty shattering revelation yesterday, and I can imagine it caused all sorts of emotions in you, including a part of you not believing that it really happened.
I myself am quite taken aback by these new revelations. You’ve asked if it’s too much for me. It’s not too much for me to hear it and empathize with you, however I might not be necessarily able to help you process it in the best way, since I’m not a trauma therapist. So my “skills” may not be enough in this particular case.
I’m just saying this to let you know that I would like to keep supporting you, however I wouldn’t like to cause more harm than good.
I CAN’T BELIEVE I was BLIND for SO LONG!!!
Dear Anita, it’s normal that we as children and beyond suppress things that were very painful, because that’s how we protect our psyche from being overwhelmed. Perhaps now you feel strong enough to take it on, to look at it, process it and start healing from it?
It’s certainly very painful to be faced with that kind of betrayal by your own mother. There are no excuses for her behavior. The only “excuse” (which doesn’t exculpate her in any way) is that she might have been sexually abused herself as a child.
Alessa made a good point about it:
there is a link between people being sexually abused a young age and then going on to perform the same behaviour themselves. Of course, not everyone does. But for some people who cannot accept their abuse seek to normalize it.
So it’s possible that she went through something similar and “acted out” on you. But of course, this doesn’t excuse her and doesn’t diminish the incredible pain that she’s caused you. Regardless of what her reasons might have been, you have been abused and hurt, and you need to go through a healing process. You need to have empathy for yourself, not her.
I’m waiting for your input today, hoping you’re feeling not too overwhelmed and that we can continue our conversation, if you find it’s helping you at this point ❤️
❤️ 🙏 🫶 ❤️
November 24, 2025 at 7:55 am #452187
anitaParticipantSA Trigger Warning
Dear Tee:
At first this morning (before getting to the computer), I thought to myself that I wished to end our conversation and exploration in regard to her and what happened with her. Next, as I turned on the computer and saw your relatively short message and was concerned, thinking that you are withdrawing from our conversation, particularly when I read the 2nd paragraph about you not necessarily being able to help me. But when I read the last paragraph about continuing our conversation, I felt better.
“how are you feeling today? ❤️”- First, I would like to continue our conversation and not end it just because it got.. well, the word that occurred to me just now was that it got “dirty”, or “nasty”.
Second, I feel better than yesterday. I feel a renewed hope of further healing. I feel like going through- emotionally- what I need to go through. I slept better last night.
* As I just wrote “slept” right above, I felt like it could be thought to be referring to something sexual (because it implies lying in bed, I suppose), same as earlier in this message when I wrote “I felt relieved”, then thought “relieved” could be misinterpreted as something sexual, and therefore I changed it to “I felt better”.
“That was a pretty shattering revelation yesterday, and I can imagine it caused all sorts of emotions in you, including a part of you not believing that it really happened.”- yes, and a feeling of being.. dirty. And a feeling of hope.
“I myself am quite taken aback by these new revelations. You’ve asked if it’s too much for me. It’s not too much for me to hear it and empathize with you, however I might not be necessarily able to help you process it in the best way, since I’m not a trauma therapist. So my ‘skills’ may not be enough in this particular case.”-
This is what I wrote to you late last night in a post I did not submit to you: “You’ve been giving your time and attention to countless tiny buddha members in these forums for years! Your time, attention, superior intelligence and unending generosity have paid off when it comes to me, in practical terms. No one bothered to pay attention to my words, my story.. And then came you.”.
I’ve seen four therapists in my life, don’t think either one was a trauma therapist. The first did nothing but listen or appearing to listen, but wouldn’t say a thing, even when I asked him to say something. The fourth was the most helpful and the one I saw for the longest time. And yet, in my ongoing conversation with you I revealed the most and you have helped me more than any therapist did.
You are not just a person appearing from nowhere, you’ve been in these forums for years and I read each and every one of your posts over the years, and following your forgiveness and returning to communicating with me, my pervasive suspicion and distrust of people turned into trusting you, and this trust makes my healing with you possible.
“I’m just saying this to let you know that I would like to keep supporting you, however I wouldn’t like to cause more harm than good.”- You are very responsible for bringing this up, reminding me that you are not a trauma therapist and that you wouldn’t like to cause harm. Thank you for that!
I trust you to not cause harm and I know that no one’s perfect (including the therapists I did see), but.. sincerely, I can’t think of anyone more perfect than you for this kind of discussion and exploration.
“Dear Anita, it’s normal that we as children and beyond suppress things that were very painful, because that’s how we protect our psyche from being overwhelmed. Perhaps now you feel strong enough to take it on, to look at it, process it and start healing from it?”-
Yes, dear Tee, I do feel strong enough to take it on (but I keep having these sexual interpretation of my words after I type them, as in “take it on” meaning something sexual)
“It’s certainly very painful to be faced with that kind of betrayal by your own mother. There are no excuses for her behavior. The only ‘excuse’ (which doesn’t exculpate her in any way) is that she might have been sexually abused herself as a child. Alessa made a good point about it: ‘there is a link between people being sexually abused at a young age and then going on to perform the same behaviour themselves. Of course, not everyone does. But for some people who cannot accept their abuse seek to normalize it.'”- I suspected long ago that she was sexually abused as a child or adolescent.
“So it’s possible that she went through something similar and ‘acted out’ on you. But of course, this doesn’t excuse her and doesn’t diminish the incredible pain that she’s caused you. Regardless of what her reasons might have been, you have been abused and hurt, and you need to go through a healing process. You need to have empathy for yourself, not her.
“I’m waiting for your input today, hoping you’re feeling not too overwhelmed and that we can continue our conversation, if you find it’s helping you at this point ❤️”- Yes, please, let’s continue!
After I submit this post, I plan on responding to your yesterday’s post.
❤️ 🙏 🫶 ❤️ 🙏 Anita
November 24, 2025 at 11:30 am #452195
anitaParticipantDear Tee:
“It occurred to me that the way she was bathing you (scrubbing your head to the point of pain, as well as inappropriately touching you) might also have been a form of revenge and punishment for perceived (or real) humiliation that she’d experienced as a child.”-
It makes sense, yes.
But also, one of her personality disorders was Obsessive Compulsive. She didn’t let me wash myself because she was bothered by the idea that I will not do a thorough, perfect job.. Just as she wouldn’t let me wash dishes or clean anything in the apartment, she didn’t trust me to do a thorough, perfect job.
She scrubbed my body hard just as she scrubbed any item in the apartment.
Later in life her OCPD eased as she said herself: “I was stupid to care so much about perfect cleanliness.. Why was it so important?” (paraphrased).
And yes, I was an item to be cleaned.
I think that she resented doing all that hard work, cleaning everything. I think that she wished she didn’t have to, and cleaning me was a chore she wouldn’t have to do if she was rich and had a maid.
“It could be that she felt humiliated – not necessarily by her father abandoning her, but perhaps by what happened in the orphanage (has she shared anything about that?), or by severe beatings at the hand of her oldest sister. She might have felt not only helpless but also humiliated by that, but you said she’d never expressed anger towards her sister.”-
No doubt she had very humiliating experiences growing up, or.. growing-ashamed my be a more accurate term. I misspoke about her not expressing anger at her oldest sister.. I don’t remember her confronting her oldest sister (I’ll refer to her as M), but I know that for a while she wouldn’t talk to M, as in a no-contact, because she was angry at her, she realized at that time that M really, really did hurt her.
But after some time she went back to talking with her. It’s like part of her was M. M was an overt aggressor, consistently, no meek/ people pleasing performances; the mother switched between being M and performing meek/ people pleasing- unlike M- in between returns to being the overt aggressor that M was.
“However, the intense sense of shame and humiliation (and anger) hasn’t just disappeared. And so she was expressing it to you, with whom she felt safe to express anger and to shame you as much as she pleases. So I’m thinking that this entire ritual of bathing you beyond appropriate age might have been a way to revenge for the humiliation she’d experienced as a child.”-
Yes. I think she sometimes turned into her oldest sister. I think that M was her No 1 Abuser.
“It also had sexual connotations, and so I’m wondering whether she was sexually abused (e.g. inappropriately touched) in the orphanage? Has she ever shared anything about that period of her life?”-
Not that I remember. If she did, it was very little.. Wait, how could I forget.. It was in the orphanage (she insisted calling it “institution”, not orphanage) that she lost all her hair- forevermore- as a result of an untreated scalp fungus infection. A shame she carried with her throughout her life.. cutting her head off photos.
And it occurred to me just now.. for the first time in my whole life, why she scrubbed my scalp so terribly deep and rough.. because I had hair and she didn’t..?
I didn’t know she had no hair until I was 26 or 27. She wore wigs the whole time. I just didn’t know until .. was it my sister who told me (I don’t remember). I was in shock at the time, that for a quarter of a century, I didn’t know.
“Alternatively, sexual connotations might also have to do with her obsession with sexuality, which we’ve talked about, and sort of punishing you (as a representative of all women) for ‘stealing’ her father away. Of course, this is pure speculation, I’m just throwing some ideas around, in case it resonates..”-
I remember that the last thing I wanted to do or be- was a woman. Not that I wanted to be a man.. but I definitely didn’t want to be a woman. A genderless doll is more like what she’d approve of.. Just like the dolls she gave me as gifts.
“Possibly. Though she seemed not to have been too upset when you were leaving to the U.S. I actually wanted to ask you about how she reacted to your leaving. You said she was touching your hand softly before your departure, so I assumed she expressed support. But was she okay with you leaving? May I ask how she reacted later, when the marriage was annulled and you returned home for a brief period?”-
Good point, Tee. She wasn’t upset at all about me leaving, and again, it never occurred to me that indeed she wasn’t upset. Sincerely, truthfully.. I was never a person to her, never of a human value, one she’d miss.. I was just a thing, a doll that messed up and turned into the unacceptable.. woman form (not by choice.. it just happened to the body I was ashamed of). But in her mind, seems to me, turning woman meant betrayal.
When I returned in 1986 from New Orleans.. I don’t think there was any discussion of what happened with the short-term husband of sorts. Why would there be..? For her to be curious about a Thing’s inner life or personal experiences? It’d be like looking at a plastic doll, an object made to resemble the appearance of a human, and wondering about the doll’s (non-existing) thoughts, feelings and life experiences).
“Oh I see. So, your sister got to socialize with other children from an early age (and your mother spent less time with her during the first years of her life). Unlike with you, when she was a stay-at-home mom, and you spent your entire time with her, up to your elementary school. It seems your mother didn’t even try to establish total control over your sister like she did with you.”- not physically, as in washing, feeding, wiping and dressing her. (Not necessarily in that order.. sad lol).
“You said she claimed your sister was more independent, so perhaps that played a role too. But she didn’t even try, or didn’t have the opportunity to instill complete control (including physical/bodily control) over your sister. However, she clearly managed to establish emotional control over her, since your sister believed she was a whore… And she also did whatever your mother told her to do… So, she was emotionally ‘enslaved’ (i.e. strongly enmeshed) with your mother, even though her body was free from your mother’s intrusions. Eventually, you left home to get some distance from your mother’s abuse. But your sister stayed and I imagine continued receiving abuse?”-
For the longest time I felt so guilty for leaving because when I did, she turned all her attention to my sister and literally told her to give her a child “Give me a grandchild” is what she told her. She said: “You are a great disappointment, the least you can do (to compensate me) is to give me a grandchild”. Nine months later, my sister gave her what she demanded.
Oh, did I mention the mother told her to marry a particular young man, a bad fit (just because he was blond and had blue or green eyes from a country in north Europe).. so, she did.
(The plot thickens, doesn’t it, Tee?)
“Oh, I didn’t know there used to be a special category called Sadistic Personality Disorder in the DSM, which was later replaced by Antisocial Personality Disorder.
“Yeah, sadism and APD do overlap, but they aren’t the same. APD is more typical for criminals, people who disregard rules and social norms. It can also be an obnoxious neighbor who is making noise in the middle of the night, disregarding the fact that it disturbs people who live in the same apartment building.”-
I had a neighbor like that when I last lived in an apartment building, back in early 2014. She used to use her vacuum cleaner at 3 am. When I told her it was disturbing my sleep, she told me that I was disturbing her sleep turning my vacuum clear or what not (during the day). I used to think of her as “the neighbor from hell)”
“Whereas sadism doesn’t even need to include criminal behavior, and yet can be very hurtful. I’m thinking now that making pranks on people can also be a form of sadism – enjoying seeing when someone gets hurt physically, or embarrassed/humiliated (i.e. hurt emotionally).”- Yes, I agree.
“And yes, your mother enjoyed when you (and others whom she’d shamed and humiliated) would get hurt emotionally, or even physically (when she would scrub your head to the point of pain, or when she would slap you on the face multiple times ’till her hands hurt’).”-
Yes, she enjoyed it. I just “heard” her say, accusatorily, angrily: “Well, there wasn’t anything else for me to enjoy, how dare you take away my only little thing to enjoy?) You bad, bad.. you!!!”
“Yes, that’s a very good observation: her disregard for and violation of your rights. By bathing you inappropriately, she was actually violating your rights (e.g. the right to bodily autonomy, or however it is called). And I believe she would have been held accountable for that – had the authorities known about it.”-
The authorities that didn’t protect her from her oldest sister.. the authorities that didn’t treat her scalp condition in the Institution.
“It occurs to me that she glorified, or at least excused criminals (both in real life and on film). Which means that she didn’t have a huge problem with criminal, antisocial behavior. It wasn’t morally objectionable to her, but she didn’t practice it so not to have problems with the law.”-
Well, in a different society, she would have been arrested for assault (and attempted battery) of the music teacher.. Disturbing the peace, etc… child Abuse (for the endless verbal and physical assault that the neighbors could hear).
But I have no memory at all of any authorities. I understand that things are somewhat improved back there.
“She also was aware that being more physically abusive with you (akin to breaking your bones) would have gotten her in trouble with the authorities. So she restrained herself – not because it was the right thing to do, but because she didn’t want to get caught.’-
Yes, although I’m surprised anyone back then got in trouble for breaking a child’s bones..?
Thing is, yes, she had no ethical sense within her, that is.. When she told me: “You think I am stupid, I wouldn’t break your bones!”, what had upset her was not at all that breaking my bones would be the wrong thing to do, but that I would think of her as “stupid”.
She said: “You think that I don’t know that I am wrong (about the way she treated me), I do know, but what can you do about it, you have nowhere to go)-
it’s not that she was acknowledging being wrong.. she’d never say she was wrong about anything (my sister would confirm it 100%, and she did), what was behind what she said was: “I am not stupid (one of her concerns)”. There was no looking-within, it was just.. I AM NOT STUPID and how dare you think I am!
“Anyway, she definitely violated your rights, and for some of those violations, she would have been prosecuted, I believe..”- I would retroactively resurrect a non-existing authority. I still wonder if any parent was held responsible for anything back then.
“Okay, I’ve just refreshed the forums and saw your latest post. My goodness, Anita, that’s pretty serious stuff. It could have been that she would have been charged on more accounts than I thought 😕 😢… I’m very sorry that all this happened to you. But also glad that, as you say, talking about it now and understanding it is bringing you liberation and healing. ❤️ 🙏
“And no, it’s not too much for me. It is tough, it’s painful even to listen to (and I can imagine how painful it is to you), but I’m glad that you can look at some of those dark places and bring light and healing to them. I just hope it’s not too much for you?”-
– No, it’s not too much for me. Holding all this in, unprocessed, or inadequately processed, suppressing memories and emotions had been too much for me.
But because of you (and I can’t reiterate it enough), I am healing, my healing process is accelerated.
I like your use of 😕, the puzzled face emoji that as far as I remember, I introduced it to you 🙂.
Forever grateful, Tee. you are my hero!
❤️ 🙏 🙏 🙏 ❤️, Anita
November 24, 2025 at 8:22 pm #452202
anitaParticipantSA Trigger Warning, just in case there’ll be details, Alessa
Dear Tee:
I am getting close to no longer discussing her. I have been gathering, thanks to your input, Tee, a 3-D understanding of her, the most powerful person in my life, the mother I was born to, or through.
I am getting ready to move on to something new, something exciting; a new, fresh breath of air, turning my eyes, my attention elsewhere. And not looking back, no longer held hostage by the past I’ve known.
There’s no one I loved more, no one I kept waiting for as much or as long as I’ve been waiting, waiting, waiting for her to be what I needed.
It makes me smile right now, the sweet feeling about what I’ve been forever waiting for (words are inadequate to describe what it is that I’ve been waiting for).
I’ve been waiting- six decades of waiting- to feel okay inside me. Like the title of the movie, “Waiting to Exhale.”
Waiting to feel calm inside.
I waited for her to.. love me like a mother is supposed to love her daughter. I say “supposed”- not something I read, something I instinctually needed: a place to rest.
A place to rest in a mother.
Peace, safety, calm enough to exhale.
I didn’t get the opportunity to rest in a mother.
I didn’t get the opportunity to feel safe with a mother.
All the love I had for her.. That was me needing her to love me.
If I could mother her, I would have, so that she could love me.
She was Everything to me, but to her, I was (her words), “A Nothing”, “A Nobody”, “A big Zero”.
If I confronted her about these words, she’d deny, reinterpret and blame me for daring to repeat her words.
Don’t matter, never a win for me.
Don’t care anymore about what she said, what she might say-
Why should I care..?
The 3-D understanding of her: a good little girl trapped in the evil she experienced AND perpetuated.
Not a unique story but.. business as usual in too much of our troubled world.
She felt so powerless, so much of “A Nothing”, “A Nobody”, “A Big Zero”, that the relief she got was when saying these things to me.
The story of Abuse, an ongoing story.. Just pass on the abuse, and you’d feel better, for a little while, business as usual.
Nothing wrong in saying or doing anything to “A Nobody”, to “A Nothing”, to “A big Zero”, is there??? If it’s a Nobody then..
Isn’t this what dehumanizing is all about? The Nazis dehumanizing the Jews, the European Jews (Ashkenazi’s) dehumanizing North African/ middle easter Jews (Mizrachi’s), my mother dehumanizing me..?
As to the sexual abuse.. why, that’s a Nothing when done to a Nothing/ a Nobody.
A child being a sexual object for a parent: a father (more publicity about that happening, more overtly), or a mother (less publicity, more covert, perhaps)- Think of an adult parent lonely, deprived, desiring something sexual.. and there’s no one there but the child.. the only thing there.. What do you do with the desire?
Please don’t get me wrong: I know how WRONG it is to sexually abuse a child. Majorly Wrong.
But to the sexually abusing “parent”.. It’s no big deal.
.. Her choosing me to experience being a Somebody in comparison, to feel a thrill of control, a covert sexual thrill (or overt?) Again, that’s nothing personal, not an indication of who I am, of my worth. Nothing to do with me as a person.. Just me happening to be there, not by choice.
How to save the many thousands of children right now, this very Mon night, being the subjects of abuse, verbal, physical, sexual? WHAT CAN I DO???
.. Anita
November 24, 2025 at 10:48 pm #452203
AlessaParticipantHi Anita
I understand the loneliness and desperation of not having a loving and caring parent that you deserve. ❤️
I feel like the person you have been waiting for all along is yourself. You have all of the qualities you wish for in a mother. You can give that love to yourself. That is the secret of how to feel whole and recover from the abuse of a failed parent. ❤️
I hope you don’t mind me sharing? It was part of my trauma therapy to indulge my inner child. Whatever she wanted to do, I was supposed to do. It was mostly focused on fun initially.
Nowadays, I tend to check in with little Alessa and say, is there anything you need? Anything I can do for you? Sometimes little Alessa will ask for things before I even ask. It might just be communicating hunger, thirst. Picking what to have. These things seem to be important because I was starved growing up. I also talk to her and tell her that I love her, that she’s a good girl. Perhaps you could find your own way of indulging and taking care of little or adult Anita. If it interests you? ❤️
I was taught by my therapist and I’m sure that you can find this information online too. That sexual abuse is not about sex. It is a form of violence and it is about control and re-enacting abuse from a more powerful position, that of an abuser.
To explain, she might have hit you as she was hit.
I think of sexual abuse as the ultimate way to strip someone of their autonomy. As you said, it was not your choice.
You are very right in that none of this was your fault. ❤️ But your mother was wrong, she could not see you for the special person you are. You were never a nobody. You were a sweet little person who grew up into a loving, caring and trusting adult, despite the atrocities you experienced at her hands. She could never erase your nature. ❤️
November 25, 2025 at 3:17 am #452207
TeeParticipantDear Anita,
I am getting close to no longer discussing her. I have been gathering, thanks to your input, Tee, a 3-D understanding of her, the most powerful person in my life, the mother I was born to, or through.
You (and we) don’t need to stop discussing her. Discussing her helped you to understand what happened to you, and why she couldn’t really give you love – love that you have been longing for such a long time. A love that you as a child (and beyond) absolutely needed and deserved. You said it so beautifully:
I waited for her to.. love me like a mother is supposed to love her daughter. I say “supposed”- not something I read, something I instinctually needed: a place to rest. A place to rest in a mother.
Each child has that need, that’s how our brains (and our hearts) are wired. But too many parents aren’t able to provide that safety (both physical and emotional) to their children. Too many parents are wounded children themselves, who end up hurting their children, perpetuating generational trauma. As you said:
Just pass on the abuse, and you’d feel better, for a little while, business as usual.
Yes, pass on the abuse, briefly feel relief from the pain… even if it’s by hurting those who love you and depend on you the most.
Heart-breaking 😢
Unfortunately, parents who commit those acts may rationalize it and may not think it’s a big deal, as you’ve said here:
Nothing wrong in saying or doing anything to “A Nobody”, to “A Nothing”, to “A big Zero”, is there??? If it’s a Nobody then..
As to the sexual abuse.. why, that’s a Nothing when done to a Nothing/ a Nobody.
A child being a sexual object for a parent: a father (more publicity about that happening, more overtly), or a mother (less publicity, more covert, perhaps)- Think of an adult parent lonely, deprived, desiring something sexual.. and there’s no one there but the child.. the only thing there.. What do you do with the desire?
Please don’t get me wrong: I know how WRONG it is to sexually abuse a child. Majorly Wrong.
But to the sexually abusing “parent”.. It’s no big deal.
But I don’t care if it’s not a big deal for them: it is a big deal, a HUGE deal, for their victims. For their innocent children who seek a safe place, and get a dungeon with dragons.
I’m not sure if I’m hearing some bitterness in your words, a part of you almost wanting to minimize your pain because for your mother, abusing you wasn’t a big deal?
If so, please know that abusing you WAS a big deal, and not only from your perspective as a victim, but also from every normal person’s perspective. Childhood abuse, especially childhood sexual abuse, is a big deal for every sane person with a grain of empathy. It’s not something that people just shrug their shoulders to, as in “it happens”. No. Because even if it happens, it’s horribly destructive and it should never happen.
How to save the many thousands of children right now, this very Mon night, being the subjects of abuse, verbal, physical, sexual? WHAT CAN I DO???
I’ve looked up childhood sexual abuse and came across some old videos of The Oprah Show, where she hosted survivors of childhood sexual abuse, including incest. And then I dag deeper, and realized that Oprah herself was abused as a child, both physically and sexually, which was one of the reasons why she started the Oprah Show: to talk about difficult human destinies and how to recover. And it seems that she contributed to passing a bill in 1993, colloquially called the Oprah bill:
“Oprah bill” refers to the National Child Protection Act of 1993, which was informally named after Oprah Winfrey due to her instrumental role in advocating for its passage. The bill created a national database of convicted child abusers and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton in 1993.
I don’t know much about this field, but it seems there is already a lot of help out there, there are numerous websites and initiatives to prevent child abuse. And I guess there are educational programs at schools (though I guess not implemented everywhere) about what constitutes appropriate touch, etc. So I guess awareness about it is greater than before.
But I guess it’s still happening a lot, and it’s very insidious because it’s happening behind closed doors. And children (the victims) often don’t even have the awareness that what’s happening is wrong. And neighbors are still very unwilling to get involved.
In one of Oprah’s videos, a victim (a man who was abused as a child, but has since recovered) said that even though the neighbors (and teachers!) saw that he was dirty and smelly, nobody said anything. People knew that his mother was “crazy”, but no one wanted to get involved.
This didn’t happen now, it’s an old story, but still, it shows how difficult these things are, and how “institutions” can really mess up, because even his teachers didn’t notice, or chose not to notice, that he was neglected (and there were obvious, visible signs of neglect).
Anyway, that’s a complex topic, but I think what’s important for you personally is that you’re now talking about it and understanding what happened to you, and that your mother wasn’t able to give you love.
You’ve also realized that none of that was your fault – that the abuse wasn’t your fault – and you found compassion for that little girl who only wanted to be loved and instead received the antithesis of it.
I think that’s truly the key in your healing. Understanding her reasons and what was in her mind is less important, although it can be important in the sense of understanding that she too was wounded. Yet, as you say, she chose to perpetuate the abuse, unlike her brother, who sought to stop it:
The 3-D understanding of her: a good little girl trapped in the evil she experienced AND perpetuated.
She went through a lot, and I can see that even her permanent hair loss as a child or adolescent may have contributed to her self-loathing and cutting her head off in photos. Perhaps she was bullied and humiliated due to her hair loss, which was an additional trauma.
All of that (baldness, beatings, bullying, her father abandoning her to be with other women, which led to her becoming an orphan, etc)… might have led to an intense anger, hatred and a sense of powerlessness. And then the need to regain that power by subduing and controlling her own children. And getting a sense of self-worth by mercilessly shaming and humiliating her children.
Plus there was sexual abuse, which we can speculate about the reasons why it happened (because it doesn’t necessarily have to be that she was molested herself). Nevertheless it happened, and perhaps that was the most insidious kind of abuse, because it wasn’t so overt, and yet it was boundary violation and trust violation. And it caused you to feel huge shame about yourself.
All this is coming to light now, you’re realizing it, and I hope it is liberating (inasmuch it is painful too), and will gradually lead to healing. 🙏 ❤️
So I think we can keep talking about it, if it’s helpful to you. I think it’s less important to understand what was in her mind and what her motives were (although we can speculate about it). What’s most important is that you’ve realized that it was abuse and that you started healing from it. And I hope you will continue to heal. And I’m glad I can help you in that process ❤️
Also, as Alessa said:
I feel like the person you have been waiting for all along is yourself. You have all of the qualities you wish for in a mother. You can give that love to yourself. That is the secret of how to feel whole and recover from the abuse of a failed parent.
Yes! You’re the one you’ve been waiting for! I’ve heard that phrase before, and I’ve looked it up now: it’s the title of a book by Richard Schwartz (the creator of the Internal Family Systems therapy, which I respect a lot). But anyway, that’s the big wisdom and the big truth of healing ❤️
🙏 ❤️ 🫶 ❤️ 🙏
November 25, 2025 at 10:49 am #452214
anitaParticipantDear Alessa and Tee:
Thank you for your thoughtful messages. I am taking a mental 😊 health day for now, but will thoroughly respond in the evening.
* The first thought I had today before I turned the computer on was.. I don’t remember the wording, but it was a feeling of self worth, of okaying myself. It was/ is a precious emotional experience, one of a kind, and that’s why I am taking a break.. so to enjoy this feeling, to let it settle.
🤍 ❤️ 🙏 ❤️ 🙏 🤍 Anita
November 25, 2025 at 11:01 am #452216
TeeParticipantDear Anita,
that is so good to hear! A feeling of self-worth emerging, a feeling that “I’m okay”. That is indeed a precious emotional experience and the one to cherish and enjoy! ❤️
Wishing you a happy mental health day! 😊
❤️ 🫶 ❤️
November 25, 2025 at 11:24 am #452217
anitaParticipantThank you, Tee. YOU made it happen. I said it before, I am eternally grateful and you are my hero!
❤️ 🫶 ❤️ (Back in the evening)
November 25, 2025 at 4:40 pm #452226
anitaParticipantHi Alessa:
You wrote that you feel like the person I have been waiting for all along is myself- yes, myself without the chronic shame, guilt, self doubt and a rejection of my own self.
You wrote that I have all of the qualities I wish for in a mother- thank you, Alessa.
And thank you for sharing part of your trauma therapy in regard to indulging your inner child, little Alessa, whatever she wanted to do, and currently asking her: “is there anything you need? Anything I can do for you?”
It’s progress, isn’t it, that sometimes little Alessa will ask for things before Alessa the adult even asks.
Yes, you shared before that you were starved/ deprived of food growing up. I am sorry for that abuse and all the other abuses you suffered.
I supposed I was starved in utero (her bulimia during pregnancy, I suspect) but often overly fed after birth which led to EDs in adolescence and adulthood. Thankfully, I no longer binge eat.
Yes, little Alessa is a good girl.
In regard to taking care of little Anita, thank you for the suggestion: I will find my own ways of indulging and taking care of.. me, and I’ll tell you about it in the future. ❤️
You wrote that sexual abuse is not about sex. It is a form of violence and it is about control and re-enacting abuse from a more powerful position, that of an abuser, and that sexual abuse is the ultimate way to strip someone of their autonomy- yes, the intensity of S.H.A.M.E involved is overwhelming, it’s a powerful way of destroying so much of a person- for a long, long time.. But not forever 😊
You wrote, “You were never a nobody. You were a sweet little person who grew up into a loving, caring and trusting adult, despite the atrocities you experienced at her hands. She could never erase your nature. ❤️”- beautifully said, Alessa.
I was never a nobody. I was a sweet little person, and now, I AM a loving, caring adult who trusts more than I ever trusted (after the many betrayals I experienced early on). I have a.. reborn, newborn trust in good people.
Thank you, Alessa.. This was an intelligent, beautiful, loving message. Much appreciated!
🙏 ❤️ Anita
November 25, 2025 at 5:50 pm #452227
anitaParticipantDear Tee:
“You (and we) don’t need to stop discussing her.”- I am glad you’re saying this, Tee, because I am not done discussing her. (Part of me earlier was accommodating the inner critic who accused me of over-discussing, and not “getting over it”!)
“Discussing her helped you to understand what happened to you, and why she couldn’t really give you love – love that you have been longing for such a long time. A love that you as a child (and beyond) absolutely needed and deserved. You said it so beautifully:
“‘I waited for her to.. love me like a mother is supposed to love her daughter. I say ‘supposed’- not something I read, something I instinctually needed: a place to rest. A place to rest in a mother.’
“Each child has that need, that’s how our brains (and our hearts) are wired. But too many parents aren’t able to provide that safety (both physical and emotional) to their children. Too many parents are wounded children themselves, who end up hurting their children, perpetuating generational trauma.”-
Each child, yes.. I was just a child, a child like any child, not a shameful freak of nature like I believed I was.
“Heart-breaking 😢 Unfortunately, parents who commit those acts may rationalize it and may not think it’s a big deal, as you’ve said here… But I don’t care if it’s not a big deal for them: it is a big deal, a HUGE deal, for their victims. For their innocent children who seek a safe place, and get a dungeon with dragons.”-
I just felt so much affection for you, Tee.. for saying these things with passion (I meant emotional passion, of course.. everything feels contaminated as a result of sexual abuse.. the word “passion”, the word “affection”)
Like her affection when holding my hand on the way to the airport.. if it was affection, I couldn’t differentiate it from sexuality. Every smile on her face directed to me, a softness in her voice.. it all felt creepy.
“I’m not sure if I’m hearing some bitterness in your words, a part of you almost wanting to minimize your pain because for your mother, abusing you wasn’t a big deal?”- there’s an element of that still going on: denial, minimization.
“If so, please know that abusing you WAS a big deal, and not only from your perspective as a victim, but also from every normal person’s perspective. Childhood abuse, especially childhood sexual abuse, is a big deal for every sane person with a grain of empathy. It’s not something that people just shrug their shoulders to, as in ‘it happens’. No. Because even if it happens, it’s horribly destructive and it should never happen.”-
THANK YOU, TEE!
Not “a grain of empathy” summarizes the “mothering” I received.
“I’ve looked up childhood sexual abuse and came across some old videos of The Oprah Show, where she hosted survivors of childhood sexual abuse, including incest. And then I dug deeper, and realized that Oprah herself was abused as a child, both physically and sexually, which was one of the reasons why she started the Oprah Show: to talk about difficult human destinies and how to recover. And it seems that she contributed to passing a bill in 1993, colloquially called the Oprah bill:
“’Oprah bill” refers to the National Child Protection Act of 1993, which was informally named after Oprah Winfrey due to her instrumental role in advocating for its passage. The bill created a national database of convicted child abusers and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton in 1993.
“I don’t know much about this field, but it seems there is already a lot of help out there, there are numerous websites and initiatives to prevent child abuse. And I guess there are educational programs at schools (though I guess not implemented everywhere) about what constitutes appropriate touch, etc. So I guess awareness about it is greater than before.”-
I want to join those sources of help.. those websites and initiatives!
“But I guess it’s still happening a lot, and it’s very insidious because it’s happening behind closed doors. And children (the victims) often don’t even have the awareness that what’s happening is wrong. And neighbors are still very unwilling to get involved.”- that’s infuriating to me right now, that they wouldn’t get involved!
A few years ago I came across a neighbor whose dog was visibly abused (caged in, running in circles, distressed, day in and day out). I walked into the neighbor’s private property and protested the dog’s abuse, loud and clear. Didn’t go well, but I didn’t want to be complicit, like the neighbors growing up-in.
Shortly after, the dog wasn’t there anymore, maybe removed to a better place.
“In one of Oprah’s videos, a victim (a man who was abused as a child, but has since recovered) said that even though the neighbors (and teachers!) saw that he was dirty and smelly, nobody said anything. People knew that his mother was ‘crazy’, but no one wanted to get involved.”- I relate 😢
“This didn’t happen now, it’s an old story, but still, it shows how difficult these things are, and how ‘institutions’ can really mess up, because even his teachers didn’t notice, or chose not to notice, that he was neglected (and there were obvious, visible signs of neglect).
“Anyway, that’s a complex topic, but I think what’s important for you personally is that you’re now talking about it and understanding what happened to you, and that your mother wasn’t able to give you love.
“You’ve also realized that none of that was your fault – that the abuse wasn’t your fault – and you found compassion for that little girl who only wanted to be loved and instead received the antithesis of it.”-
The “antithesis of love”- what a strong and accurate way to phrase it.
“I think that’s truly the key in your healing. Understanding her reasons and what was in her mind is less important, although it can be important in the sense of understanding that she too was wounded. Yet, as you say, she chose to perpetuate the abuse, unlike her brother, who sought to stop it… She went through a lot, and I can see that even her permanent hair loss as a child or adolescent may have contributed to her self-loathing and cutting her head off in photos. Perhaps she was bullied and humiliated due to her hair loss, which was an additional trauma.”- no doubt she was.
If only I could go back in time and rescue the girl that she was.. I would.
“All of that (baldness, beatings, bullying, her father abandoning her to be with other women, which led to her becoming an orphan, etc.)… might have led to an intense anger, hatred and a sense of powerlessness. And then the need to regain that power by subduing and controlling her own children. And getting a sense of self-worth by mercilessly shaming and humiliating her children.”-
M.E.R.C.I.L.E.S.S.L.Y.
“Plus there was sexual abuse, which we can speculate about the reasons why it happened (because it doesn’t necessarily have to be that she was molested herself). Nevertheless it happened, and perhaps that was the most insidious kind of abuse, because it wasn’t so overt, and yet it was boundary violation and trust violation. And it caused you to feel huge shame about yourself.”-
Very, very icky. It’s a shame of the kind that sticks.. like glue.
“All this is coming to light now, you’re realizing it, and I hope it is liberating (inasmuch it is painful too), and will gradually lead to healing. 🙏 ❤️”-
Yes, Tee.. healing, big time healing, wouldn’t be possible without your input and dedication to the cause, the cause being healing 🙏 ❤️
“So I think we can keep talking about it, if it’s helpful to you. I think it’s less important to understand what was in her mind and what her motives were (although we can speculate about it). What’s most important is that you’ve realized that it was abuse and that you started healing from it. And I hope you will continue to heal. And I’m glad I can help you in that process ❤️”-
Sincerely, Tee, I couldn’t do it without you. ❤️
“Also, as Alessa said… Yes! You’re the one you’ve been waiting for! I’ve heard that phrase before, and I’ve looked it up now: it’s the title of a book by Richard Schwartz (the creator of the Internal Family Systems therapy, which I respect a lot). But anyway, that’s the big wisdom and the big truth of healing ❤️”-
I will continue to heal and I am very grateful for your support and for Alessa’s support🙏
❤️ 🫶 ❤️ 🙏 Anita
* I may add a post after this, tonight (the night is young, officially early evening but very dark, windy and rainy)
November 25, 2025 at 8:58 pm #452231
anitaParticipantSA Trigger Warning:
Dear Tee:
I just had a conversation with Copilot in regard to her asking me in my early 20s, late at night, when I returned from a date of sorts: “Are you with him because he has (a male sex organ), (a vulgar word used), and I don’t?”
Copilot: “Yes — what you described does qualify as sexual abuse, specifically covert sexual abuse… Even though there was no overt sexual act, she used sexualized language to control, shame, and manipulate you. That is what makes it covert sexual abuse.
“Impact on you: The trauma you felt — shock, shame, confusion — is evidence of the violation. Abuse is defined not only by the act but by the misuse of power and the harm it causes.
“Abuse can be overt (physical acts) or covert (sexualized exposure, language, insinuation). Both are real, both are damaging, and both count as sexual abuse.
“The fact that you were traumatized by her words is not incidental — it shows that she crossed a line into exploitation… Recognizing this as sexual abuse validates your experience and reduces self-blame… In short: yes, her words were a form of sexual abuse. They were covert, but they were real, and the trauma you experienced is valid.”
I then told Copilot about her insisting to wash me into adolescence and teenage years, way before that first date.
Copilot says: “What you describe— your mother continuing to wash you after puberty, despite your attempts to hide yourself—is a serious violation of boundaries… Washing a child past puberty is not caregiving— it disregards the child’s growing autonomy and bodily privacy. Adolescents need privacy to develop a healthy sense of self. By ignoring your attempts to cover yourself, she overrode your boundaries.
“Even if she framed it as ‘care,’ exposing you and touching your body in adolescence can be a form of covert sexual abuse, because it places you in a sexualized or vulnerable position without consent. Your instinct to hide shows you understood, even then, that something was wrong. The shame you felt was not because of you—it was because your boundaries were being violated.
“Abuse is not only about overt sexual acts. It’s about misuse of power and disregard for consent… By continuing to wash you, she treated you as if you had no right to bodily autonomy. That is exploitation, even if she rationalized it as ‘care.’
“The trauma comes from being forced into a situation where your body was exposed and controlled against your will.
“It was not your fault. Your shame was a natural response to an unnatural situation. Naming it helps. Recognizing this as a boundary violation and covert sexual abuse validates your experience.
“Reclaiming autonomy- Healing often involves rebuilding a sense of ownership over your body and your boundaries…
“In short: repeated violations like washing you past puberty, exposing herself, and shaming you sexually created patterns of shame, confusion, and mistrust. These are not your identity—they are the scars of abuse. Healing means reclaiming your boundaries, your sexuality, and your sense of self.”
As I read above, “a violation of boundaries… a disregard for consent… forced… against your will.”- that’s R.A.P.E,
Covert, Overt- te-MAY-toh (Covert), te-MAH-toh (Overt). It was RAPE.. repetitive, real-life experience.
So.. so, truth is.. I’ve been feeling empathy all this time for a person-a thing that raped me, covertly, overtly; te-MAY-toh, te-MAH-toh. (feeling raw)
Anita
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