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November 8, 2023 at 11:38 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #424876
seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“-(1) âso hurt you eventually start to wonder whyâ- imagine a child being so very, very hurt and so very, very alone with his hurt, that he is.. too hurt and too alone (no one there to listen and answer) to wonder why. Resigned to his questions being unanswered, he/ she stops asking. (This doesnât seem the case with you or with N).”
I think this is the case with N, he has described feeling alone in his childhood. He said he was often left home alone and played by himself. He has said that his mom didn’t really listen to him and didn’t SEE him. Then his dad, from my observations, seems like he made things about himself the majority of the time, complaining to him about his mom. He said when his mom was mad at him it automatically made her mad at his dad to, as if all his “faults” were because of his dads influence.
“but having no trace of you (when you lived with your mom) also made him upset.. So his upset-ness about you living with your mom was not about love for you⌔
I agree, it was not out of love. He would frame it as love, and make me feel so guilty as if I was not loving him enough. My mom, on the otherhand was very selfless when it came to splitting time with my parents. When I would come home from college she would sense my stress of not wanting to make anybody sad, and she would just tell me to make my dad happy and she would basically just take the leftovers.
“Routine (at your fatherâs) that includes a bad routine will not promote self-discipline. No routine (at your motherâs) will not promote self-discipline either.”
I have always felt I lacked self discipline, I struggle to stick with things like jobs (for over a year) and when I try to get on a healthy workout routine, I lose motivation at about 4 weeks. I just start to feel like what’s the point, I only have one life why am I living it with rules for myself..
” I think that in my case, my intense desire to increase my awareness since I was a teenager, perhaps since earlier.. was about my desperate need at the time to (rephrased now).. to parent my very emotionally immature mother.. to raise her, so to speak, so that she will be the mature, reliable, strong mother I needed her to be.”
Interesting, I wonder if this is part of my awareness journey as well. Something I think also encouraged becoming more aware was how my dad made me feel at the “house cleaning” meetings. He would list all these things I did that showed that I was ungrateful for a car, nice home, food, my college paid for. His rationale would completely manipulate me into feeling so bad, but the worst part was I had no idea I did all those “things” leaving dishes out, not having my car cleaned, things like that. the fact I was unaware of causing him so much pain I truly attempted to be hyper aware and thought of how every little thing I did could possibly be interpreted to him. I once told him I felt I was walking on egg shells and he literally laughed and thought that was ridiculous and said he was so easy to have a conversation with if I wanted to. But at the time I didn’t know how to express myself, as his rational, made sense to me and I thought everything was just my fault.
“âWhat is really cool, is my current roommate is one of my good friends from high-school⌠She said I have always been very cautious of the type of people I spent my time with, shying away from toxic peopleâŚâ- severely immature parents are toxic to their children. Even if and when they try to be good parents.”
Is it because I had toxic parents at home that when I got to school I had no energy for any more toxic people? As if I went to school already exhausted and drained I couldn’t take on any more?
” a care free child, a state of mind possible when and where there is someone mature and strong, self-reliant and not so needy- to depend on.”
How do I allow myself to be in a care free child state, and a strong self-reliant adult, at the same time? For example, if one day hatchling is craving a care free childlike day of arts/crafts but adult Seaturtle needs to be self-reliant and go to her job where hatchling has to sit still. I assume the answer is not to deny one for the other to shine.
“Trusting him to be the parent that you need will lead to ongoing frustration on your part and on his. Itâs a misplaced, inappropriate trust.. similar perhaps to.. your fatherâs misplaced, inappropriate trust or expectation that you will be.. the strong, mature and attentive mother that he didnât have.”
This is intense. Towards the end of living with my dad and after, I thought his misplaced trust or expectations of me were those that he expected and never received from my mother. Which now that I think about it is probably true too, he first misplaced them onto my mom, was disappointed, then did it to me… what do you think about this? The reason, however, that I felt it was specifically misplaced trust and attentiveness he didn’t receive from my mother is because he treated me as though I didn’t deserve to be trusted. My mom broke his trust in many ways, and it was as if he treated my teenage years of sneaking out to parties I wasn’t allowed to go to, as if I had cheated on him in marriage. The thing that makes it worse is my “sneakiness” was so much less than majority of teenagers and all of my friends. I snuck out to go hiking with my friends cause he didn’t want me around boys without parents at age 16. I snuck out to play soccer with my friends. He also treated me like I was a (very bluntly put) like I was a slut like my mom. By this I mean, my mom was always a flirt, with all the dads on my soccer team even my coaches, I wasn’t allowed to hangout with the friends whose dads she was friendly with. My mom, as I have said before, cheated on my dad many times. Before leaving to school from ages 13-18 my outfits would get checked, and I began to change at school. My dad would edit any outfit that was flattering on me, even jeans and a t shirt. no makeup allowed. When he told me I wasn’t allowed to wear jeans without a shirt that covered my butt… that is when I started changing at school. He would tell me “boys actually want and respect a girl who dresses modestly” he would promote outfits that made me look like a box. I am a curvy girl and still to this day finding flattering clothes is not my strength, I often feel either too sexy or too boxy. (my exact thoughts about my two outfits at the wedding I went with Nathan to, where I had a panic attack about my clothes)
This brings me to a childhood story, I wrote in my original post. When it comes to being a “care free child,” I wonder if things like controlling my clothing contributed to not allowing me to be a “care free child”? At age 13 taking away the innocence of my clothing my sexualizing me and telling me how boys would think. The story: I was 11 years old, my friends were playing outside, my friend S was allowed to wear whatever she wanted, that day she had the shortest shorts on I had ever seen. Not wanting to replicate, but to feel like I fit in, I wore some shorts that were no where near as short as hers but were my shortest ones, that my mom got me and said were fine. Before I made it outside to play, my dad stopped me and said the shorts were inappropriate and I needed to change to longer ones that reached my knees! I was so embarrassed at the shorts he wanted me to wear as they were not flattering at all and they accentuated my knees, which at the time I was insecure about because my soccer uniform caused my knees to get more tan/darker than the rest of my body! I am Hawaiian (on my moms side) and tan very well. I was so embarrassed I decided not to go out and play anymore. This is my first memory of having suicidal thoughts. I hurt myself, a little bit, in that moment. (trigger warning of what I actually did, you don’t have to read if you don’t want to, I think the story can be understood without,if so stop reading skip to next paragraph now) : I went to the kitchen, got a knife from the drawer and went back to my room and held it to my bare chest, I remember wanting to end it right there, but after just leaving a very small red dot, I put it under my bed) I don’t remember what I did after this, whether I went outside or stayed in my room.
“As a matter of fact, he recently told you that you were bringing him down.. down with your heavy overreactionsâŚ? Maybe he is angry at you for feeling like he has to walk on eggshells, that any little misdeed or perceived misdeed can cause a bomb to go off.”
Yes because of my prolonged overreactions. And yes I don’t doubt that a part of him is angry he has to walk on eggshells. However there is part of me that can sense when he accidentally steps on the shells and when he does it out of anger as if to test my reaction. This was the case with being late for dinner that night. So I wrote the post about being upset he was late for dinner the following morning, but this is how I reacted that night: When he told me he was running late, which is definitely appreciated over just showing up late, my text response was “really?:/” as that very day I had said “hey can we please make 5pm work, I’d like a time to look forward to,” so it just really felt like really? anyways, I did not want this to ruin our night, so with the hour I had before his arrival, I told myself “he loves me” “this isn’t on purpose”-but I didn’t believe this one… so I continued with other affirmations like “he likes to spend time with me” “he is trying.” I was able to calm my anxiety, when he showed up it re-appeared inside me but I didn’t say anything in the anxiety and after about 15 min we were sitting down and I felt at peace and we enjoyed the evening together. When I wrote the post the next morning, the feelings rose up again, and it made me wonder if the night before I “over-tamed” hatchling? What do you think?
 “N is a nice, hard working young man who is being mistaken for some other person (your father). What if you are putting him into that box, the box of being cold like your fatherâŚ?”
When I read this the first time I giggled to myself because I can see the irony.
“â N is not CALLOUS (but may be in the process of becoming callous with you). Itâs your father who was and is CALLOUS with you. Think of this, if you will: there is a real-life universe and an alternate, or a parallel universe. Hatchling used to live in a real-life universe: her childhood, when she was a real-life child.”
It is my nightmare that N become actually callous like my father. How do I allow hatchling to deal with her unfished business with our father without using N as the target in this parallel universe? Is the better question, how do I replace N with my actual father in that parallel universe?
With love,
Seaturtles đ
November 8, 2023 at 10:23 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #424868seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I fully responded to your first message and it got deleted somehow cause I was logged out of the forum! I am very sad. I will re-do my reply now.
Seaturtle
November 7, 2023 at 9:42 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #424838seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“â She is re-experiencing her relationship with her father while in a relationship with N ever since it became a long-enough relationship, longer than all your past relationships. It was bound to happen no matter who youâd be in a romantic relationship, once the relationship lasts long-enough and you become .. (too) attached to the man.”
So is the answer through the relationship? I started to have this feeling about a year into the relationship but the past year has been the “8 months my mind hasn’t rested” (the title of my first forum). Does ending this cycle require me to be alone with hatchling more? or to actually spend more time with N to build trust?
I am not sure if this is hatchling or objective truth, but sometimes it seems like N tries to make me disconnect from him. His mom is quite cold when it comes to affection and nurturing. But I am the opposite, I love to nurture and take care of others. Sometimes I feel like N does things, unconsciously, that intentionally bring out my cold side, like his mother. But I do not like to be cold, it feels terrible when I feel triggered and my warmth hides away. For example, like I mentioned in my post, November 4, 2023 at 1:33 pm, the next morning, Saturday, was obviously a delicate day after that miscommunication about spending the day together, we both cried, him after seeing me truly struggle to calm down. The next morning feeling so delicate, it really felt like he kicked me while I was down by texting me so coldly, when I asked when we were meeting for lunch he says âI ate lunch at 10am lolâ, like this message is such a brush off and the “lol,” like does he have zero sensitivity? Then he just straight up says  âit means weâre not gonna see each other today.â He knew that would trigger the whole evening to me, he knows me better than to think that wouldn’t hurt. I do not understand this lack of empathy and sensitivity from him and this honestly just triggered another panic attack, which is the moment I wrote the post on November 4, 2023 at 1:33 pm. THEN the next evening, Sunday night, he was to come over for dinner and he was an hour late! Just kicked again while I was down. Honestly I literally felt like he just wanted me to be cold like his mother, but if he is going to try to put me into that box I want to be far away from him. I haven’t talked to him about the CALLOUS text messages or being late, on top of everything that had just happened! because he will just get defensive and it will ruin our time together. But it really bothers me.
with love,
hatchling and possibly Seaturtle in defense of her
November 6, 2023 at 2:58 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #424823seaturtleParticipant“What he did see of you (traces of you).. he didnât want to see. He wanted to clean his house from.. you”
“But your emotional reactions were not about the present situation. Hatchling- for whom the past is the present, as there is no distinction between past & present.. and Everything is still happening NOW)”
“If you noticed, I did not address this post to hatchling. What do you (the adult. Seaturtle) think and feel about this post?”
It makes me have grace for my (hatchling’s) response, but it also makes me feel out of control. Hatchling wants out of my fathers house, and I want her to be out as well, I left his house 4 years ago. Is being with N too similar to living with my father for her? Does hatchling need a more nurturing partner or even none at all? I feel like your answer to this will be ‘no, Seaturtle needs to be more nurturing’ but I am doing everything I can and I still feel overwhelmed by hatchling’s responses to N. But even you have said he is the perfect partner, so why is it so hard for me to feel safe and rested.
Wanting to run away now is a similar feeling to when I would want to run away from my dad.
Seaturtle
November 6, 2023 at 10:49 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #424817seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
In response to your reply on (November 3, 2023 at 12:11 pm)
“he said this time, meaning that at other times he felt badly⌠If thatâs what he meant (without necessarily meaning to express it to you), then he is aware of feeling badly when in his parentsâ home.”
Interesting observation. Yes he has, but he didn’t notice it this time? Yes it is very possible he just didn’t want to talk about it. He doesn’t like to talk about emotions or feelings, I have to tiptoe around this, which is hard cause I do want to. He often feels good and “closer to me” when we do talk about feelings but starting is super delicate.
” Something about your childhood was positive enough to make it possible for you to have the level of awareness that you do today. Maybe he wasnât that.. fortunate.”
Interesting. I haven’t thought of my awareness coming from something “positive” from “childhood.” For some reason I felt it was negative childhood and positive adulthood that caused forced awareness after being made to feels so badly, so hurt you eventually start to wonder why. What do you think about this?
“CBT is effective when it comes to challenging the inner childâs emotion-led thoughts (aka emotional reasoning) and leading her into believing what is objectively true vs what she feels is true. Over time, hatchling will believe what is objectively true.”
This gives me hope, CBT is something I will pursue. I often feel emotion driven and confused about objective truth.
“âI often felt free-er with my mom, but safer with my dadâ- I didnât know that you feel safer with your father⌠Would you like to elaborate on this sentence, the whole sentence?”
I am glad you asked for clarification here because reading it back it can be misleading. After not speaking to my mom for a year, ages 16-17, my heart ached for her so much that I forced compartmentalized “my mom” and “the woman who hurt my dad/family.” Also, living with my dad gave me insight as to why my mom “rebelled,” he made it hard to tell him the truth cause he was not very understanding if you did not have exact rational language that he would understand. When I opened back up to my mom I stayed with her for several months, which by the way made my dad upset, he would get annoyed if I spent more time with her than him. He felt it was unfair? I am honestly not sure where his mood swings stemmed from. When I stayed with my mom, we would smoke weed together, she had a dab pen that she shared with me, I had tried once experimentally with a friend at 16, but with her was my first time consistently. When I stayed with her for a certain amount of time I would start to feel a little unhinged, like I needed a routine. My dad’s home was very routine, he had a gym there and had all his meals planned in the fridge. By saying my dads home had more “safety” what I really mean is consistency and routine. I would swing back and forth between my moms and dads, one with fun: takeout food, random activities, crafts, I think my mom was trying to get me to “like her” again, so she just gave me whatever I wanted, this is what I meant by feeling free-er. Then the other with reliability and structure: healthy food, workouts, waking up early, no excuses for days off.
wow I am having a realization. I have felt this way in my life for a long time. I switch between structure/routine and impulsivity/desires. When I am in one for a certain amount of time, about 4 weeks, I CRAVE the other…This is actually something I have felt was “wrong” with me. It affects my work, I often get inspired by the structure of my job, then after too much I start to call out of work, stay home and paint/whatever craft I am currently inspired by. I have been fired by jobs because of this and told by two employers I take too much time off… But I have yet to find a job I care enough about, I get to the point of not caring if they fire me cause I want a new routine anyway. Acting in plays, classes and improv are actually the only activities I don’t desire to cancel on or take breaks from.
“We adapt by figuratively closing our eyes to what scares us/ minimizing awareness. Fast forward, as adults, our eyes are still closed and our awareness- blocked to one extent or another, often significantly.”
This may be why I have such an intense desire to increase my awareness, because of the previous lack. What is really cool, is my current roommate is one of my good friends from high-school. That was a time in my life where I was very unaware, for the reasons you just said. I feel a disconnect with that version of myself, my memory is as if I was a robot, disconnected and pretending to be someone else so that I fit in and could avoid not being accepted. But my roommate has talked about my high-school self, being similar to how I am now, in ways. She said I have always been very cautious of the type of people I spent my time with, shying away from toxic people. She also pointed out that I have always been a “one friend at a time” girl, getting close with one person for a season before they became part of my circle. It was nice to hear her talk about my teenage self, it helps me to connect/ resonate with that version of myself.
(I will respond to your next reply in a separate message)
With love,
Seaturtles
November 4, 2023 at 1:51 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #424792seaturtleParticipantIt just feels like love is so painful
November 4, 2023 at 1:40 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #424791seaturtleParticipantI am sorry for being dramatic, I feel immature and weak for it. I feel like I cannot handle how he disconnects from me and don’t know if I can handle this relationship. It brings me to such low places that make me very depressed. But as you said he’s perfect for me, so if it’s not him maybe I just can’t handle any intimate relationship, but then I would be so lonely, I just don’t see light at the end of the tunnel right now.
November 4, 2023 at 1:33 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #424790seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I will read your last message after this post, because I would like to write it while I am in the feeling of it. I am feeling very down this morning, but I am having a hard time pin pointing why.
Last night, opening night of my play, the actual play went great! But the night had a crazy low point for me. Typically N and I reserve Sundays for eachother to spend, but when I got the performance schedule a couple weeks ago I told N that friday night was opening night with an after party with the cast, and then I had saturday free and was busy on sunday with a matinee performance that would take up most of the day. I understand where the miscommunication happened as I did not explicitly ask to spend saturday with him, but I assumed he understood that when I gave him my schedule. Anyways, last night he met me before the play to wish me luck, he was dressed so nice and brought me flowers, I was so excited. The whole day I was so incredibly nervous, but my happy place was just laying in bed with him in the morning. He wished me luck and then said “just so you know I have to leave right after the after party for a work thing.” I was dumfounded, “are you serious? wait what do you mean you were gonna spend the night I thought?” He had no idea I thought this, even though I know I mentioned it, I know I did. I was so sad but he said he could reschedule what he had that evening and stay the night. Then he said “but I have to leave very early” I was so confused I said “what do you mean we are spending the day?” and again he had no idea and said he worked all day! I was distraught and shocked, for about 15 minutes I was trying to breathe through a complete panic attack. I am crying now writing this as I still feel it. I told him how much I looked forward to the day, how much we NEEDED it since the last weekend we were with his parents. I am still, upset that when I gave him my schedule he didn’t THINK about us or me at all and I was clearly stating I was free saturday and I said it in person at the very least once, but he just wasn’t listening? I then told him it would just mean everything to me to get that time with him saturday. He did nothing to try and reschedule anything. I know this is triggering my abandonment issues but it feels so strong even still, I had terribly anxious dreams and can’t see my screen through tears right now. I feel broken for feeling so sad about this. I feel like I can’t function in this relationship. I am writing this in the feeling and I know when I feel more centered, not sure when, but when I do I will see this is an overreaction but it feels terrible. We spoke about it again at the end of the show, before the party and he said if I can’t except that things can’t be perfect and bad things often come along with great things, then I won’t enjoy the relationship. He said I was bringing him down. I told him I knew it was an overreaction but I couldn’t stop it from happening, he consoled me and I felt good for the rest of the evening to enjoy it. But after terrible dreams then him not communicating with me this morning I just feel crushed. He said we could get lunch today and I had to text him at12:30 to ask what was going on to which he said “I ate lunch at 10am lol” (this was very triggering, why is he just brushing me off? lol? why is he acting so casual about this thing that I said so many times and showed with emotion was so important to me??)Â and I said soo what does that mean, and he said “it means we’re not gonna see each other today.” I feel so intensely triggered, like he doesn’t even care. He saw how sensitive I was last night to seeing him today and that’s all he says? I just can’t believe it I literally feel like he is trying to trigger me, I don’t know if that is true but it makes me feel like he is not sensitive and empathic enough for me and I want to completely run away right now. I quite literally want to break up with him right now. He does not see me at all if he can act that casually and non-communicative over text after all that we went through last night. If he cannot love me right now by being sensitive to me at all for how affected I was last night then I don’t want to be with him he will only prevent my growth. I just feel terrible and don’t know if I can handle this relationship but that thought scares me so much and makes me just not know if I can handle anything.
I don’t even feel like I can tell him that I feel triggered and so sad by his cold texts, because he will just be annoyed that I am bringing it up again. I literally feel like he is testing me and I want to end it.
Seaturtle and hatchling
November 3, 2023 at 2:58 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #424769seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I will read and respond by Tuesday morning, earlier if I find the time. Tonight is opening night for my performance in a the Shakespeare play! N will be there and I am very nervous and want to come back to read when I can focus. Have a great weekend!
November 2, 2023 at 3:28 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #424741seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“for a little girl, a young child (hatchling), a scenario where a parent abandons her for another child (a prettier child, a smarter child, etc.) means death” … “Fast forward, projecting your father into your boyfriend, you fear being abandoned by him for another young woman.. one who is more to his (Nâs) standards, and the fear feels like the fear of death.”
I think back to my childhood, I am the oldest of four and I always did everything I could for my dads approval, I dedicated myself to a sport, which I did have fun with, but I also never thought there was another option, it just never occurred to me, it was to just keep getting better and I found satisfaction in the improvement I saw in myself. I did take a-lot from it, hard work does get you results, I did intense workouts every day that he would ask me about at every dinner. Many days I of course wanted to skip a workout and didn’t but I didn’t because I wanted to be able to say yes when he asked me at dinner. I eventually did get in very good shape, which helped me feel more confident in my sport. He complimented my physic, I will never forget him commenting how fit I looked in the “love-handle” area while at the beach in Hawaii, I remember feeling odd about it but also satisfied that he was proud. This to say, I did “follow the rules” of his conditional support, in fact I feel the sister I had a bad relationship for a while with, resented me because I was setting a lofty expectation that she felt short of. I was the one chose over her… so it is interesting to me that I still fear not being “the chosen one.” It is almost like since I WAS, now I can’t not be.. that feeling of “death” is so real, it truly is that intense. Is the solution here also emotion regulation skills?
“I canât think of a better partner for you.”
This is very sweet, thank you đ
“Hatchling grew up with this instinctual fear being triggered. She is still afraid of being completely abandoned.” … “Objectively, N ending the game when he did, and the way he did, was not abusive or even rude, in my estimation. Subjectively, it felt terrible to hatchling because she is so very sensitive to any event that, to her, has a taste of abandonment, no matter how vague, weak, or minor.. or non-existent the taste is in objective terms.” … “For hatchling, any taste of abandonment from someone she needs emotionally (N), is a clear-and-present danger, strong and major.”
Making note of this.
“â N canât be nice enough to undo what your uncles did to hatchling, nor can he be nice enough to change the conditional âloveâ of your father, and turn it into an unconditional love. Your healing may require quality professional therapy.”
My first and only therapist that I have had was quality but her way of doing things was very hands off, she was awesome and her method worked for that time of my life where I was being awakened, but now I would like more intense therapy where someone can actually give me the type of insight that you do. Rather than just sort of having someone who just listens, with very light amount insight/advice. What type of therapy would you recommend?
“âThe fact the disconnect is on his end I feel alleviated of blame, but then I still feel the concern for its end, because it is in his control and that feels unstable to meâ- I am not sure I understand this part, but Iâll say this: N is not Perfect, but reads to me that he is.. close enough to it (and nobody is perfect). He makes mistakes and he will make mistakes in the future.“
– By this I meant, N is not aware that being at his parents house caused him to feel the same as when he was a child. He is not aware, that going on that little hike, on that torn up trail where I felt disconnected from him, has to do with something going on inside of him.   Before I saw your comment:
(“âPerhaps I can still ask him even though the feelings are not fresh on his mind?â- you asked this in regard to the unpleasant walk in nature when taking a break from being in the distressing company of his parents. I suggest that you ask him this if and when he brings up the topic of his parents.”)
I actually asked him this morning, how he has felt since the trip or reflected on how he felt back at his parents, and he just said “I enjoyed it and didn’t feel badly there this time..” As I am really putting effort into how I feel and why, I have this feeling like he is not on that same path and I have a desire for him to be on it too. I want him to be aware of his feelings on that torn up path, and I want him to be aware that he disconnected from me there. I know he is amazing and not perfect, so I don’t want to have unrealistic expectations, but I can’t help but crave the same self awareness.
My rational self, outside of the feeling, can see that he didn’t do anything wrong in the game situation. When you said “N canât be nice enough to undo what your uncles did to hatchling” I can see how this can be true, but unfortunately I don’t think my feelings follow my rationale here. When I read this there is a part of me that understands and a part of me, I am assuming hatchling, who still believes he can be nice enough to heal me … I don’t necessarily believe it, but I feel it, if that makes sense. It is an interesting feeling to feel split internally here.
“(2) Experiencing these feelings is human and there will always be feelings that are uncomfortable to feel, but you can lower the intensity of these feelings via emotion regulation skills, which means to indeed lower their volume.”
This is so interesting because it goes along with my internally split feelings, like I mentioned just before. It’s like when I am in the emotion I can see it overpowering me, I can’t escape it cause I don’t yet have the tools, but I find myself searching for tools when I am in the emotion. I realize there is a lack of emotional regulation skills while in it and it can be a very paralyzing place to be.
“hatchlingâs trauma/ fear of abandonment (which took hold way before you ever met N), and therefore, it is not about Nâs actions.”
I am circling back to this, you mentioned much earlier in your last post, but it stuck with me. When you used the analogy of a fawn and her mother and abandonment = death, it got me wondering where exactly this fear of abandonment is from. These are my two hypotheses:
My dad did was not really ever emotionally there. But as far as physical abandonment, he did move out, and into a hotel after my moms final time cheating on him. I of course understood because I knew why he was leaving and I actually agreed with it, I would have done the same. So I don’t think I felt abandoned, but maybe I felt it was unfair I was left with her and he didn’t take me. Once he got a house, about 6 months later I decided to move in with him.
My mom was emotionally in and out, she had a drinking problem, I found out later. She always had a glass of wine in her hand, it never made her aggressive with us, infact she was perhaps too clingy to us with it, she would get extra affectionate. But her wine self is almost like an inauthentic affection feeling .. Then when I moved out with my dad, I left her, so she didn’t abandon me? In fact she reached out to me all the time but I did not respond to her for about a complete year. After a year I ended up spending alot of time with her cause I missed her, then the time with both my parents started to sway back and forth, depending on where I felt more free. I often felt free-er with my mom, but safer with my dad.
“hatchling needs you to be gentle with her. Every one of her feelings carries a message with it. It is only after you thoroughly heard each message, that each feeling- having served its purpose- will.. no longer be there to distress you.”
I assume I will just know when this message is received. I do wonder though, are the messages sort of like realizations of the true reason hatchling is afraid, mixed with some awareness as to why it is a fear that is not helpful .. ? This is an abstract thought that, if true, I have felt before, but can’t pin my finger on what scenario exactly I have felt this before.
Always with Love
Seaturtle & hatchling
November 1, 2023 at 10:19 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #424419seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“I understand. I wanted to send you a how-are-you inquiry earlier, but figured you are probably busy with the challenging visit and long flight back to AZ. (I was concerned about your relationship).”
Thank you for understanding and I really feel your concern and thank you for that as well. I was concerned too. Feeling not only disconnected but then those hopeless thoughts of “will this ever end?” “how many more times will I feel like this with him, is it going to be the majority of our relationship?” “can I handle this?” The fact the disconnect is on his end I feel alleviated of blame, but then I still feel the concern for its end, because it is in his control and that feels unstable to me.
“In the scenario you described, that walk in nature, what I would have done in your shoes would be to gently, kindly invite N to talk about how he was feeling, if he wanted to. If he said no, or ignored my invitation. Iâd just endure the walk and try to be calm about it (not taking his disconnected/ angry behavior personally).”
I hope to be able to do this in the future. I wasn’t aware at the time that he was the cause of the disconnect, I thought it was me. Perhaps I can still ask him even though the feelings are not fresh on his mind?
“â like I wrote earlier in this post, feelings just happen: No Choice=>No Guilt. I am adding: No Choice=> No Shame (regarding feelings like envy, jealousy, anger, etc.)”
I am trying to visualize if this would have helped me in that moment. To say to myself “these feelings are not my fault.” Does that give the feelings less power? I just wonder where these insecure feelings stem from so that I can pull it out by the root. Or is experiencing these feelings simply human and will always be there, it’s just a matter of how loud you let them be?
Thank you for your concern about my relationship it feels so nice, and gives me hope, to have someone hearing and seeing me â¤ď¸
Seaturtle & hatchling
October 31, 2023 at 1:16 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #423867seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I apologize for my later response, my trip to see my partners family was consuming in many ways and I am just now reading this response. The following day him and I stayed at an aribnb together for a friends wedding (the main reason we went on the trip) and I just wanted to do my best to be present and not make the drive about me, which I inevitably would have done if I saw a response from you, I would have needed to express it to him, but I did not want to overwhelm him with my feelings.
I am now reading your response.
Wow your view of what happened is very perceptive and I appreciate it so much. I now wish I had read it before so I could have better seen the hurt n. I completely blamed myself for feeling disconnected. I thought perhaps his parents relationship scared me and made me hyper aware of any sort of disconnect on his end, which it probably did which exacerbated my feelings when he disconnected from me. When I feel disconnected from him I tend to think something is either wrong with me or the relationship, but if the disconnect is happening from his end, how to I detect and remedy this?
This explains why when we left to go to our airbnb, after a bit of disconnect remaining between us on the drive over, as soon as we got to the cabin, and I mean AS SOON AS we got there, I felt more connected to him than ever. We had such a bonding moment where I believe we both felt very safe. We cuddled on the couch, then I gave him a haircut for the wedding and we got ready together. We again were connected the next morning and through our whole drive home, even at his parents house, but then after dinner had another disconnect (I will share in the paragraph after next)
There was however another issue I had, it wasn’t between US it was, I am pretty sure, between seaturtle and hatchling.. While we were getting ready for the wedding, I tried on the dresses I brought. I couldn’t afford a new one and my only option were a couple in my closet I hadn’t worn before or in a long time. I tried on all three and did not feel confident. I thought about how I would be compared with the other women there .. I am not proud of this and new it was not a helpful thought but I felt it very deeply. I then also forgot my regular makeup essentials. After this final straw I broke down into tears and thought I couldn’t go. I had thoughts like “N will be attracted to another girl and I won’t compare,” “His friends won’t think I am good enough looking for him.” I should mention, this was a wedding for one of his highschool friends and were all going to be people from his past I had never met. I was actually terrified on the inside to run into an ex girlfriend of his or someone he had a crush on. My head spun with thoughts of comparison with those girls as well and for some reason, hatchling thought she would literally just die if there was a scenario where he had an ex/crush there that I thought was prettier than me.. I feel very vulnerable sharing this because I am not proud of my insecurities, I am not sure why they occur either. I wish I had my head high enough to not be bothered by such superficial little things. In the end, N was really there for me and helped me through the panic attack and I felt strong enough to finish getting ready and make it work. Once I arrived at the wedding I instantly felt safer as I met his friends and did not feel less than them or judged negatively for the way I looked and behaved. I enjoyed the rest of the wedding. However, a voice remains in my head even now, “If you WERE faced with someone who made you feel inferior physically or behaviorally, you would have been crushed with anxiety.” …
The next day our drive home was lovely and we stopped for breakfast and had some very engaging conversation and I learned some new things about N. I love how he pays attention to world affairs and has such a level head about what is happening around him. It makes me feel safe. It also intrigues me because I do want to know about those things too and look forward to more of those conversations. Once we got back to his parents house I still felt connected to him up until after dinner and we started playing a board game with his mom, it was late and N did say later he was tired and trying to end the game already, but this is what happened: We were playing a game where we all have to sort of build something and the person that does the best in many ways wins, however you can’t win if you don’t at least complete what you build. I wasn’t very good at it, but his mom said that she goes easy on people who haven’t played and typically will at least give everyone the time to complete their building. It was the end of the game and N’s mom was about to win but she put off winning so that I, the last one to finish, could complete my building. But then N comes in and finishes his, ending the game, leaving me unfinished. When I looked at him he had a straight face with a “sucks to suck” attitude. I asked him to not do that so I could finish but he continued to do so with no sort of playful smile or anything. This hurt me deeply .. I am not saying these are rational feelings, infact I know they aren’t but in that moment I felt he didn’t love me, didn’t see me, didn’t care about me or my feelings, I felt like he completely abandoned me. I held back tears. He then left the table to go outside to probably smoke (weed) with his dad and I was left at the table sad and alone with his mom just holding back all my feelings. That night he came to tuck me into bed and I was too afraid to start the conversation about my pain, I was too afraid of him denying my feelings and I knew how badly that would hurt me so I ignored the feelings and we snuggled before he went to his bed downstairs.
Next day we drive to the airport. My feelings about the night before caught me by surprise again while we were waiting to board the plane. A family next to us were playing a game, maybe that is what reminded me Im not exactly sure. Anyways I can’t hold back this time so I tell N how I felt about the way the game ended. He said that my feelings were not warranted for the actions that he did. He said what he did should not lead to my reaction. I told him he didn’t understand my trauma of feeling betrayed by a teammate (life teammate, we were not on a team in the game). He said he felt hurt that I didn’t know what it felt like to be on opposite teams of a friend you have to play against, as he experienced that a lot in football and knew it wasn’t easy. I told him there should be a better way to play games together, that he should be able to be kind to me while playing with me and that there should be guidelines between us. I told him we should never be the one to screw the other person over. It is ok if you/your team wins but there is a kinder/ more loving way to do it, I wanted him to let me at least finish building as he would have still one, but I felt what he did was rude. to this he responded with laughter like I was completely rediculous for calling him rude about a game. He said “it’s just a game” MULTIPLE times, but this only made me feel invalidated cause obviously I was expressing feelings that went beyond a game. To which he responded “so then it sounds like we just can’t play games together because you can’t be a good sport.” I literally wanted to strangle him when he said this, my body was so uncomfortable I felt like I could burst with energy and run a 5k. We did resolve this conversation, I think (although as I write this it still upsets me ..). When I told him that having all those uncles growing up, like 6 older brothers I was bullied in games, they would gang up on me and cheat so that I always lost, if I was about to win they would cheat, sometimes they were just better and won without cheating but again I was like 8 and they were 13-20 years old making an 8 year old feel slow and stupid. My siblings and I literally can’t play games with my dad anymore without witnesses, because he would change rules to fit him and have these rational reasons as to why all his rules made sense. He NEVER let us win. We would be crying at the games and my mom would actually call him a bully to which he just said we needed to learn… I tried to express to N that I was bullied in games growing up but even those words coming out of my mouth made me feel stupid like “can I really not handle a game?” anyways when I told N I felt unloved, abandoned and like he was like one of my uncles who teamed up on me while I was abandoned and left alone to fight an army, he comforted me. N told me that he was always on my side and that he loved me, this melted me into tears… It is all I needed to hear to feel safe again. But there is still a part of me, I realized as I wrote this, that just wants him to be “nicer” to just ME, his life teammate, when it comes to games. and I think we still disagree here and I am scared to revisit it and be told he won’t do it or it’s just on me to be less sensitive.
Anita, this response came flowing through me at my computer. I feel more in tuned with my feelings than ever before and I have a fear you will tire of this forum, but I want you to know it is so helpful to me and I really appreciate you. I look forward to your response, hopefully â¤ď¸
With love,
Seaturtle & hatchling
October 27, 2023 at 9:56 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #423802seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
âBut you didnât feel good because his very-cold-version was pre-imprinted in your brain Fast forward, when someone gives you love, in your mind, you are experience the mix that you received in childhood.â
this makes sense.
I am at my boyfriends parents house right now, we got here just early this morning after a 3 hour flight. Before I met him to leave for the airport I woke up early and mediated, I wanted to be there for my partner this weekend. As I know it brings up things for me when I visit home. Anyways I was feeling good this morning but then I got to his house and about 3 hours in feel exhausted. I asked him if we could go on a walk, hoping to feel connected to him and for it to remind me of why I am doing this, because I love him. We go on a walk and he begins exploring the outdoors and starts leading me down this very torn up valley of dead trees, hard to walk through and calls me a baby for complaining about the mud and the âtrailâ that had clearly been just destroyed. I donât know if it was all the dead trees or the complete lack of his attention (not sure why I felt I needed it so bad), as I kept having to remind him not to keep walking so far infront of me as I stumbled, but I became so anxious. I was overwhelmed about having to go back inside to socialize, I was tired and felt like I was complaining to him. I truly donât like his parents relationship, they are so passive aggressive and constantly hurting eachother and just moving past it. They have no shared hobbies and pretty much live separate lives sad the other wonât join them. Anyways, I feel bad for being anxious and complaining to him, because I wanted to be there for him! I feel selfish as if I made his trip home to his family about me. I donât know why I did this, I have felt disconnected with him ever since we got here and I want to understand why and find out how to ease this anxiety. We are sleeping separately here and so I have some space tonight and tomorrow morning to try to get my mind right. But I feel stumped and disappointed in myself.
with love
seaturtlesOctober 25, 2023 at 12:48 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #423735seaturtleParticipantHi anita!
Thank you for your support and congratulations đ I am excited too!
âI truly thought they were solved but maybe I was just ignoring hatchling and the real solution is to actually unlearn my bodyâs learned response to love and learn to see how others do care about me? I often feel my friends donât care about me and do things without considering me .. and this is all being directed at N! what do you think about this?â- I am not clear about what you are asking here. Can you rephrase it clearly?
-I read something on a different forum platform (Reddit), someone started a topic about not being able to receive love from her boyfriend, to help sort the two people in the discussion I will call the girl “Red” and the boy “Blue”.
I am summarizing the parts of Red’s post that really resonated with me: Red says “I was treated pretty badly throughout my school years and bullied in high school. I find myself having pretty low sense of self worth and I feel unlovable sometimes.” Red says “I don’t know how to accept his compliments; I say thank you, but on the inside I feel he is lying .. but I know rationally that isn’t true. I feel guilty and I feel like I need to pay him back in some way. I know people do nice things and I should just let them but I feel so guilt because I feel like I don’t deserve it.” “These patterns kind of spill over into my platonic relationships as well. I find myself wanting to love others, but never wanting to be loved. I love spoiling my friends with small gifts and favors .. I feel like I can’t depend on people how they depend on me.” “People say I am not a bad person, but I can’t help but feel like I am a bad person on the inside and I just masquerade as a good friend, and eventually someone is going to rip off this mask that I have and discover the truth.”
Red then receives a response that I found very helpful, Blue (the responder) was bullied as well and says ever since “I was playing a game of emotional catchup with self worth because everyone hated me.” For me, Seaturtle, it is not hate, instead it is people thinking I am awkward or too quiet, weird. Blue continues “So I thought I was just prone to receiving hatred because of who I was. I tried to get people to like me. It worked, but I kept them at an arms distance for sure and I never got better. I had to start letting people get closer and get to know me and not the smiley cardboard cutout of me. Many years later, I began to realize that I was not unlovable, it was that those kids couldn’t love others properly.” Blue continues “Understand that the guilt, anxieties of being a bad person, and secret lying are all a response to stressors and not the same as reality. It’s just your brain trying to defend you from people loving you.” “your brain currently thinks love and kindness is danger. Like whenever someone shows you love and you get that response of “wtf why are you doing this? I don’t deserve this” that’s a response to what your mind perceives as danger. Another tip is to remind yourself that when you’re receiving love, you’re not gonna die. It’ll retrain your brain and over time it’ll put love in the not danger category and you’ll get different reactions.”
-This point hit me hard, when I said “my body’s learned response to love” this is where I got that idea. when I said “the real solution is to actually unlearn my bodyâs learned response to love and learn to see how others do care about me?” I was referring to this idea of training my brain to put receiving love into a non-danger category.
-When Red talks about ripping off a mask I feel the same way. In new social situations I feel like I have this false sense of confidence and someone will see beyond the mask and see how insecure/awkward/odd I am and that I am faking the confidence to fit in. I fear that if I allow people closer than an arms distance, they will see behind my mask and be disgusted and reject me.
-My question is this, Is my brain defending me from love? Because if I am not able to see/receive love from others then I will be so thirsty for it that I demand it from my love partner.
-I hope this clarified what I am getting at, as opposed to making it more confusing adding Red and Blue…
“- part of maturing is taming (effectively and kindly parenting) the inner child, so to not act impulsively when thoughtful action is the right thing to do, etc.. Itâs the over-taming/ the imprisoning of the inner-child that is the problem.”
This is another question that I thought of last night, the difference between taming and over-taming hatchling. I suppose I will have to get to know hatchling more and what makes her feel ignored versus relaxed/tame?
I wonder what hatchling is like when tame, it feels like she has been in a state of irritation this whole year and over-tamed before that.
Thank you again Anita đ
Seaturtles
October 25, 2023 at 10:32 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #423731seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I appreciate your update â¤ď¸
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