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March 6, 2024 at 11:26 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428429seaturtleParticipant
Dear Anita,
āWe see (3rd eye) when calm, not when under the influence of stress.ā
- I thought this would be a good place to start, from your post on February 28th. Ever since the text exchange I feel like stress/worry was slowly encroaching on my third eye, but it took me 11 days to realize this, from the conversation on the 19th until March 1st. The realization came with the help of two people. The family I nanny for, both parents are very down to earth and kind people, during my lunch and the childās nap I spoke with the dad and he told me he could sense I was in pain, I explained the stress of my things at my exās and he offered to help me go get my stuff if needed. I appreciated this but I decided if I was to do that I would have my friend P come with me. That day I concluded in my head that I needed my passport. Still unaware of where my pain was coming from I thought the solution was to show up at Nās house for my things, thinking this would bring me the conclusions I needed and relieve my anxiety about āgetting my things.ā I thought it was my things that was making me ache. P agreed to go with me on Sunday. (It still being Friday the 1st at this point. So first person to help me on my way to discover how to solve my pain was the dad I work for, realizing where the pain was, around that text exchangeā¦āmy things.ā
- That same night, my roommate, M, became the second person to help me discover further how to solve this pain. I told her about my plan to show up at Nās, and she said something that helped my third eye to waken. She pointed out, if that text exchange made me feel that badly for over the past week, that she witnessed, then why would the solution be to see him? She said āIf you go to see him you will forever remember the way he looks at you and it will just be another image you will have to work hard to get rid of.ā She also said she didnāt judge me if I did go to his home but that āyou are entering his territory and that seems dangerous to me.ā Her pointing these things out joilted part of my third eye awake, what was I thinking? Enter Nās territory so that he could show me more contempt? The idea of not seeing him again, relieved meā¦ that was when I decided getting my passport was not worth it, the hassle of getting a new one is less stressful to me than risking seeing him. My roommate also said āthe text exchange showed his maturity, but it was also you initiating it, you entering places for him to harm you.ā This hit my hard, me putting me in those situations, it was under my control to do this. I felt empowered when I realized the control I have over him harming meā¦ Thank goodness for M.
Ā
Ā
ā- what do you see when you ālookā at me via the computer screen?ā
- I like this question. However I will look forward to respond when my third eye is completely awake again soon, because I want to do the answer justice ļ
Ā
āhe healthier I am, the less complex and simpler I becomeā
- At the moment it seems my life was much simpler before I met N, yet meeting him introduced me to more of my complexities. I am curious the difference in blissful simplicity and true simplicity. A Teflon person like N and F, they claim to be simple, proud of their lack of needs, yet this is a complexity in itself..
Ā
I wrote: āIf there wasnāt better then Iād still rather be single than with himā and you responded ā- remember this realization next time you forget it.ā
- This is hard for me to remember when tiredā¦third eye must rest sometimes right? So when it rests, how do I remember this, when only the children are awake, sacral and heart. I assume over time of the repetition, the third eye repeating to the children over and over until absorbed.
I wrote I feel guilty that I couldnāt be the love he needed in his life, and you responded āI hope that this guilt is not great, and that it will shrink over time and be no more.ā
- I hope it will shrink as well and believe it will. However the guilt is great, it is something that took over me the last week, triggered by his messages. Probably triggered in the relationshipā¦ he told me before that I didnāt listen. I remember when he said this how unseen I felt, because I really believe that I do listen. F told me I didnāt listen too, prior to the āhouse-cleaning.ā It feels so far from who I am that it confuses me into thinking I donāt know myself, that I am blind and my third eye is wrong. I do listen.
I wrote āone day I wanna hear more about what it was like to do what you are doing. I thank you, because I need this, someone who cares to see me as much as they can. And you are that person right now (heart emoji, and leaf emoji because this feels very natural)ā and you responded ā- it makes my day reading this!!! (a huge snow flakes emojiā¦ it is snowing here right now, and the snowflakes are huge!)ā
- This put a smile on my face ļ huge snow-flakes makes me wonder where! My grandma texted me the other day about lots of snow in WA, she is from Hawaii and not used to this weather there I hope she can find joy in the large snowflakes too!
I wrote āThis is interesting because as mentioned above, having a parent who shamed your authenticity led us to question what our authenticity was. Creating this desire to understand ourselvesāand you responded ā- in all our communication, I never felt so similar to you, having so much in common.ā
- This brings me joy and understanding as to why you see me so well. Clearly I am still impacted by this and still question myself, given the past week or so.
ā- I didnāt share this in your thread.. how do you know I have a partner?ā
- I canāt remember where I read this, I thought it was my thread but perhaps it wasnāt. Towards the beginning of this thread, as I was curious about this site and you I was waiting for your response one day and recognized on the main page your name was in quite a few different conversations. I went to one maybe two and read very little as there is so much dialogue happening and I felt I was intruding on another persons conversation. It could have been then when I saw you write that you had a partner but I donāt know anything further than that.
Ā
ā- people would look like infants, the age of zero bias.ā
- I thought about this further yesterday as I read āthe untethered soul.ā It says āTake a moment to examine the difference between your experience of the outside world and your interactions with the mental world. When youāre just thinking, youāre free to create whatever thoughts you want in your mindā¦This inner world is an alternate environment that is under your control. The outside world, however, marches to its own lawsā¦The mental manipulation of the outer world experience allows you to buffer reality as it comes inā¦You re-create the world within your mind because you can control your mind whereas you canāt control the world.ā When I read this, I thought about how when I nanny this 18 month year old, me and her parents are telling her āthat is a treeā āthis is yellowā āthat is hot, this is cold.ā From my understanding our formative years are creating this inner worldā¦ Now as an adult, I am attempting to undo some of the inner world that was created incorrectly/misleadingā¦ right? What would happen if a child grew up with no one telling them labels, I suppose they would create their own inner world anyways right because that is a human trait. Is the world too over stimulating for us if we donāt label things and instead just move from experience to experience? I imagine entering another world that is completely new, new senses. I heard once on a podcast, this girl sees her life as this; (āparaphrasingā) āI was once a celestial being, and God approached me and asked how I would like to go to this place called earth for a millisecond of time (unquantifiable in our language) and have a human experience with a huge range of emotions and sensations, and I said absolutely!ā I wonder what you think about this, I like philosophizing this type of thing to put my life in perspective so that I can appreciate it and not waste my time here.
– I am not the same person I was before communicating with you. I see more of me because of you.
– This is amazing, I wonder what more you see now?
Ā āactually, I watched a lot of standup comedy during quarantine, (YouTube videos, not TV)!ā
- This is a bees knees moment!
next I will respond to your reply on March 5th, yesterday. Then with some more potential realizations, ah-ha moments I have had recently.
Seaturtle
March 6, 2024 at 10:27 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428426seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I am now re-reading and replying to your posts, it may take a couple hours but just so you know what is coming your way (:
Tuesday night my sleep was better than monday night’s sleep, and last night was better than tuesday, but still with one wakeup and mildly vivid dreams. I can feel myself pulling out of the haze my third eye was under and hoping replying to your posts will waken me further.
more awake Seaturtle
March 5, 2024 at 4:52 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428406seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I read your post and appreciate everything you said. However I am still exhausted after another bad sleep. I didnāt have bad dreams but I did wake up several times. This morning I started reading my book again āthe untethered soul.ā It talks about being a witness to the thoughts in your head. I think it has taken me this long, two weeks since the text exchange to pull myself out of my thoughts and see that they are not me. I feel myself leaving the exhaustion but I will be back here tomorrow to respond, with my waking third eye after a good sleep.
have a good night Anita, thank you
seaturtle
March 4, 2024 at 6:22 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428371seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
<p class=”p1″>āheād say that he has no words to describe how you made him feel.. wouldnāt he?ā</p>- that is what I would imagine yes. The fear is what if..
<p class=”p1″>āitās a fantasy that following just the right words and an explanation coming from you, heād go through a metamorphosis. Itād take many months of active psychotherapy and lots of proactive work, and not using weed daily, to make such profound, deep changes.ā</p>
- I am going to save this message in my phone so I can come back when these doubts come to my head. They arenāt gone but these are the affirmations I need, which tells me my third eye is tired? I wonder why I have these doubts so intensely the past couple weeks, so you that text exchange just really impacted me more than I can still even give it credit?
<p class=”p1″>āthere is a fitting saying: you canāt squeeze water (introspection, insight etc.) out of a stone (a person whose regularly stoned, pun intended)ā</p>
- this is funny, and I will try to remind myself this as I attempt to simmer my fears. Fears I have a feeling will return until Iāve fully believed it.
<p class=”p1″>āfantasy.ā</p>
- Ok. I believe you. I also wonder what is this fantasy fulfilling in me to keep? I once learned in therapy that āyouāre struggling to make the change becauseĀ the old behavior is still meeting a need.ā So I wonder what is this need, why am I having a painful fantasy that he could have evolved for me. Why am I doing this to myself.
<p class=”p1″>āI think it is your suppressed need and desire of childhood and adolescence to be seen and heard by those who wonāt, that is acting out at this time.ā</p>
- interesting. Perhaps this is the need right here, for some reason fantasizingĀ him seeing me is still fulfilling a needā¦ as it did in the relationship. My need to be seen. So all of this is because I still donāt feel seen, even by me? I feel seen my you, by my roommate who I enjoy spending time with, and I feel I have worked so hard to see me that it seems impossible that I donāt at least see more than before. So why do I need this, because of childhood lackā¦ so the real question is how do I fill it.
<p class=”p1″>āthis reminds me of the spider (N) and the fly (Seaturtle) analogy that I made earlier: the fly caught in the spiderās web, vibrating it with fear, the spider notices and approaches the fly to attack/ prepare it as a meal.ā</p>
- wow this is eerily similar.
ācan you watch a good movie/ listen to your favorite music.. do art, take a hot bath, so to relax?ā
- Yes I will do this. I sadly cannot take a bath yet because of my surgery incisions but a hot shower will do. I am going to make dinner and watch a nostalgic show. After expressing myself here, and even more in my notes, I feel I released enough to relax for tonight. Thank you for being here this evening, I am going to save your responses from tonight to potentially re-read.
I will be back tomorrow, but will have more time on Wednesday when I donāt work. Have a good night Anita,
less anxious and exhausted seaturtle
March 4, 2024 at 5:46 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428368seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I feel bad for my anxiety and I feel also anxious you will be disappointed that I am doubting myself so much and not confident Seaturtle. I do think these thoughts are because of the text message exchanges and I also think my anxiety is a mixture of the thoughts and bad sleep do to these lucid dreaming nights.
March 4, 2024 at 5:01 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428365seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
The interesting thing about the tiger dream was that i was pretty lucid and in the dream I knew that if I showed anxiety or fear, the tiger would bite me. My level of fear/anxiety was equivalent to the aggression or affection of the tiger. Low fear and the tiger was your friend. I began to feel anxious and the tigers looked at me and I tried ti calm myself down and calmly ask my uncle to take the tigers inside cause I was afraid. As I tried to stay calm they got closer and my fear got harder to control and I felt anxious. My anxiety was barely simmering and the tiger very slowly bit into my leg, insinuating that if I showed more fear I would be attacked. Then I woke up.
Still anxious seaturtle
March 4, 2024 at 4:51 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428364seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
Iāve had some more clarity, I know where my fear/ regret comes from. I fear that I should have Ā not ended things the way that I did. The day before the breakup I was hopeful of his awareness that he didnāt know how he came across, but when I shared that with you you pointed out the gaslighting technique there. As more clarity came to me and after reading your message of reasons to end the relationship with N, I donāt understand why I felt the need to end things so quickly rather than have a full conversation. I just wonder how that conversation would have gone and if him hearing me say I was considering breaking up and more clear as to why since I had more realizations after our dinner two nights before. I wonder if he would have heard what I was saying and felt the urgency to be more aware of his feelings, feelings he denied, passive aggression that he had previously denied and gaslighted me about.
I know I did try sooo many times in the relationship to work things out in my head and in conversation, that whole second year being together. But I think all that exhaustion really caught up with me when you validated my feelings of him gaslighting my feelings. I remember seeing a trail back to all the times he had.
But realizing how I went wrong in the relationship and moments I didnāt express myself the best wayā¦ ever since his text that I donāt know what love isā¦ I interpreted that as him saying he would have stuck by me through anything but I gave up on him. And I feel a lot of guilt over that and it has made me really question myself. Question if I did try my best and make me worry that if I could go back I would have given him more of a chance to get better. Iāve had vivid dreams, bad sleep and high anxiety the past week or more over this. Recently When I see the parents I nanny for argue, I wonder ādid I give up over an argument that I will just have again in another relationship?ā That reminds me of his good qualities and the things I āgave up.ā The good parts of him I broke up with that now I will just want in another relationship. I have been in a thought loop of this anxiety and I think the dreams are because of that.
I feel bad for having these thoughts on top of having them. I feel badly and I wonder if I should reach out to talk, but he said he doesnāt want to waste more energy on me. I canāt tell if this is my third eye being closed or if it is a new realization of it. It is very painful for me to think that if only I had given him the opportunity for a full conversation, rather than ending it so quickly out of fear that he would gaslight and confuse me, that maybe it would have worked out. I just wish I had the confidence in my strength to hold my own if he did try, but maybe the previous dinner when he excused himself from everything by saying he doesnāt know how he comes across, maybe that was him attempting to understand himself and I gave up before he was able to try and make a change. Two nights prior to the breakup was the first time I brought up the term gaslighting, and although Iād tried to explain it prior maybe that time he would have understood.
But then I think about how he didnāt put much effort into talking me out of breaking up he pretty much just left, but I think it may be unfair to expect someone to argue when you say it is what you want.
I think all of these thoughts have been stuck in my head since texting him about my things and they are just now coming out. I feel icky and afraid I made a mistake. But maybe this is all just the sacral (child) acting out because of how much I miss his physical presence. I hope I didnāt make a huge mistake and that he is the āone that got awayā as I feared he would be, the fear that kept me in the relationship the last year I struggled and did my best to communicate. What if I stuck with itā¦ this thought is eating me on the inside and I either need to reach out to him and see if he will hear me out; or I need to squash this potential regret somehow.
I apologize for the word vomit, these have been my thoughts Iāve been fighting but now that they are so clear and even convincing, I am afraid of them and donāt know what to do with them.
Anxious Seaturtle
March 4, 2024 at 1:32 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428359seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I am on my lunch break and wanted to respond, to my journal entry yesterday, from my phone so I apologize for any formatting errors.
Your summary is correct.
You wrote: āLooking (again) at the title of your thread, looks like gut is synonymous to your confident, in-motion state of mind, and fear is synonymous with your off/ stagnant state of mind. The guts is fine with not having N in your life, fear wants him backā
I hope this is true because I hope any feelings for wanting N back, or feelings of regret are wrong because I donāt want to regret it. I think part of that regret can happen when I realize things in the relationship I could have done better, which inevitably make me wonder if that would have made a difference. But I try to allow myself to conclude that I did my best in that time.
Last night I had very vivid dreams and although I woke up missing N intensely, the dreams clarified to me what I was missing. In my dream it didnāt involve any brain stimulation (crown chakra) it didnāt involve any intimacy (heart chakra) the dream was 90% some sort of extreme sacral craving I seemed to be chasing. It was only pleasure that I was seeking. This morning in a limited time I had online I tried to seek ways to align my sacral chakra in a healthy way that doesnāt involve other people because I donāt think I am ready for that. Or maybe that would change if it was a good person but Iāve yet to meet anyone Iād even desire that type of connection with. The dream brought me some clarity that perhaps working out intensely is an outlet for those sacral chakra desires. Also how stark it must be to my body and mentality that I was in a relationship for 2 years of consistent physical intimacy, always available. I think it is the stark difference, more so than the amount of time it has been since physical intimacy because I have gone years without it in my adult life and have not had dreams like I had last night that I woke up feeling like it actually happened. I have only had a handful of dreams that I recall years later, and that dream was so vivid and creative that it will be added to that small list.
I am wondering your thoughts on what it can do to you mentally and physically to get used to physical intimacy, instant gratification to the sacral chakra, to suddenly none. It makes sense itās some sort of withdrawal symptom but I want to discover why so that I can find another outlet that is not intense workouts for the next few weeks. I am also curious if you have any insight on dreams and what makes vivid dreams that make you feel things. Even the other night in my dreams a tiger bit me and I could feel it to an extent.
Seaturtle
March 3, 2024 at 6:25 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428336seaturtleParticipantPs, donāt worry about the volume of your messages, when I sit to reply I am never wishing there was less on your end (:
March 3, 2024 at 6:24 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428335seaturtleParticipantHello Anita,
I havenāt formed complete responses yet and am still letting it sit until I feel them come to me. Instead I felt like coming here for a little journal entry.
It is amazing the range of emotions I am capable of. I think it is easier to regulate them when I can consistently work out, like a true workout to sweat, but what is so inconvenient right now is with my surgery recovery the most I can do is walk a couple miles. Which I had been doing at least every other day, but I am craving a good sweat. I am also craving getting physically fit right now, I am healthy and on the outside look for but I can feel thereās so much room for improvement and it would feel amazing in this time of my confidence for strength being challenged, challenged by me.
My range of emotions look like this. Some weeks I feel in motion with my life, it flows and I am confident in my decisions and that my future will reveal that to me. I heard from a commencement speech by Steve Jobs that, you canāt look into your future to connect the dots about whatās going on but you can look back to make sense of where you are. So Iām these more stable āin-motionā weeks I am confident that when I look back in the future, the dots will make sense and I will be proud of my process.
Then there are the off weeks, like this past week. Where I have the same belief as above, but instead of the confidence that, in my future I will look back Ā and be proud of my process, instead I worry that I will look back and have regret.
This back and forth happens and is centered around my confidence versus lack of confidence, that I called it quits with N.
The past week, including today I have been in the less confident state. And on my walk today found myself comforted by the idea that maybe someday I will be with N again, but given that he do some work on himself AND have some realization that I have qualities he wants. Qualities beyond what he recognized about me before.
I think the reasons I am craving exercise right now is because it is a way that, in the past with sports and going to the gym in college, itās always got me to, or kept me in more of a confident āin-motionā state.
I hope you had a good weekend,
Seaturtle
March 2, 2024 at 6:05 am in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428312seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
I just read your replies and will further respond through the weekend. With my retroactive awareness I wondered if I read first and let it sit in my mind, if my third eye will have a deeper understanding, or maybe a better way to say it: my third eye and crown will have more time to communicate about it first.
āwe both clearly have a similar desire to be better every dayā- yes, indeed.. weāre bot the beesā knees!
– yesterday I went to a brewery with my roommate and as I looked over the cider menu there was one called āthe bees kneesā!! Can you believe that haha after I told you it was losing relevance, I guess Seaturtle was floating under a rock. I ordered the cider just because of the name and so I could tell you!
happy Saturday
Seaturtle
February 28, 2024 at 12:45 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428233seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“But I was too afraid to be authentic around others most of the time because my mother so effectively shamed my authenticity. I was so out of practice,Ā didnāt even know how. I wasnāt ableā
- I think the same thing happened to me. My dad effectively shamed my authenticity. āI was so out of practiceā I feel this. I recall the feeling of questioning my own authenticity, and wondering how I should be. I did this in highschool and it made me feel insecure because others seemed to be someone they wanted to be (likely an illusion in itself) and I was questioning my every move. Overthinking my own authenticity made me feel awkward. Wow this is a realization/ memory for me. I felt awkward in my body, and hyper aware of what I was doing, how I was standing or how to have conversation with certain people, how to be me. However there were a few people I felt more natural with, and I started to only spend my time with those people and didnāt have a desire to be around people that I didnāt feel I could be myself around. I labeled myself and introvert because of this.
Re-reading your first post:
āNarcissism exists on a continuum that ranges from normal to abnormal personality expressions”
- This is interesting because as mentioned above, having a parent who shamed your authenticity led us to question what our authenticity was. Creating this desire to understand ourselves. It would make sense that with that awareness I question how I come across, how I am being, and in my relationship with NĀ I could see myself making selfish decisions
Seaturtle
February 28, 2024 at 12:45 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428232seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
āas the week went on you became aware of a part of your motivation a few days beforeā
- yes, I wonder if I can speed up this awareness. āRetroactive awarenessā
āhe wasnāt able to give you more, and you werenāt able to stop wanting more.ā
- wow this should be the quote of our relationship
“he wasnāt able to regard the things you told him in the ways you wanted him to. He fought for your love in the ways he was able.”
- why wasnāt he able to? I guess it is just his limitations due to how he grew up.
āweāre all on the spectrum/ continuum of each and every personality disorder, even when we donāt fit a diagnosis.ā
- this feels true to me, but I also think some people stay more still than others. That is that some people have a wider ranger of emotions than others, while others are stuck to one end/polar opposite. And unfortunately in our society the emotionless side of the spectrum, is more acceptable and even desired. Desired by people like F and N, they are proud of the Teflon.
“During all the years that I fit the BPD diagnosis, I very much cared about being authentic, I very much wanted to be authentic, it was very, very important to me. But I was too afraid to be authentic around others most of the time because my so effectively shamed my authenticity. I was so out of practice,Ā didnāt even know how. I wasnāt able.”
- I relate to it being important to me right now. You were afraid to be authentic ābecause my so effectively shamed my authenticity,ā can you explain this sentence more, what do you mean by āsoā?
“The book you mentioned recently that you want to write, must be titled USEEN.”
- wow I really like this!!
“Unseen and Alone are synonymous.”
- interesting
“N awakened your desire to be seen”
- wow this is poetic, yes.
- Why did N awaken this in me?
- Edit: I typed this whole post last night but wanted to reas it fresh in the morning to make sure it still aligned with my morning fresh third eye. I will make it known when I am adding something new this morning like right now. I woke up and went on a couple mile walk this morning, recognizing new beauty around me. I woke up feeling angry unfortunately, it went from peaceful wake up, to suddenly realizing I needed to mourn my lost snow gear. I know they are superficial things, but man was it hard to find shoes that fit just right and a snowboard I actually liked the look of, even my goggles and jacket, they all took me a few years to collect. Angry he really just isnāt giving me my things back. I knew I didnāt want my day to be that way so I went on a walk and listened to the Harvard commencement speech by Steve Jobs, and I took from it the beauty in new beginnings. I recognize that two years with N, feels like a lot of time and what was the point? One major point is this, recognizing my need to be seen by a significant other, before N I didnāt realize I wanted that, or what it even meant to me.
“it is amazing to me how much work it takes to SEE certain other people, like me trying to see you.”
- this is an interesting observation. It makes me want to try to SEE somebody else.. maybe you?
- Edit: I wonder if everyone is complex or others are more simple, I suspect this is true but wouldnāt it be a superiority complex to claim that I am more complex than some others?
“this particular seeing occurred to me a day or two ago, as in a passing thought), that it is N, in his stark Unseeing of you, who triggered your overcompensating, narcissistic like reaction.”
- wow so when I feel unseen I lean more narcissistic on the spectrum. And dating N made me recognize I was overcompensating for something, and it was that I felt unseen. Thatās a lot to take in. Why did it take him to trigger that?
- Edit: āwhen I feel unseen I lean more narcissistic on the spectrum.ā Today as I read this sentence I understand it more. Maybe (but leaving room for adjustment due to my retroactive awareness) if I feel seen, I am so driven to see the other person back. In general I want to make people feel seen, but in a relationship I feel it is a little different. In a relationship you spend so much time together you will inevitably see more than others do, well hopefully. So in a relationship if I feel they are ācontinuingā to see me, then I return this, energized by them seeing me, I put that energy back towards them. But, like with N, if they stop giving me their energy of trying to see me, I donāt have the spare energy to see them anymore, instead I must see myself, and this is where the narcissistic behaviors can enter. Slowly, my priority narrows down to only myself, and their feelings become less important, just as during the breakup I had to prioritize my feelings and end things ācoldlyā and I had to disregard his feelings. Of course I am human and canāt completely do this, canāt completely disregard his feelings but I can just enough so that mine win.
“ā and I am open to having been wrong in some of my assessments of you. And of him.”
- I guess if we werenāt open to these things weād be stunting ourselves and we both clearly have a similar desire to be better every day.
“I think, at this point (and I may be wrong), that he cared for you as much as he was ABLE to care for you.”
- that is the same sense I was getting. That heād reached his max of how much he was able to care for me and I was very unsatisfied with that, and as hard as he was to give up, i insinctually knew that there was better out there. But at the same time accepting that if there wasnāt better then Iād still rather be single than with him.
- A major realization for me to end things was asking myself āif the world ended and you had to spend the rest of your days in a room with this person, would you choose them to be your one person there?ā And my answer was no. I couldnāt see us, just two souls, vibing together. Iād rather be with my little sister than him for the rest of time, and shouldnāt the answer to that be your one lifetime partner that you are choosing?
- Iām so curious about your partner and the type of relationship you have
- Edit: this is powerful here, āIād rather be single than with him.ā Powerful and true, although the transition from relationship to single is very hard.
“I feel empathy for you for needing what you needed from N, and empathy for him for not being able to deliver.”
- I feel empathy for him not being able to deliver too. I was rooting for him. But he reached his max of how much he could care for me. As I wanted him to be my person, I also wanted to be his. Even now I find myself sad that I couldnāt be what he needed. I worry that he feels like āpeople always leaveā and that I contributed to that fear. heās the youngest so he watched all of his siblings leave, then his dad leaves him alone as a kid for a random amount of time, and his mom leaves him emotionally. I feel guilty that I couldnāt be the love he needed in his life.
- But I know that I could of been what he needed, but the problem is i had more to give than what he needed. I had so much love to give and I donāt think he cared much for those things I did for him.
- Edit: I hope to find someone who sees all the love that I am directing towards them, and that i can see their love as well. Which I believe I will see their love, I know I have that ability but I also think thereās some compatibility of some sort that enters the equation. By Compatibility, I am not sure if it has to do with personality or just an equal desire to be your best selves.
“no, itās me who knew less about you than I thought I did. Sincerely, it takes so much work, and humility, and persistence, and putting aside my persona biases, experiences, etc., to get to know a person as .. complex as you”
- one day I wanna hear more about what it was like to do what you are doing. I thank you, because I need this, someone who cares to see me as much as they can. And you are that person right now (heart emoji, and leaf emoji because this feels very natural).
- ācomplex.ā I am thinking about this word right now, how did I get this way and is everyone on the planet on a spectrum from a simple to complex?
“what I am in touch with this evening, is how difficult it is, has been for me,Ā to SEE you as you are.”
- You know what, at least a silver lining of being āunseenā is that I am familiar enough with the feeling that I just donāt expect people to see me. Iāve accepted there are places in my head I will always be alone, but Iāve also learned that some people see you better than others. I feel more seen by my roommate than I did by N.
- Edit: I feel more seen by you than N, to an extreme degree.
“Itās mostly the personal biases, the personal childhood experiences that create oneās vision of another.”
- so you can still see your childhood affecting who you are now?
- Edit: Its amazing how many people there are in the world with their own bias of everything. I wonder what the world reads like, or what people really look like from zero bias. Maybe it is very boring and bland, or maybe it is blissful. No pain but no joy.
“Leave the toilet seat up every day, and be late as long aā¦ you do see meā- a real lifetime partner is possible for you to find and have a lifetime with.”
- this is a meaningful two sentences. (Feeling good and hopeful inside emoji)
“Give him time though.. the task of seeing a complex, fascinating person like you is not easy, says I.”
- haha yes I can do this (: you know what though with N, I got to a point where I couldnāt see him seeing any more of my complexities. Wanting to or seeing the value in it. I am still thinking back to that sentence you paraphrased āLeave the toilet seat up every day, and be late as long aā¦ you do see me.ā I donāt think it was the small things that pushed me away, it was pretty deep.
“most people would have disappeared from their forum after told certain things, after told certain things that were the wrong understandings, but you are back here, remarkable, I am humbled.”
- I have been called out and feel it was untrue many times in my life, hence being unseen most of it. However with you many things you notice about me feel true and are helping me understand myself faster.
- Edit: And if they donāt feel true, I still can understand how you concluded what you did, which challenges me to really ask myself if itās true for myself. If I feel humbled it is usually true. But if I feel unseen, it sends me to more thoughts trying to figure out why.
“love takes a lot of work when it comes to a complex person such as you, a Seaturtle with an open third eye and an active crown chakra. It takes me opening mine and activating my crown chakra to understand.”
- if I 100% believe my person is out there for this lifetime then I wonder what theyāre doing right now and when I will hear about it (;
“add distilled water to your tears, so that your sea turtleās tears donāt irritate your human eyes.”
- i literally have distilled water here because I used it for my diffusers for a while so I will do this now hahaha
“In case you cry or laugh too hard.”
- youāre funny (laugh crying emoji)
-You know what, I know you said you donāt watch a lot of tv, and I still wonder how. But have you ever watched like standup comedy on Netflix? Those got me through quarantine times. I literally knew I was lacking serotonin and literally watched standup on purpose to laugh, so my brain would perk up.
Edit: I like how certain comedians, like John Mulaney and Taylor Tomlinson, to name a couple, point out real human flaws and question what is going on here on this earth. They reveal human complexities and do it in a relatable and funny way.
Seaturtle
February 27, 2024 at 1:58 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428204seaturtleParticipant– itās the sea turtle tears, more sea salt in its tearsā¦ Seaturtle is turning into a real-life sea turtleā¦
hahaha
February 27, 2024 at 1:56 pm in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #428203seaturtleParticipantDear Anita,
“I am saying all this not because I think that you fit the NPD (I really donāt know), or any personality disorder, but just in case you do- just in case you get diagnosed as such by a professional sometimes in the future- I want you to be open to the possibility, for therapeutic purposes.”
- I do appreciate you bringing this up, it makes me curious, but admittedly makes me fearful that I have more issues that I am unaware of. I have wondered if I have a personality disorder before, but just believe that I feel very in control of what I do and say, and I also stand by most of what I say and do. I feel like I stay aware enough, literally with the intention of staying aligned with who I believe I am, and I wonder, are people with those disorders capable of being authentic?
“-your desire to be positively/ admiringly seen as an individualĀ apart from others in a romantic relationship and otherwise is intense.”
It is true, I have an overcompensating impulse to be seen by others and recognized as an individual. I was so unseen growing up, by my dad, but then also in highschool. During early highschool, or even middle school I don’t remember having this intense desire to be seen for my individuality, it developed and became more intense later in highschool, my soccer team literally ignored me in highschool. I told you before, but a recap, they thought I told the principal that they hazed the new freshmen and sophomores (me). When I actually didn’t, the hazing made me nauseous so I went home but I didn’t tell anyone, it was another girl who kept it a secret, the seniors and juniors were suspended from the first 6 games of the season and blaming me, they ignored me at practice for 2 years. That bullying had a huge impact, for one I didn’t know why they were ignoring me, I didn’t find out till my senior year that they thought I did anything. I just thought they didn’t like who I was, so I made an attempt to be as small as possible. Stopped talking, since I’d only be ignored, stopped asking for the ball, stopped basically playing soccer (my first love) and overall just wanted to be like everyone else and didn’t want to be myself, since that clearly was not accepted. I left highschool early to finish my degree and begin college courses, simultaneously, almost completely isolated from highschoolers, and anyone on my soccer team outside of practice and games. Just trying to blend in. Then I went to Argentina and that whole trip made me realize how strong I was, after the impact I took there as well. That is where I had my first out of body, “who am I and why am I here?” literally asking God. Again I felt so alone there, only English speaker aside from 3 translators, I learned spanish and made good friends there but the environment and activities they made us do were very challenging. Not to mention socially, the two translator girls treated me differently then they treated the spanish speakers, spoke to me like I was stupid and also ignored my requests, saying to go with the flow, yet I didn’t know the flow because instructions were told to us in Spanish, any ounce of control I had was taken from me, I was just told what to do and out of my obedient character I just did what I was told not matter how uncomfortable it made me. Unseen.
That was the first time I ever felt I heard God’s voice. I felt so unseen, so misunderstood, and so judged. And I was, I can elaborate on several stories, crying as I called my parents, crying to the sky, that trip was intense. I had nightmares that shadows pinned me to the ground and covered my mouth, taking every possible way to express myself away from me. It was those last 4 weeks of the trip (5 months total) that I literally felt like there must be a God or else I was completely alone, so I talked to the sky and I am telling you, I went from the most afraid, lonely and misunderstood place I have ever been and when I spoke to the sky I suddenly felt hugged, I felt this overwhelming sense of light, comfort and a soundless voice in my head said “It will be ok, I am not alone.” Ever since that moment, I have believed in God, but not in a religious way. I can go on about why not as well but I would be writing a book on here soon hahaha.
All this to say, yes, my craving to be seen is very intense, and I know it is an over compensation, and potency of the craving changes/fluctuates. But In my relationship with N, I was aware that he was not responsible for making me feel THAT seen. Honestly I feel like his lack of seeing me, in a strange way, was attractive to me because of how comforting it was, felt like home.
“ā Part of you suspects that these expectations are ridiculous, but this part is not sure (hence the question,Ā right?). Objectively, yes, it is ridiculous to think that N not always putting the toilet seat down means that he doesnāt think about you at all. “
I had to decide for myself what was ridiculous and what wasn’t. The toilet seat bothered me when I would fall into the toilet at night, and even after I told him that happened he didn’t seem to put much effort there, but I got over that one realizing he just forgets like all humans do. But it really bothered me once he came to my apartment and used my roommates bathroom, came out and said “oh wait forgot something” and went and put HER toilet seat down… he was being more considerate to her than me. Also the being late, he was 45 min late to breakfast with my mom and I, when she visited me. 45 min, that is ridiculous of him, but I was so understanding, I really tried my best to stay aware of the difference between too high of expectations, and reasonable standards.
“ā this is how I understand this: as a child (not only as a teenager, but before), you felt so ALONE, a stranger in your home, living with strangers, disconnected, a very distressing and reoccurring feeling. Your mother took that feeling away from you when sheĀ coddled andĀ overprotected you (words you used someplace in your thread to describe her behavior toward you). She took that feeling away when she did whatever you wanted. Fast forward, you re-experienced the same childhood ALONE/ estranged feeling with N, and you needed him to take this feeling away from you by doing the same as your mother did: everything you want.”
- I am not saying this is not true but I don’t recall feeling that way, at home. Also that feeling of estrangement doesn’t happen with my other friends, currently I am not able to associate this disconnect with anyone else but N. My other friends, yes I have felt disconnected before, but when I bring it up like “why is it weird right now” they are aware enough to agree and be like idk it is weird tho. When I feel disconnected, my impulse is to just be super honest, to meet at some sort of baseline with the person, and I find that inauthentic people are unable to meet you there, and I don’t think N was very authentic for many reasons. He was not able to have very raw conversations, something I find only two authentic people can have together. He could when we were on vacation sometimes, or out in nature for a couple days, but otherwise he was far away from that raw place that if I tried to be real with him he just blank stared me.
“but you have turned into your father in this way. You took normal behaviors, like a guy not putting the toilet seat down,Ā as evidence of him not caring for you.”
This is either hard for me to face, or not accurate to me. I was aware, in the moment, that those two things don’t correlate. I could see that assumption trying to come together in my head and I reasoned it out, that is extreme, I would tell myself and move on. That is why a relationship with someone who did not care enough lasted so long, I feel like I may have disregarded too many things out of trying to avoid making correlations that weren’t true, and that is what was the cause of such a tormenting last year. As I came to you here in September, I thought it was all my fault and I was making incorrect correlations, but clearly he was being passive aggressive, so many times I told myself “no, he was probably joking, and I am making assumptions of him not caring about me when it is not true,” just as a victim of gaslighting says to herself. I am open to being wrong about this assessment, but it is just how I feel, and evidence is that I stayed with him that whole last year trying to make myself see that he cared, when I just don’t think he actually cared that much and instead knew how to act like he did.
”Ā Fast forward, you re-experienced the same childhood ALONE/ estranged feeling with N, and you needed him to take this feeling away from you by doing the same as your mother did: everything you want.”
I just don’t think this accidentally happens, that I would think I deserve everything I want, without even knowing it, especially knowing that I did not deserve everything I wanted like a spoiled little girl. I would not want someone to do everything I wanted, that would be such a fake relationship, I witnessed my grandma doing this for my mom and I thought it was gross. I did not/ and do not want to be this way so badly that I don’t think it happened without me knowing it, and if it did I know less about myself then I thought I did.
“ā You are someone ALONE (a dark room) who needs to be seen as worthy of connection/ worthy of not being alone (turning on a light). Problem is that you associate the light with everything you want being done by the one who supposedly loves you.. because thatās the kind of love you experienced as a child.”
But I don’t want the love I received as a child, my moms over coddling makes me uncomfortable and my dads lack of it also makes me uncomfortable.Ā I am alone in a dark room, and something I learned through speaking with you is it is Seaturtle’s job to turn on that light so hatch can see herself. I associate light with seeing that I am an authentic person, a strong and witty/creative person (as my dad said I wasn’t), seen by myself and hopefully by my one life partner, the one person in the world that admires me for me. I just feel like N did not see me very deeply, he saw a square and fell in love with the square and moved on with his life, rather than see I am actually a pantagon, he missed a whole side but he was ok with that and I wasn’t. I just believe my real lifetime partner will see those things, I don’t want them to do everything I want. Infact, if someone sees who I am, I would likely stay with them through them doing many things I don’t like, because of how hard it was to find a man who saw me. Leave the toilet seat up every day, and be late as long as when you do see me, you laugh with me and we find similar things cool and see eachothers taste and respect eacohthers perspectives and goals.
“ā YourĀ internal tormentĀ is the ALONE, disconnected emotional experience of childhood. An experience you tried to change as a teenager, when living with your father, by hyper vigilantly fulfilling his unrealistic expectations from you. You tried to connect with him in this way, it was the expression of your loveĀ for him..Ā to do all that he wanted.”
Exactly
“He was in a difficult situation with you, wanting to please you on one hand (this is his brand of love: people pleasing, seems to me), passive-aggressively rebelling, on the other, responding to .. your unrealistic expectations in ways that were not emotionally honest. “
Yes exactly. I am sure some of my expectations were unrealistic, but I was open to being told that, when he explained to me that him talking with his roommate after dark, while I slept alone was too much to ask for, I stopped asking for it. I spoke to you, and I took my stuffed animal and pretended it was hatch, saying everything was ok, he loves me and this was not about me at all, I loved me too and that is all that mattered, and I went to sleep. My expectations were unrealistic for him. Expecting him to express why he was passive aggressive, was my expectation but he was incapable.
“overall, did not bring out the best in each other.”
Agreed. I literally told him this two nights before the breakup, at that dinner that I almost ended things but after asking to leave the restaurant, as he typically liked to “move” when in a confrontational conversation. In the car he says he has been told by his other friends that he doesn’t know how he comes across, and my empathy kicked in, I felt bad for him and said it was ok. Next day realized he literally didn’t take ownership still.
“If only the two of you- separately- could redefine LOVE:Ā what is love?, as the song saysā¦?”
Exactly, I feel this way. When I texted him part of me wanted to hear from someone who was willing to do this, but that was wishful thinking. I would be. I have had the song “I wanna know what love iss…”; haha
Seaturtle
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