Dear Anita,

That is so funny that I thought it was a legitimate term hahaha, hatchling is perfect 🙂

Your insight on uniting hatchling and seaturtle is very helpful and will be in my thoughts.

“– I assume (and correct me if I am wrong) that you don’t always feel seen by others and that when you don’t feel seen by them it doesn’t trigger/ distress you enough to notice or overthink it, but when you feel unseen by N, it triggers/ distresses you a lot because it awakens Hatch’s hurt and anger. Hatch is trying to resolve her UNSEEN experience through N, so she’s very sensitive to what he says, what he does..”

You hit on something there. Yesterday morning, after reading the posts on this forum, I attempted a conversation with hatch. I told her I wanted to hear her, to come forward and I would not turn her away. She showed up last night. I am acting in a Play right now, a Shakespeare, it is my first time acting on a stage with other talented actors and people having to pay to come see it. I have taken classes and improv, but this is different. I have been nervous but just reminding myself it is fun and nothing to actually fear. Last night I felt more self conscious than usual, I was hyper aware of what I was saying and how it was being perceived, hatch was desperate to feel accepted by the group I am working with, but I did not get any obvious cues, I walked away insecure about what I said. I found myself in a deep dive into different forums last night to understand why I felt this way. My rabbit trail led me to something that felt very true, that I don’t know how receive love and appreciation from others.. when complimented I feel I owe them something back and respond by downplaying myself. I often assume people think I am awkward. I thought the answer to all this was to ignore it, but now I think maybe I have just been ignoring hatch? I read about how important a parents consistent love is to our self esteem, and feel my hatchling was insecure about love and somehow taught herself to be defensive against love, like by body repels it and in that process doesn’t even allow me to see it. I think this is why I have said I need words of affirmations from my partner…because I cannot see/receive it! all of this has been on my mind all morning and redirected my focus. I wondered if I should start another forum but I wanted your advice.

By allowing hatchling to surface, is it typical for insecurities to arise? I truly thought they were solved but maybe I was just ignoring hatchling and the real solution is to actually unlearn my body’s learned response to love and learn to see how others do care about me? I often feel my friends don’t care about me and do things without considering me .. and this is all being directed at N! what do you think about this?

I will look into ‘healing your inner child’ books. Do most people just walk around with their inner child in a tamed cage? I assume most people do not think this much, but maybe I am giving myself too much credit.

” The goal is not to raise Hatch, as in to no longer have an inner-child, but to get along with her, to give her the empathetic attention that she needs.”

Will hatchling always be in a naïve insecure state? or can she be a mature (inner) child ..

“Hatch is afraid to direct anger at her father, afraid of his anger in return, afraid of what (in her mind) this big, powerful man will do to her when angry. She wants to please him, so that he’d be nice to her.”

Interesting. I want to begin the journey of strengthening her.

“The adult part of you needs to communicate to her that you (this big-enough, powerful-enough young woman) can handle her father’s anger, that you can and will protect her.”

I love this.

“a parent’s repeated uncontrolled anger- even it is expressed in facial features and tone of voice alone- is enough to traumatize a child.”

Wow. I definitely underestimated what could be traumatizing. It reminded me of some of my dads very immature and mean facial expressions .. my sister and brother received it worse and I feel for them right now.

“– Focus on increasing the volume level of Hatch’s Voice: hear her words, listen to her; take her side no matter what, no matter if N or your father agree or disagree. If the price for you (the adult part) to  pay for getting close to .. you (the child part) is distancing yourself from N.. then it will be a price worth paying.”

I have felt, in the last year, that I had an inner voice screaming at me in many moments living with N and that roommate. It is for hatch that I moved out. But it took her being in a lot of pain for me to take action .. One of my reasons to move out, and I told N, “I feel there is a voice telling me to move out, and has been for a while now, but I have been ignoring it, I feel I need to move out to see if this voice is my ‘gut’ or maybe I will recognize after it was just ‘fear.’ ” Thank you Anita, you have lead me to the answer I was seeking when creating this forum 🙂 (alongside Helcat of course!) Although I have work to do I feel like I just saw through a huge wall I felt was blocking me. I am eternally grateful to you! and myself!

With love,

Seaturtle and hatchling

Anita,

Another thought came to my mind. I was proud of myself for “forgiving” both of my parents, was this infact not forgiveness and just telling Hatch to be quiet? one of the reasons I wanted to choose this “forgiveness” is because I did not want to hold a grudge on my parents, I wanted to love them and feel loved by them. Will directing this anger back to my dad make me resentful and harden my heart? I wonder the difference between parents just being human and then seriously messing up enough to deserve their child turning their back on them. My partner has told me he admires how I forgive my parents and can have a friendship with them after all that has been done. He doesn’t understand why his sister of 32 years old won’t speak to her parents at all. She tells N they traumatized her in more ways than one but when N relays the information to me he doesn’t understand why she chooses to do this. I think I now understand her more. But fear it will distance me from N because I think his hatchling is purposely kept at 5% volume level. and I think he is proud of it, as I was when I was able to actually enjoy my dad and “forgive.”

I know this is alot, and I hope I am not overwhelming you? I am having some very real revelations within myself through this and am so excited to reach this new level of awareness I feel I have been waiting for for the past year!

Sending appreciation,

Seaturtle

Anita,

I apologize, I got confused with the pages and seems I responded to your second message first. I am reading the first one now

Dear Helcat,

“I think that as time went on and we worked on things, I was more able to differentiate between the past and the present. I ended up feeling less and less the need for him to apologize to help soothe my anxiety because it became very clear to me that it was less to do with him and his behaviour and more to do with my past.”

This is very relatable for me. I do feel bad though that it took me a while to become clear to me, I feel I caused alot of arguments because I would blame him. I moved out only 3 weeks ago and I already feel like I can see the cycle so much clearer, and like you said I have less a need for an apology. I am glad you mentioned this because it reminds me I am growing a lot right now and explains my very real mental exhaustion.

“Regarding passive aggressive jokes, would be you like to share an example?”

When I lived with my partner and my triggers were being pushed at a faster rate than I could heal, I was exhausted all the time. It lead me to calling out of work a lot, I would spend my actual time off with my partner, then I would call out when he wasn’t home so I could have some alone time. I was too exhausted to go into a customer service job most days, my paycheck decreased significantly and eventually I was fired, but it was almost like I wanted to be cause I was only relieved. My partner then began to pay the rent fully and I was home painting, I had unemployment so I just bought groceries and contributed where I could, He said that it was fine over and over but I don’t think he knew how it truly made him feel. We were on the couch one night, a couple weeks before I moved out and he was online trying to buy a trailor for his work supplies, but couldn’t afford it and joked “Can you help me buy a trailor?” The night before he literally saw my bank account in the negatives, so for me this was a very insensitive thing to “joke” about, and it did not seem like a joke he said it with a very straight face but when I asked him about it the next morning I felt completely gaslit when he said “what? you thought that was serious? of course not baby! it was just a joke”… did not sit right with me.

“I wonder, did your father suffer from depression at all?”

Yes I believe so. He worked mon-fri 8am-5pm, hit traffic on the way home which frustrated him, I think he felt a lot of pressure, I feel for him. He was a Junior in college with a baseball career ahead of him, but then they had me, two years later my brother, 2 years one sister then another. To me I think it was SO irresponsible, but what’s done is done now your baseball career has no time to accumulate, you have to start working immediately, his while life was flipped and he was numb. He told me once recently that he remembers not being present when he would play with us when he got home, he said “you guys didn’t notice but…” and I thought…Oh yes we did. He just never seemed very happy. the last couple years of their marriage I was 13-15 and he would stay downstairs at night and watch tv with headphones on a laptop while my mom went up to bed to probably text cheat with some guy. So sad, their dynamic breaks my heart and is a relationship I fear to fall into.

“I’m glad to hear that your relationship with your father has since improved. Sometimes I find that can create a disconnect or confusion about how was see them. At other times, having trauma invalidated by our abusers can create a sense of confusion and denial about our experiences in ourselves. Do you think you experienced any of this at all?”

Yes. When I was 17 and still very naive in articulating my feelings or even recognizing them I tried to express to him that he came across as two people to me. One that was cold, I wanted to rebel against and didn’t care if I hurt him by lying about my wherabouts. Then there was another version of him that was kind, sweet and funny, and when I met that version i felt awful for what I had done to the other version of him. I would doubt that he had any faults, but then the other version would surely return and it was quite confusing, I saw the switch so many times thought that now I am able to stay level minded when he is one or the other, thinking “this is not all of him right now.” I deny my own trauma even now, I don’t believe it was as bad as I think it was…I see people growing in way worse situations then me and think I was blessed, but then I self destruct in my relationship and have crippling anxiety and start to believe I did actually go through something difficult then to reflect this.

“And sometimes the negative thoughts during a trigger are very strong. There are times when this “leaks” and can be harmful to your partner.”

This is validating, thank you. I am getting better, but sometimes I see those intense negative thoughts and they make me feel disconnected to him because I cannot share them. Because now I know they are only temporary, and like you said I do not wish to ever hurt him.

“Have you ever had a discussion about him invalidating your trauma and how that makes you feel?”

Yes, but only recently and he took it very well and I felt he saw what I was saying. some triggers he understands more than others.

“Since I’ve come to understand the large impact my PTSD has on communication during disagreements in the relationship. It’s really helped me to accept him and forgive his very human mistakes when they occur and to let go of that resentment.”

Thank you for sharing about your relationship, it helps me to not feel alone and I appreciate it so much. I found that when I started to realize I was acting out of pain, I was able to see others were and this is actually what mended my relationship with one of my sisters, and I was so thankful that I was introduced to the person behind the pain once we broke that barrier. I wish for my partner to come to this realization because I do think it would help things go smoother, but I also don’t want my triggers to be comforted so maybe it is a good thing he doesn’t know how to talk to people with ptsd yet…just a thought, what do you think?

That is so interesting that you lived through having another roommate with your partner as well! I don’t know anyone else who relates to that. When we are children and mentally block things out because they are too much for us to even process, I know that feeling well because it happened late enough in life to where I would literally block out the year before and wonder why my memory was so bad. I lived with them from September 2022-September 2023, so recent, yet I feel a similar sensation of my mind almost trying to erase it emotionally. This feeling of disconnect with it, I can remember it but it feels way farther away than it actually was as if it is fading. I don’t think I was aware of how hard it actually was for me, which lead me to feel disappointed in myself when I would be in pain/anxious/depressed. I don’t fully understand how my partner and I got through it and are still happy together.

Thank you Helcat, for your dedication to responding to my posts, they are helping me immensely in guiding my healing.

Sending love and gentle waves of peace,

Seaturtle

Dear Helcat,

No worries at all, I just wanted to make sure you saw the response to your message 🙂 I am sorry for what you are going through and please use your energy for your family right now and don’t feel pressure to get back here quickly. Take care of yourself and I hope to hear from you when you return,

Sending my best to you,

Seaturtle

Anita,

Ever since I responded a couple hours ago I can’t shake this pit in my stomach of breaking up with my partner. If he will never truly see me then I need to leave. But I can sense the pain of separating and it scares and pains me deeply. He has become by home.

Dear Anita,

“– he may be taking on the role of a therapist with you, as he has dome with his father (based on his words in regard t his father), but he is a bad “therapist” if he refers to your sincere reasoning as excuses. Can you give me 1-2 examples of what you said that he referred to as an excuses? “

Yes, a therapist in a way of I am very open with him and he listens, but he doesn’t give advice really, he’s just a listening ear that may make him feel dumped on when I truly am trying to explain who I am to him. For example, in the tickling scenario I described before that triggered me from being tickled and pinched by older brothers (uncles close in age). It caused me to back away from cuddling as we watched a tv show, and this “withholding of affection” affected him and he expressed that he did not like that, to which I apologized for, then explained why I pulled away and he thought it was an excuse and negated the apology.

There are other examples that aren’t surfacing my memory right now, but the essence of them is that my trigger response hurts him, and I explain why it happened and sometimes he has empathy for me and is understanding, but other times says they are excuses for my behavior. My behavior is withdrawing, this is not easy for me to say but he has called my trigger responses emotionally abusive to him, because if he doesn’t say the right thing to ease my mind I am cold and blame him. When he told me this it made me take a hard look at myself and definitely made me want to understand why my responses were so intense. This was about 4 months ago, I was also under the influence of alcohol, which I learned from that situation I cannot have if triggered because it exaggerates my coldness, blaming and honestly can bring this sassiness out that he does not like. Basically I would feel and tell him exactly what he could have done to prevent my pain (trigger), at the time I didn’t yet realize where this pain was coming from at all,  and I genuinely thought it was his fault. We have talked alot about this and this is also why I wanted to move out so I would stop taking it out on him. It is harder for me to deal with when the same thing happens again, like I tell him something that bothers me like him being late or not communicating with me, but he will continue to obliviously do it and I would get upset with him and ask why he continues to do it and he just didn’t think what he did deserved that response.

“– the dissociated/ removed-from-awareness feelings in regard to your father need to be brought back to awareness, to one extent or another, so to undo the grasp these feelings have on your boyfriend, so to speak.”

Does this involve confronting my father? I still feel those feelings towards my dad sometimes, but only when I re-play what has happened, would journaling (more) about my experiences with my dad help to release them? Often I feel when I talk or think about them it brings me down, but maybe it is helping, because I do still have strong feelings there under the surface if I tap into them.

“Fast forward in the relationship.. it’s still not like he knows who he was- and still is- late for.”

I could see this being true. Sometimes he reminds me of my dad in the way that it will feel like he does know sometimes, but then other times there’s like a wall and he doesn’t actually know anymore. This is when I feel unseen and I get this weird stranger alert in my brain and suddenly feel he is SO far away from me.

“Teflon mindset”

I love this, it is so accurate I have seen this in many people.

“This is the difference between the two of you: you let things in, you let them stick enough to analyze them, so to understand better.”

Yes exactly, and we don’t understand this about eachother. To me, this is what you need to do to grow and learn. I also appreciate feeling things deeply to which he does not understand the point. He accepts this about me, and tells me that he loves how much of a feeler I am, but when its a negative feeling I am lingering on to think about he gets exhausted and will want to move on so quickly. He lets go of things quite fast, and doesn’t care to think about the why, usually. I love our conversations about the “why,” but he is so focused on work and other stress that he is often unable to go there with me mentally.

“TM does not want to understand itself; any opportunity to understand (himself or you)- if it feels distressing to him- will slide off him like oil slides off Teflon.” -Yup, so true, and this is what reminds me of my dad, but N can go in and out of it, but majorly he is Teflon unfortunately and I hold hope that I can help him increase his tolerance to what he repels…

– your father didn’t see you and (not or) your boyfriend doesn’t see you, not beyond the superficial, like you suspect.

-So than am I wasting my time pursuing a romantic relationship with him?

“after me sharing my trigger response after the ticking he asked me ‘why don’t I have triggers like you do, do I have no trauma?’“- he is blaming you for having triggers, stating that he has trauma too, but he has no triggers (being that they slide off, I say), so there is something wrong (faulty, blameworthy) about you, is the message, isn’t it?

– It could be, in that moment I felt sorry for him that he wasn’t in tune enough to recognize his triggers because everyone has them, but his trigger responses, if he has any is to stay silent, so they are very hard for me to detect. Sometimes he is quiet with 0 thoughts, I think this is a male thing? It is hard to tell why he is silent and IF he is bothered.

“this IS the experience of living with a TM.. unless you are equally a TM yourself. and therefore comfortable with unfamiliarity.. having adjusted well to being UNSEEN”

-This hits me hard because OFTEN, growing up with my dad and now with N I feel this need to be more like a TF. He calls his TF behavior “stoicism.” and he does make TF behavior look more relaxing, like he often just tells me to relax, which sometimes I wonder if that is what I need to do, sometimes it is but other times I do want to talk about the why of something.

“in your shoes, hearing this, I would feel guilty about sharing with him anything that would make him feel badly.”

-It does. But since the beginning of our relationship (because, and what keeps me with him) I felt this feeling that he would be in my life for a while, his presence was soothing and he was so kind to everyone, and a hard worker with good intentions, he gives back to the community and people close to him as much as he can, and since I felt he could possibly be my person I dedicated myself to being transparent. I lived by the idea that if I am my truest and most honest self than the people that stick around are true and the ones who leave were not meant for me. I didn’t want something to come as a surprise later on and quite honestly just desperately wanted to be seen by him, and to make sure I was accepted for exactly who I was.

On your last two paragraphs.

I don’t want a TF for myself. If I was a friend to myself I would tell me that I would thrive with a person who was able to see me. But, I love this TF and he is such a close friend to me and honestly I think we help each other learn a lot about each other, hence where I am now. How do I keep this friend and find a non-TF that I so desperately wish to be seen by. Are all men this way, or do I just find them because, as they say, we date our parents… I will say N seems more aware than by dad though, he feels so sorry for my sisters and brother who he can see not being seen by my dad. Perhaps N isn’t all TF? there are moments he sure does seem to see behind peoples action. It is like I want N to be my person so badly, because I love him and he is my home and safe place right now, and he has so many good qualities, none that overcome not seeing me, but he’s just so pure and the dating world out there scares the hell out of me, so much ingenuity. Can a TF learn to me? Or will he always be alone in that disconnected world? Have I wasted all this time of my youth in this relationship? I would hate to permanently lose him.

Seaturtle

I had another thought/question, Since my partners dad emotionally dumped on him and he felt like his therapist, is this how my partner sees me when I am trying to communicate so that he can understand me? Cause it is how I feel sometimes when I try to express to him why I reacted a certain way, what the trauma behind it was, he will call these excuses which just lead to feeling further unseen and invalidated. If this is what is happening, can i help him to see this somehow?