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anita

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  • in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #425573
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    “Something similar did happen the weekend before, right after sex he looked at his phone at the time and clicked out of intimacy mode… It made me feel transactional and abandoned… I told him I knew he loved me and did not mean that but that I was feeling very sad…  So the fact it happened again the very next time we had sex I think played into my response of his phone call within 10 minutes after”-

    – Only part of you knew that he didn’t mean for you to feel transactional and abandoned. The other part of you.. is not so sure, is it? I am quite sure that he didn’t mean it, and I know that he is not at all responsible for you feeling transactional and abandoned. Part of you holds him responsible.

    You know what a huge part a phone plays in people’s lives, people who don’t work or run a business. N running a business that heavily relies on phone calls explains to me why he was on the phone some time after sex.

    I certainly do not want to make N feel this way, how F made me feel” you wrote in regard to N possibly walking on eggshells around you. To stop getting triggered by him, you’d have to take full responsibility for feeling transactional and abandoned, a feeling that dominated a significant part of your growing up years. Way before you met N for the first time.

    it just made me feel suspicious, he went from feeling disconnected into the car to suddenly sweet puppy dog eyes…  what crossed my mind here, that he was being inauthentic”-

    – I wrote the above (about part of you not knowing that he didn’t mean to make you feel badly) before I read the part of you feeling suspicious of him. You’ve been suspicious of him for a long time. No wonder you had such a difficult time when you lived with him.. Living with a Suspect, always on guard..?

    I could certainly be reading to far into things, but a part of who I think I am is that I can read people and whether it is authentic or not“- (1)  Nobody is authentic all of the time.. and no one is exact in what they say to the extent that there are never contradictions in what they say. (2) You are looking for evidence against the Suspect, looking at any possible mismatch between what he says, his facial expressions.. looking for evidence of deceit.

    “This scenario felt that way to me. I am afraid of being told that I read the situation wrong because for some reason it feels like it confuses me on who I am if I cannot correctly read when someone is being inauthentic..”-

    – I don’t think that you read the situation wrong in that indeed at times he is inauthentic, but so am I, and so are you. Actually, it is highly recommended that people will not be authentic when, for example, they feel so angry at their boss, that they want to punch him or her in the face!

    Let’s take a less extreme example: let’s say I was N, watching you in the play, dressed in such a way that part of your chest was showing. Let’s say I felt uncomfortable about other men watching you. I wouldn’t want to be authentic and tell you right there and then about my discomfort because I would ALSO feel that you were having a good time acting, and I wouldn’t want to rain on your parade, so to speak, by criticizing how you were dressed. Then later, the part of me that was not all-the-way okay with it will interject somewhat.

    People are complex.. not much is simple and straightforward all the time. So, part of a conflicted person expresses itself at one time, another part expresses itself at another time.. Not because of deceit but because of complexity.

    “My temptation was to cancel on N, but I decided in the end to have him come over for a certain amount of time and not stay the night, which is what you suggested as well and was best. However, when he got there I was in a good mood, we set up the food and cuddled for a minute first, all was well, then something happened and I journaled about it this morning: ‘Last night N made me feel like F did when I would feel like I was being manipulated“-

    – Here it is: there was deceit on the part of your father (F). You didn’t get that situation wrong. You understood it correctly.

    We were eating at the table and he spilled a glass of wine and it went on the table cloth… I said I felt there was some passive aggression in his response and also just trying to blame me for something? He refused and said ‘you’re just sensitive and I love that you’re sensitive’ this was so incredibly patronizing and felt the same when he was trying to kiss me on Sunday when clearly there was something in the air. My dad would do this, make me feel like I am just too sensitive and feel things that aren’t necessary“-

    – When I read that N said that he loves that you are sensitive, I viewed it positively, as in him expressing that he loves you just the way you are. I didn’t read in what he said any criticism or patronizing.  I think that you accurately understood back then and now who F is. You did not imagine F’s dishonesty, passive-aggression, blaming you, patronizing of you and expressing to you that you are just too sensitive and feeling things that are not necessary/ true.

    As often is the case, we project a difficult parent into a romantic partner, often inaccurately.

    he actually doesn’t think things are really his fault?“- you asked about N. I’ll ask you: F actually doesn’t think things are really his fault, does he?

    he makes me feel crazy for it and that makes me want to run for the hills”- who is “he“, really?

    “To patronize my sensitivity and just try to give me kisses and smiles to make me feel like ‘oh just a cute little girl you are being silly’ that is what the undertone of what he said felt to me. Do you think I am reading this wrong? Because if nothing is wrong and it is all actually just me, that is the familiar feeling F left me with very often, it was always my fault but it was ok and he’d give me a hug“-

    – I know that you did not read ANY of it wrong when it came to your Father. You are re-experiencing your father through N. It feels like it’s about N.. doesn’t it? That’s the nature of (inaccurate) projection, it feels real, it feels accurate.

    The extent and consistency of your projection of F into N makes me think that F is/ has been extremely difficult to live with, while you were growing up.

    he tried to make me feel crazy and over-reading into things but I really don’t think I am“-

    – Your father tried to make you feel crazy and over-reading into things, but I KNOW that you didn’t over-read into F’s words, expressions and behaviors. You perceived him accurately. When the part of you that believes your father (the part that sides with your father’s dishonest manipulations and crazy-making behaviors) sides with the part of you who knows the truth… you will no longer project F into N.

    “I don’t want to get addicted to the most addictive drug, so perhaps I need other ways to feel spiritually connected so I do not crave it for that reason”-

    – Spiritually connect with the truth and disconnect from your father’s untruths. What he told you was NOT true. It was not true that you were too sensitive and imagining things that were not true. No.. it’s your father who gaslit you. Hold him responsible for what he did to you.

    Please take your time with this post and tell me how you feel.

    anita

    in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #425572
    anita
    Participant

    Happy Thanksgiving, Seaturtle and hatch!

    I just finished and about to submit my reply to you, but depending on how you are spending the day, and it being a reply that’s not easy to process, please feel comfortable to postpone reading it to a time that’s right for you!

    anita

    in reply to: Living by my values – causing me internal issues #425571
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Danny:

    Quotes from the book  Chimp Paradox: “The Psychological Mind is made up of three separate brains: Human, Chimp and Computer. You are the Human. Your Chimp is an emotional thinking machine. Your Computer is a storage area and automatic functioning machine”,

    “Managing your impulsive, emotional Chimp as an adult will be one of the biggest factors determining how successful you are in life”,

    “The Chimp does not necessarily work with facts. but it works with what it believes is the truth or with a perception of the truth or, even worse, with a projection of what might be the truth. It is quick to form an impression on little, if any, evidence and usually won’t give way. Of course, some impressions that the Chimp gives us are accurate and helpful, but they can just as easily be wrong. Searching for some accuracy and truth would help us to reach a sensible conclusion”,

    “A golden rule for understanding people and situations is to ALWAYS try to establish THE FACTS before you make your assessment”.

    Now, to your original post, Danny (I will be adding the boldface feature to some of your words):

    “One of my values I have is that: I do my best at all times… I came home today from work and I had an hour to myself. I could have logged on and sent work emails that could be sent, but I didn’t. I read a book. So here, I feel I am not doing my best. I am more doing what I want. Inner critic rises up!”-

    – You prefaced “I am not doing my best” with “I feel“- that’s Your Chimp beingan emotional thinking machine”– it interprets X=Y because it feels that X=Y. It felt that day that your best would’ve been to send work emails. But what if your best was to read the book you read? What if that was the right thing for you to do that day, after work, and the wrong thing to do, was to send work emails..?

    The Chimp, when it is in charge, leads us to lots of distress based on- not evidence and logic- but its impressions and perceptions that are often incorrect. I don’t think that you were guilty for having read a book.

    The Chimp often makes us feel invalid, false guilt: we feel guilty when we are not guilty.

    “Another value I try to live by is: I am honest in my dealings Again, while that is correct 90% of the time, I did tell a few white little lies today for self preservation and telling customers their order would be with them next week when I know it will be the week after. Again, que the inner critic”-

    – You prefaced lies with white little– The Chimp, when it is in charge, often harasses us with invalid, false guilt, like in your first example. The response of the one harassed: defending against all accusations of guilt, including against valid, true guilt by minimizing or denying it.

    * By self preservation, do you mean that customers threatened to hit you if their orders were late, or a supervisor instructed you to lie to customers and you were afraid to defy instructions and lose your job?

    “Another value I aim to live by is: I do what’s right Again, this is closely related to the value above and whilst I do live a good moral life, lying to that customer earlier, eating that chocolate cake at lunch, whilst aiming to lose a few pounds is not the right thing to do. Again, the inner critic comes at me… I am extremely tough on myself“-

    – Here is the problem: the inner critic comes at you, being aggressive, being extremely tough on you.

    Has anyone any general advice on this topic? All input welcomed and appreciated“-Your aggressive inner critic is your aggressively-critical Inner parent. Replace your aggressive inner critic with a gentle, kind and yet firm inner critic.

    When a child has an aggressive, accusatory parent who is extremely tough on the child (a Chimp Parent, my term), the child tries very hard to do what’s right so to avoid the Chimp Parent’s aggression, feeling a lot of invalid, false guilt, and the child hates feeling guilty so much/ afraid of the Chimp Parent’s aggression, that he minimizes and denies valid, true guilt.

    Replace your Chimp Inner Parent (Chip, for short) with a Human Inner Parent (Hip, for short), a Hip who applies logic, looks for objective evidence and the bigger picture, considers feelings but is not ruled by them, and is kind, yet firm.

    You mentioned chocolate cake: “eating that chocolate cake at lunch, whilst aiming to lose a few pounds is not the right thing to do“- a Chip would harass you over it, putting you down, accusing you… telling you that you shouldn’t have had any cake and should never have cake again…  making you feel oh so bad that you’d crave more chocolate cake so to feel better.

    A Hip would react differently, he’d tell you something like: I can see how much you enjoy chocolate cake, and I want you to enjoy it. I want you to feel good. I also know that you want to lose a few pounds, so I’ll tell you what: have a thin slice of cake twice a week. Which two days of the week would you choose?

    anita

    in reply to: Feeling Stressed out #425570
    anita
    Participant

    Dear EdwardMatthew:

    You are welcome here even if you “don’t even know what (you’re) writing!

    It is interesting how elevated stress works: “I’ve been feeling very stressed out for not working… don’t like anything to do other than  just stay in my room“-

    – your body is quite stationary, not moving (staying in your room), but your thoughts are running: after you typed “I’ve been feeling very stressed out“, your sentences are run-on sentences, no punctuation, no periods, they keep running until your last sentence.

    When thoughts are running all over, the brain is in a useless state of overdrive and the body can’t move, it’s weighted down by the thoughts.

    So first, one needs to slow down the thoughts, and to turn down the volume of the loud, distressing thoughts.. to relax.

    I have been in the mental (and physical) state you are in. Many people have. You can be in a different state: a relatively relaxed mental state where you see who you are and where you are with clarity, a state where clarity replaces confusion. From that mental state, you will know what to do next.

    You mentioned not working, not taking part in family matters, and not having friends you can talk with about your mental state.. Would you like to talk more here, and elaborate on any of these three items you mentioned?

    anita

    in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #425559
    anita
    Participant

    No, it’s not a heart.. oh well. Be back to you bot, Seaturtle and hatch  tomorrow!

    anita

    in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #425558
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seatutle: I will get back to you tomorrow (heart)- I just clicked on “insert/ edit link, typed in google for Source and heart for Image.. and let’s see if I get a heart after I submit this post…

    anita

     

     

    in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #425556
    anita
    Participant

    * Please ignore this part:

    “Very possible.

    “– my understanding: hatchling has been trying so hard to gain her father’s approval by behaving in ways that would gain his approval, ways that didn’t feel true to her, or didn’t yet feel true to her (hatchling needed time and opportunities to become her true, genuine self).  “

    The way I reply is to copy a member’s post and then reply to it part by part, deleting the parts of the post that I do not respond to. I neglected to delete one of these parts (the above).

    anita

    in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #425555
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    First, the journal entry from yesterday (Tuesday): … N arrived late Sunday morning…

    “I told him why I was bothered, and he did this thing I absolutely hate..  He says ‘what do you mean, I can’t take a two second phone call?’ downplaying what he does, like I am crazy. I said ‘No you took a phone call within 10 minutes of us getting up from sex, I was naked in front of you.’ He said ‘you wondered about (at) the time, how am I suppose to know we are still in that space,’… He gives me the dumbest look ever like he has ABSOLUTELY no idea why I would be bothered, just kind shakes his head, squinting his eyes. And shaking his head he says ‘I don’t understand why you allow things to bother you, and you have to ruin our morning because of it,’ this makes me feel invalidated… I still don’t understand… I don’t necessarily think what he did was wrong, but it was at least insensitive”-

    – If it happened before that he took a phone call 10 minutes or so after the two of you had sex, while you were still naked, and you told him that it bothered you, and then, he did it again, maybe you’d have a legitimate complaint the 2nd time it happened.

    I say “maybe” because (1) a person should be given some grace for forgetting once or twice, and (2) because depending on how long the list of his behaviors that bother you, it can be too difficult or impossible to remember all on a regular basis. If the list is long.. it’s a walking on egg shells experience for him.

    If this Sunday was the first time this particular incident happened, he didn’t downplay what happened.. he simply didn’t know that taking that phone call would bother you: he is not a mind reader.

    “I proceed to have a fantastic play .. the audience was really into it and fed into our performance, over all just the best genuine vibe. The whole cast was in their feels, there was so much sincerity in that room, people taking selfies, making future plans, congratulating each other, thanking each other“- excellent and congratulations!

    “laughing N turns to me with a sad puppy dog face saying ‘that won’t happen to you right?’ At this point with a couple drinks he shows his real reactions to things, as I wish he did regularly”- you place way, way too much weight on what he said.. reads like he was having a light moment, having some fun following a couple of drinks.. nothing rude or offensive.

    It seems like what you found offensive was not the words he uttered, but the words that silently crossed your mind about what he said.

    “Then, I am afraid of your disappointment here but just listen to the whole story, I smoked a vape…After I smoked it.. I called him to just say goodnight and give it one last effort to see how he was. This time his voice was more uppity, happier, lighter and real? he said ‘please don’t feel bad…’ At the time I believed him but as I am been journaling here I don’t know if I do, he was probably ‘happier’ because he smoked a ton of weed when he got home, what he often does when he is stressed. This was the end of my day, but then the night began…

    “I woke up at 3:30 am from a terrible nightmare, I looked over at the vape and suddenly it clicked to me, I was being spiritually attacked, this vape lowered my vibration so low that my armor was down and exposed to the spiritual realm. I dreamt of animals sticking their claws into my skin, it was the nicotine, I was running from the animals, everything in my body was telling me that nicotine was enabling me to be attacked…  Instead of going to sleep I got up at 3:30, to confront the darkness…  I let go of my resistance to the pain and I reached a peaceful moment where I was friends with the pain, it brought me joy and I smiled, realizing that I was okay, I could do it”-

    – (1) the making friends with pain was a positive emotional- spiritual experience. (2) there is a close correlation between taking drugs and having spiritual experiences: this is what the 1960s counter culture generation was about, taking LSD aka dropping acid.  Many people of the counter culture at the time had positive spiritual awakenings as a result of some drugs, but such awakenings fizzled out and left no positive, lasting mark on neither the people of the 60s nor on the world as a whole, a world that is in more trouble than it ever was.

    No doubt in my mind that nicotine is bad for you. I hope that you don’t vape (or smoke) again but I understand that you might. I don’t think less of you for vaping.. it’s just that it’s not good for you, or for anyone.

    “But in the morning on my 5 am alarm and on my drive to hot Pilates…  I had a revelation; Hatchling was afraid that I would allow N to hurt me and stay with him! This hit me hard. I immediately wrote in my notes: ‘Maybe I don’t trust myself to move on if I am in a situation where I am being hurt. Hatch doesn’t trust that sea turtle will remove her from the situation and instead just take the abuse. So when there is the slightest illusion of abuse hatchling is like ‘what are you gonna do about this!’ But dear hatchling we can’t control everything, N has not yet done something to sincerely harm us, dad did. He is not dad. And if N does harm us (like we were harmed by dad) we will leave, because we are great alone and I am not afraid of being single and I am not afraid of leaving one love for another. I promise hatchling.'”-

    – E x C e L L e N t   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    so what do you think/know about this?“- I think I answered this question above in regard to the 1960s  (did I?). You had a very positive emotional- spiritual experience. Don’t seek more spiritual awakenings by vaping more.. it doesn’t work on the long-run.

    Secondly, your.. 2nd post from yesterday:

    “Since 2018 when I went to Argentina… I lived there for 6 months… my first time living away from my parents..  may even be 2017 when I began therapy actually after my failed harm/suicide attempt did not pan out… I grew a lot in 2020 when I lived alone during quarantine… This year (2023) however, has been the most growth in the area of discovery why I feel the way I feel… I met Nathan mid-2021 and I think my self growth and self care took a halt because spending time with him was addicting and momentarily, for about a year pretty much felt like it solved my problems… Then move to Arizona, his priority was no longer me at the front… I move out. Now I am resuming the self care and discovery that I began before…

    “Here’s what I think about when I ask myself ‘who am I?’: I am deeply connected to something on this earth, I am sensitive to people’s energies and to the dark and lightness of the world. I am artistic, I can bring things from my head out through my hand onto a surface. I am funny in my own way, People enjoy my ability to laugh at myself and say what is on my mind, I saw what is on my mind. I am trusting, which makes me vulnerable to manipulation. I am a healer of sorts, I know how to change people’s moods, I speak to people how I speak to myself, I am very in tuned with my inner dialogue and this makes me relatable to people. I am a super taster, my senses are sensitive inside and out. I see art and it moves me, I smell and taste food that makes me want to dance, I hear music through my bones. As a child I wasn’t allowed to watch certain things, but I snuck what I wanted to watch, I was always okay with not watching creepy or horror movies or even images. I could not let my mind see those things because of how sensitive I have always been to what I let into me, my imagination has allowed me to fully daydream and pass hours at a time in a daze. I am an optimist, despite having negative days of course, I believe things work out if you put good out it will return to you. I am spiritual as opposed to religious because I try to see the good in something when another person tells me it is wrong, there must be something right if that many people live by it right? I am (almost naturally said my name on here haha kinda want to) I am a Hawaiian flower dipped in Italian sas (yes sas not sauce haha). I am gentle, but I am firm about certain things. I am competitive. I am an empath, seeing people in pain pains me. I am open minded, I clash with closed minded people. I am one with music, I feel it very deeply and can move to the beat very well in different ways, my mom was a dance teacher and my sisters both dance, I watched LOTS of dance growing up and I am a self taught, not by the book at all,  ballerina, and contemporary dancer in my mirrors. I am thoughtful. I am of the Sea. I chose Seaturtle because I have a premonition I was a Seaturtle in a past life. I have been told my face has the shape of a turtle more than once hahaha AND I am deathly afraid of sharks for no reason. Sharks are the animal I am most curious about, they scare me and I am addicted to the fear in a weird way.”-

    – I copied and pasted ALL that you shared about who you are because it is ALL precious, all valuable. And so beautifully articulated!

    Thirdly, your 3rd post from yesterday: “I have been using this visual a lot the last couple days. However, how do you tell the voices apart at times. For example right now, N is planning to bring over dinner and spend the eve with me tonight. Some part of me wants him to come, a hug sounds nice, his smile and cuddles and eating together all sound good. Another part of me wonders if him coming over is best, if I need to be alone, I feel a little anxious that he will trigger me… Does hatchling want to tell N not to come? Or is it Seaturtle who wants to protect hatchling and tell N not to come? in other words who wants him to come for a hug and comfort, Seaturtle or hatchling?”-

    – Hatchling is the one who wants N to come over, wanting N to hug her, wanting to see his smile, to feel his cuddles and to eat with him and it is Hatchling who is afraid that N will trigger and upset her. Hatchling is the part of you that feels and thinks short-term, with a very close/ no-distance association with what she feels. An example would be, Hatchling feels fear of N triggering her and she thinks: I will call him and tell him to not come over and immediately calls him.

    Seaturtle is the part of you who- from some distance from Hatchling, with some objectivity/ looking at the bigger picture- is thinking about what’s best for Hatchling considering hatchling’s feelings and closely associated thoughts, as well as considering past experience and overall goals in regard to healing (the bigger picture), trying to come up with a logical, sensible long-term solution to the conflict that Hatchling is experiencing. An example would be, Seaturtle thinks: Hatchling is conflicted, let me have a talk with her (similar to a parent talking to their scared child) .. And she decides what best for Hatchling based on that talk. Maybe what’s best for Hatchling in this case would be to have N come over for only an hour, a predetermined amount of time.

    “Yes I feel this. Although I know who I am to an extent as I wrote above, I still freeze and forget who I am”- when we freeze, we forget. True to everyone. Try to not get alarmed by what is true to everyone.

    “Exactly, hearing her is where I am now. But As I wrote earlier about who I am, can I know who I am and still struggle to hear hatchling? Or do you need to fully be in-tuned and have a good relationship with hatchling to know who you are?“-

    – the more in tune you are with Hatchling, the better relationship you have with her, the more you hear her=> the more you  know who you are/ the better your mental-emotional (and spiritual) health.

    Very possible.

    “– my understanding: hatchling has been trying so hard to gain her father’s approval by behaving in ways that would gain his approval, ways that didn’t feel true to her, or didn’t yet feel true to her (hatchling needed time and opportunities to become her true, genuine self).  “

    “When I met N, I did not want to conform for someone to like me, and I was very aware of this tendency, but what if at some point I just unknowingly fell back into this pattern and tried to be what he wanted for his approval. Hm I have to think more about this idea..”-

    – our initial, awareness-based, newer intents (to not conform, in this case) fizzle out/ weaken over time while old tendencies and old patterns become stronger. This is why it is very important to .. live life mindfully on a regular basis.

    I wrote to you: “Whenever she succeeded in getting F’s (temporary, conditional) approval, she said to herself something like: he didn’t approve of the true me..“, and your response (at the end of your 3rd post):  “Very accurate. As I was writing this final response I felt nervous that it was going to overwhelm you with how much I have written. Please don’t feel like you need to rush to respond or to too much at once. Thank you.. Seaturtle and hatch”-

    – (1) reads to me that you were afraid of losing me/ my support here.. to the overwhelm factor..? No worries, hatchling. I like you!  You are not too much for me!  (2)You are both welcome, Seaturtle and hatch!

    anita

    in reply to: Extremely painful breakup and confusion #425553
    anita
    Participant

    Re-submitted (hopefully without the excess print):

    Dear Stacy:

    (I am adding the boldface feature to the following quotes): “I really appreciated being chosen by him because he was the type of guy who didn’t go for the conventional types. I respect when a guy isn’t attracted to those types because I have never identified that way. I always knew I was the outcast with alternative quirks…protect myself from bullies. I liked that he not only saw this as special in me, he resonated with it too and it made us feel like a team, us against the world“-

    – an outcast: a person who has been rejected by society (online definition). Wikipedia has a long entry on social rejection. It reads in part: “Social rejection occurs when an individual is deliberately excluded from a social relationship or social interaction. The topic includes interpersonal rejection (or peer rejection), romantic rejection and familial estrangement…  rejection can be either active, by bullying, teasing, or ridiculing, or passive by ignoring a person, or giving the ‘silent treatment’… Although humans are social beings, some level of rejection is an inevitable part of life. Nevertheless, rejection can become a problem when it is prolonged or consistent, when the relationship is important, or when the individual is highly sensitive to rejection…The experience of rejection can lead to a number of adverse psychological consequences such as loneliness, low self-esteem, aggression, and depression. It can also lead to feelings of insecurity and a heightened sensitivity to future rejection…

    “The need for love and belongingness is a fundamental human motivation… Psychologists believe that simple contact or social interaction with others is not enough to fulfill this need. Instead, people have a strong motivational drive to form and maintain caring interpersonal relationships”.

    This entry on social isolation makes me understand myself better and it helps me understand you (and other people) better. I now understand your intense and prolonged sensitivity to rejection by him, why- as the title of your thread indicates- the breakup has been so “Extremely painful“.

    Like me, you’ve been rejected by peers, and worse: you were bullied by peers.  Plus, like me, you suffered from familial estrangement. In the entry, it reads (again, quoting): “The need for love and belongingness is a fundamental human motivation… Psychologists believe that simple contact or social interaction with others is not enough to fulfill this need. Instead, people have a strong motivational drive to form and maintain caring interpersonal relationships“-

    – you lived your whole life with your family, being in daily contact and interacting with family members.. but these interactions were not caring-enough for you: not enough to fulfil your unfulfilled fundamental human need for love and belongingness.

    Back to what you wrote, the quote with which I started this post: you felt like he, a fellow outcast of sorts, an unconventional, quirky type, chose you as a positively special person to be “a team, us against the world“. Without this team, you are back to being all alone, back to your prolonged and consistent experience of social isolation.

    I now understand why the pain of the breakup has been so intense, prolonged and consistent, why “It feels like a cinderblock on (your) heart“.

    “Our third weekend together/date was on October 8th of last year… I’m assuming now in retrospect that he literally meant he had JUST messaged her this that weekend…This further supports my new notion that he lied to me about when things officially ended with his ex. He told me it had been two months before we met. Yet here, he claimed LAST WEEKEND (as in the weekend prior to us meeting) he was heartbroken???… I don’t sense one part of him being remotely in turmoil or ‘heartbroken’ over ME.”-

    – I now understand why every word he said, every emotion he expressed.. matters to you so much. From one point on, in your mind, he was the only person in the whole wide world who (you felt) satisfied that “need for love and belongingness“, a need that psychologists refer to as “a fundamental human motivation“.

    No wonder you are still so emotionally attached to him, why you don’t let him go. Question is: can you have this fundamental human motivation directed elsewhere..?

    anita

    in reply to: Extremely painful breakup and confusion #425552
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Stacy:

    (I am adding the boldface feature to the following quotes): “I really appreciated being chosen by him because he was the type of guy who didn’t go for the conventional types. I respect when a guy isn’t attracted to those types because I have never identified that way. I always knew I was the outcast with alternative quirks…protect myself from bullies. I liked that he not only saw this as special in me, he resonated with it too and it made us feel like a team, us against the world“-

    – an outcast: a person who has been rejected by society (online definition). Wikipedia has a long entry on social rejection. It reads in part: “Social rejection occurs when an individual is deliberately excluded from a social relationship or social interaction. The topic includes interpersonal rejection (or peer rejection), romantic rejection and familial estrangement…  rejection can be either active, by bullying, teasing, or ridiculing, or passive by ignoring a person, or giving the ‘silent treatment’…<sup id=”cite_ref-2″ class=”reference”></sup>Although humans are social beings, some level of rejection is an inevitable part of life. Nevertheless, rejection can become a problem when it is prolonged or consistent, when the relationship is important, or when the individual is highly sensitive to rejection… <sup id=”cite_ref-3″ class=”reference”></sup>The experience of rejection can lead to a number of adverse psychological consequences such as loneliness, low self-esteem, aggression, and depression. It can also lead to feelings of insecurity and a heightened sensitivity to future rejection…<sup id=”cite_ref-5″ class=”reference”></sup>

    “The need for love and belongingness is a fundamental human motivation… Psychologists believe that simple contact or social interaction with others is not enough to fulfill this need. Instead, people have a strong motivational drive to form and maintain caring interpersonal relationships”.

    This entry on social isolation makes me understand myself better and it helps me understand you (and other people) better. I now understand your intense and prolonged sensitivity to rejection by him, why- as the title of your thread indicates- the breakup has been so “Extremely painful“.

    Like me, you’ve been rejected by peers, and worse: you were bullied by peers.  Plus, like me, you suffered from familial estrangement. In the entry, it reads (again, quoting): “The need for love and belongingness is a fundamental human motivation… Psychologists believe that simple contact or social interaction with others is not enough to fulfill this need. Instead, people have a strong motivational drive to form and maintain caring interpersonal relationships“-

    – you lived your whole life with your family, being in daily contact and interacting with family members.. but these interactions were not caring-enough for you: not enough to fulfil your unfulfilled fundamental human need for love and belongingness.

    Back to what you wrote, the quote with which I started this post: you felt like he, a fellow outcast of sorts, an unconventional, quirky type, chose you as a positively special person to be “a team, us against the world“. Without this team, you are back to being all alone, back to your prolonged and consistent experience of social isolation.

    I now understand why the pain of the breakup has been so intense, prolonged and consistent, why “It feels like a cinderblock on (your) heart“.

    “Our third weekend together/date was on October 8th of last year… I’m assuming now in retrospect that he literally meant he had JUST messaged her this that weekend…This further supports my new notion that he lied to me about when things officially ended with his ex. He told me it had been two months before we met. Yet here, he claimed LAST WEEKEND (as in the weekend prior to us meeting) he was heartbroken???… I don’t sense one part of him being remotely in turmoil or ‘heartbroken’ over ME.”-

    – I now understand why every word he said, every emotion he expressed.. matters to you so much. From one point on, in your mind, he was the only person in the whole wide world who (you felt) satisfied that “need for love and belongingness“, a need that psychologists refer to as “a fundamental human motivation“.

    No wonder you are still so emotionally attached to him, why you don’t let him go. Question is: can you have this fundamental human motivation directed elsewhere..?

    anita

     

    in reply to: Was I led on or was it all my imagination? #425542
    anita
    Participant

    * The post above didn’t come out right, editing and re-submitting:

    Dear Priyan:

    You are very welcome!

    “When I met her over the weekend, I casually told her that I am planning on going back to the dating apps to meet new women. She got excited over this and even offered to help me set up my dating profile. If her intent was indeed to get me interested in her romantically to gain control, why would she seem to not care when I said I am going to date other women?”-

    – she did care: she was not indifferent. She was excited. She cared enough to feel excited and/ or to appear excited about your intent to date other women.

    “But why bother having me emotionally invest in her if she was going to friendzone me anyway? Then was it all a game to give her ego a boost?“-

    –  I think that it is indeed a game for her. Going about dating the traditional way didn’t work for her, Going about it the way she is going about it works for her (so far), in that she better, in control.. not helpless and vulnerable like she used to feel.

    “While my brain wants me to walk away, my heart wants me to continue seeing her even though it know it will end badly deep down“- do you mean that it will end badly for you as you further lose control over the situation, getting more hurt in a situation that is out of your control, a situation that is in the control of a woman who seeks to control it?

    anita

    in reply to: Was I led on or was it all my imagination? #425541
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Priyan:

    You are very welcome!

    “When I met her over the weekend, I casually told her that I am planning on going back to the dating apps to meet new women. She got excited over this and even offered to help me set up my dating profile. If her intent was indeed to get me interested in her romantically to gain control, why would she seem to not care when I said I am going to date other women?”-

    But why bother having me emotionally invest in her if she was going to friendzone me anyway? Then was it all a game to give her ego a boost?“-

    –  I think it’s a game for her. Going about dating the traditional way didn’t work for her, Going about it the way she is going about it works better for her: it makes her feel better, in control.. not vulnerable like she used to be,

    While my brain wants me to walk away, my heart wants me to continue seeing her even though it know it will end badly deep down“- it will end badly as you further lose control over the situation, getting ( more) hurt by a situation that is in the control of a woman who seeks control (as I see it)?

    anita

    in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #425539
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    I am looking forward to read your two recent posts and reply Wed morning, Have a good evening and night!

    anita

    in reply to: Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships #425155
    anita
    Participant

    Dear  Seaturtle:

    Good to read that you are listening to Hatchling who is fatigued and needs rest, good job, Seaturtle! Thank you for the red heart emoji- red heart back to you (can you believe it.. I am so low tech I don’t know how to insert an emoji here!)

    Get back to me when the time is right for you!

    anita

    in reply to: Is it okay to want to be happy? #425126
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Kodi:

    You are very welcome. You called your perimenopause experience “a fairly new addition“.

    “Then I felt really guilty. I don’t feel like I have a support system to lean on because my husband and parents are sick of hearing me complain”-

    – how about another fairly new addition to your life: support and empathy for yourself. No more feeling guilty for being in pain, or for feeling miserable, or for feeling anything at all that you are feeling.

    I am sorry, Kodi, that you have suffered for so long. I wish you didn’t suffer at all, but since you do suffer- as we all do, to one extent or another, at any one time- minimize your suffering by peeling off unnecessary pain (guilt, shame, overthinking, etc.) from pain that you have to deal with (ex. perimenopause)?

    I will soon be away from the computer, but would like to read more from you anytime you feel like posting. Here you can share all that you feel and it will not be too much for me to read.

    anita

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