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Telling the difference between gut and fear in relationships

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  • #423564
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Helcat,

    Thank you for your kind words šŸ™‚

    I hope you also saw my message onĀ  October 18, 2023 at 12:06 pm, I know it is long and if you don’t have the energy to respond I can understand, but I thought maybe you did not see it with all the many messages back and forth.

    Seaturtle

    #423565
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Anita,

    Ever since I responded a couple hours ago I can’t shake this pit in my stomach of breaking up with my partner. If he will never truly see me then I need to leave. But I can sense the pain of separating and it scares and pains me deeply. He has become by home.

    #423573
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hi Seaturtle

    Thank you for sharing. I’m sorry but I will have to get back to you tomorrow again. Lots of family drama atm. I should be fine and able to focus after sleeping though.

    Love and best wishes! ā¤ļø šŸ™

    #423574
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Oh yes, I saw it. It just takes a bit more thought and concentration to reply to those kinds of things. I don’t want to be unfocused and not give the thoughts you shared the attention they deserve.

    😊

    #423575
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    We need so much from other people, more than most can offer, A boyfriend cannot be all that you need him to be. There needs to beĀ  compromise.. so don’t rush to break up with him. You will soon make the right choice for you. It will be YOUR choice. I’ll read your whole recent posts and reply further tomorrow.

    anita

    #423588
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    The example you gave: he tickled you=> it triggered your past trauma=> you backed away from cuddling=>he accused you of withholding affection from him=>you apologized to him for withholding affection from him and explained why (the past trauma)=> he told you that your explanation was an excuse, claiming that backing away from cuddling with him was something wrong that you did, an offense, something for which you were guilty, and that your explanation was your attempt to lessen the blameĀ  attaching to (a fault or offense)Ā (online definition of the word excuse).

    Questions: (1) How long after the tickling session did the two of you sit down on the couch in front of the TV and him trying to cuddle with you? (2) What happened in between the ticking and his effort to cuddle: did you make it clear to him that you were upset by the tickling, was there a conversation about it? (3) When you backed away from the cuddling, did you feel angry at him, wanting to punish him for the tickling? (4) Do you always cuddle with him, whenever he feels like cuddling, no matter how you feel.. Does he always cuddle with you no matter how he feels?

    Does this involve confronting my father?“- I don’t think so, at least not at this point.

    Would journaling (more) about my experiences with my dad help to release them? Often I feel when I talk or think about them it brings me down, but maybe it is helping, because I do still have strong feelings there under the surface if I tap into them“-Best would be to do express and process theses strong feelings in the context of quality professional psychotherapy. I don’t remember if we talked about psychotherapy, but given that your father is financially well-off, it will be very appropriate for him to pay for such.

    He lets go of things quite fast“- there is an advantage to having a TM. I would like to have more Teflon in mine!

    N can go in and out of it, but majorly he is Teflon unfortunately“- I suppose TM is a spectrum thing: everyone has it, some more than others.

    OFTEN, growing up with my dad and now with N I feel this need to be more like a TF. He calls his TF behavior stoicism.’ and he does make TF behavior look more relaxing, like he often just tells me to relax, which sometimes I wonder if that is what I need to do, sometimes it is but other times I do want to talk about the why of something“- being somewhere in the middle of the TM Spectrum is probably a good idea; to apply Teflon selectively, depending on the topic and circumstances.

    Since the beginning of our relationship (because, and what keeps me with him) I felt this feeling that he would be in my life for a while, his presence was soothing and he was so kind to everyone, and a hard worker with good intentions, he gives back to the community…“-

    -and yet, you’ve been doubting the relationship and thinking a lot about breaking up with him for a long time:

    “Please help me, my mind hasn’t rested in 8 months… I don’t think we are soulmates…Ā  I really have been having this entire debate in my head for a straight 6-8 months now and I don’t want to waste my time, I want to move on or commit. I don’t want to string this lovely man along, but I don’t want to make the wrong decision and make him the one that got away… I am exhausted with this decision and thought the answer would have come to me by now” (July 29)

    Have I wasted all this time of my youth in this relationship? I would hate to permanently lose him…. I can’t shake this pit in my stomach of breaking up with my partner. If he will never truly see me then I need to leave. But I can sense the pain of separating and it scares and pains me deeply. He has become by home” (Oct 19).

    I was wondering earlier, before getting to the computer this morning, are you familiar with the term Relationship OCD (R-OCD)Ā and did you ever consider that it may apply to you?

    anita

    #423592
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    To answer your questions:

    1- After the tickling I backed away for maybe 10 minutes, then I felt bad because he looked almost ashamed of what he “did”…(perhaps how his mother made him feel like a bad/ immoral kid)Ā  2- Yes. I told him I was sorry for making him feel like he was bad or was hurting me. When I told him I was cold/held affection because I needed space after being triggered by my past, he called it an excuse, excusing my reaction. 3- Interesting yes. But I felt angry that he was not trying to come make amends. Then after about 10 min my heart softened to how he was feeling. 4- Not quite, because I like what I call “active cuddling,” where I feel his movement, touching my hair, or rubbing my back. I often feel like getting up and moving around if we are just laying there, which is what he prefers (to just lay there). Whenever I want his version of cuddling it is typically available, but I often don’t want justĀ that unless I am tired. But this could also have to do with the fact he works soooo much, so he is often very tired and I think just has the energy to lay there. He started a painting company and has been working nonstop the past 2 months, to the point where yesterday he even told me he forgot to eat. He does not get enough sleep, he has a hard time not answer a work call on a Sunday, when we have a relax day. He has to ask me to take his phone away, or turn it off completely.

    Ā “I don’t remember if we talked about psychotherapy, but given that your father is financially well-off, it will be very appropriate for him to pay for such.”

    Money is a very touchy subject with my dad. He holds it over peoples head, has high expectations in return (like my need to text him while I was at college all the time that “I appreciate you” “thank you” “I couldn’t do this without you” etc. This is my first year 100% financial independent from him so it makes me nervous to ask for anything money related. When money is involved the caring dad goes away and the one who is afraid he is being taken advantage of surfaces and it is a place of great paranoia and fear. Many peopleĀ haveĀ taken advantage of him, his own dad and perhaps my mom once upon a time.

    ā€œHe lets go of things quite fastā€œ- there is an advantage to having a TM. I would like to have more Teflon in mine!

    being somewhere in the middle of the TM Spectrum is probably a good idea; to apply Teflon selectively, depending on the topic and circumstances.

    Do you know how a feeler can learn to gain teflon and vise versa?

    -and yet, you’ve been doubting the relationship and thinking a lot about breaking up with him for a long time:

    Yes, this is why my mind hasn’t rested because it is at war. You’ve now seen a glimpse into what I love about him, but when I feel unseen or that distance between us, due to the TF, I want to run to someone who does see me. The fact he doesn’t SEE me is what makes me still doubt we are soulmates.

    I was wondering earlier, before getting to the computer this morning, are you familiar with the termĀ Relationship OCD (R-OCD)Ā and did you ever consider that it may apply to you?

    As I read this I almost laughed because of how relatable the term is, no I haven’t heard of it, but it must apply to me. I think about it way too much, it is consuming. But what feels consuming is the decision, and feeling I am running out of time if I want a relationship I can build and have a strong foundation, then introduce a family into.

    Sending gentle waves šŸ™‚

    Seaturtle

    #423593
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Dear Helcat,

    No worries at all, I just wanted to make sure you saw the response to your message šŸ™‚ I am sorry for what you are going through and please use your energy for your family right now and don’t feel pressure to get back here quickly. Take care of yourself and I hope to hear from you when you return,

    Sending my best to you,

    Seaturtle

    #423595
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    I will read and reply by Monday (you said that you’d like to take the weekends off). Please try to have a good, relaxing .. Teflon weekend!

    anita

    #423596
    seaturtle
    Participant

    Anita,

    Hahaha, thank you! I will enjoy, I hope you do as well!

    Seaturtle

    #423602
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hi Seaturtle

    Thank you for your patience and compassion! Please feel free to read this on Monday, since you like to have a break over the weekend.

    I know exactly how you feel with the issues with apologies. I’ve had similar issues too with my husband. I’m glad to hear that your partner did get better at apologising though. Mine did too.

    It also helped to calm my triggers to be treat with empathy and validation. I think that as time went on and we worked on things, I was more able to differentiate between the past and the present. I ended up feeling less and less the need for him to apologize to help soothe my anxiety because it became very clear to me that it was less to do with him and his behaviour and more to do with my past.

    Regarding passive aggressive jokes, would be you like to share an example? I think this is something that I’ve been guilty of myself. I appreciate sarcastic humour, whereas my husband doesn’t. It annoyed my sister too when I would be sarcastic. I think that it’s important to take on board that feedback from people and even though it’s a tense situation and a sarcastic joke might lighten my mood, it can have the opposite effect on others. Being sensitive to other people’s needs is important especially to avoid escalating conflict.

    It can definitely be difficult living with people so closely. It really takes some getting used to. I remember being annoyed by the lack of space for the first 6 months when my husband and I started living together. I hope that moving out helps you to process and gives you that comfort of having your own space.

    I think that therapy could be helpful in the event that you two decide to live together again. You know now that it is a triggering experience for you both and could honestly use some support to help manage this. I think it’s possible to overcome this in a relationship if both partners are committed to supporting each other and working on it together.

    Thank you for sharing your experiences of your trauma being invalidated, even though it was challenging for you. You have a lot of strength for being able to do so! What your partner doesn’t understand is that to articulate such deep emotions takes a lot of courage. It’s not a sign of weakness, it’s very much a strength that allows you to heal.

    #423603
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I’m sorry for the amount of suffering that you and your siblings experienced as a result of your father. I did wonder if he was violent at all because of the extent of your trauma. Even witnessing violence from a parent is traumatic.

    It’s really difficult because up until recently. Knowledge about trauma and it’s effects has been really limited. It’s only in our lifetime that hitting children has started to be banned. For generations, trauma has been handed down unrecognised and untreated.

    I’m sorry to hear that your father would invalidate your trauma, actively deny it and blame you for it. That is extremely painful to experience. Unfortunately, that is very common when it comes to abusive parents. I experienced the same thing with mine too. I wonder, did your father suffer from depression at all?

    In some cases, parents who have been abusive flip between denial and periods of lucidity where they experience depression and self-hatred as a result of the way that they’ve treat their children. They don’t usually articulate this as a reason for their depression to their children. I believe it’s a self-protective mechanism for them to live in denial.

    I’m glad to hear that your relationship with your father has since improved. Sometimes I find that can create a disconnect or confusion about how was see them. At other times, having trauma invalidated by our abusers can create a sense of confusion and denial about our experiences in ourselves. Do you think you experienced any of this at all?

    It’s extremely important that your partner works on not invalidating your trauma.

    It is difficult for him to deal with your triggers because of his experiences with his parents. He is very sensitive to perceived criticism at this time. It’s honestly hard to say what kinds of things he experienced during his father’s periods of over sharing and it’s definitely concerning that he experienced that. I think that you’re a very empathetic person and now that it’s clear there is a trigger for him you will do your best to be sensitive to his needs while trying to manage your own.

    I think there might also be an additional element too. You’re a very empathetic person, with great communication skills. During a trigger this breaks down a bit. I know that this is one reason why I go quiet sometimes too. I don’t want to say anything harmful to my partner. And sometimes the negative thoughts during a trigger are very strong. There are times when this ā€œleaksā€ and can be harmful to your partner. I think it can be jarring for partners to experience the contrast between such attentive careful communication and a breakdown. I’m sure that you never intend to hurt your partner. It is just that difficult to communicate effectively when triggered sometimes. It gets easier with a lot of practice. I’m sure that you do your best and it is always something to keep working on.

    I’m glad that your partner feels comfortable sharing with you when he feels hurt and that you are receptive to this, do your best to manage the situation and validate his feelings.

    He needs to improve on doing the same for you. It sounds like sometimes he isn’t as receptive to your concerns when you raise them. But clearly, in some cases as with the apologies. There is improvement and he tries.

    In the long run, I think his willingness to address these issues will ultimately determine if you both stay together. You are very willing to support him and his needs.

    Have you ever had a discussion about him invalidating your trauma and how that makes you feel?

    I hope that you have a good weekend! Love and best wishes! ā¤ļø šŸ™

    #423604
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I forgot to add some context about my relationship. My husband also had an abusive background.

    I don’t remember if I’ve said this before, but I feel it’s important.

    For a long time, I felt a sense of distrust and resentment that he wasn’t able to behave ā€œperfectlyā€ and avoid triggering me. I was genuinely hyper vigilant in the relationship and afraid of being abused.

    It’s really difficult when the mind overlays past experiences onto our present. It is very confusing and ultimately, understandable that we want it to stop. But ultimately, my husband was never to blame. The traumatic experiences were to blame.

    Since I’ve come to understand the large impact my PTSD has on communication during disagreements in the relationship. It’s really helped me to accept him and forgive his very human mistakes when they occur and to let go of that resentment.

    I would also say that sometimes living with a roommate that you don’t like as well as a partner can exacerbate tensions. I went through this experience as well and honestly, it’s so much nicer living with only my partner and not having someone around that was actively uncomfortable to live with. Just added this because I seem to remember a roommate situation who you didn’t get on with.

    #423607
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    I am back sooner than I anticipated but I am okay with you either not reading or not responding to this post until next week, or whenever you choose.

    Before I read and reply to your last post, I want to offer you my best understanding at this time, starting with the concept of the inner child and how it applies to you: part of you does not know the difference between Past and Present; for this part what was still is. This is your inner child.. your inner hatchling (baby sea turtle), so to speak… Hatch, for short. The other part of you is the adult you for whom there is Past and Present.

    Hatch needed and still (there is no distinction for her between past and present), she needs to be seen and to be treated with kindness. Unfortunately for her, she was unseen and emotionally harassed by her father. The adult part of you thinks that it is something that happened, but for Hatch, it is still happening.

    When you take Hatch with you to meet your father (recently for that hour visit during his golf tournament), she doesn’t want to go because she’s scared of him and/ or she is angry with him, but you take her anyway, and you tell her to be nice and that there is nothing to worry about. So, she goes with you quietly, holding her feelings in, and makes it possible for you to have a nice visit with him.

    The visit is over, you take Hatch home and- no longer instructed to be nice and hold her feelings in- she let’s them out, aka she gets triggered in the company of your boyfriend and other people. The adult part of you thinks that her fear and/ or anger and other distress is about your boyfriend and the other people, but Hatch’s fear and anger, her distress, is about your father.

    The price you pay for having a nice adult relationship with your father is .. UNSEEING Hatch.

    To heal as much as is possible for you, you have to SEE Hatch and to do what’s in her best interest.

    * I want to submit this and then start a new post with the continuation of this theme as I re-read your past posts.

    anita

    #423609
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Seaturtle:

    We are extremely physically compatible, like at times what we do feels like absoluteĀ  MAGICĀ  Ā I feel I see the heavens and stars for multiple seconds at a time BUT” (July 29)- BUT when the magic doesn’t last and last; Hatch is still hurting, still distressed, still UNSEEN.

    He is supportive, he encourages me to do what I LOVE… He is not afraid of commitment with me, he talks about kids, willing to be a stay at home dad or be the bread winner, whatever I want!! He is truly a stand up man, he is so kind and deeply cares for those around him“-

    -The adult part of you sees these things about your boyfriend (N). But Hatch- for whom there is no distinction between Past and Present – does not see a supportive man who encourages her to do what she loves; she does not see a stand up man when she looks at N. Instead, she sees her father who does the opposite of encouraging or supporting her.

    For as long as Hatch has significant unresolved issues in regard to her father, she will keep seeing him in N (and in other people).

    Is this all just me running away from the most genuine and loving/caring/kind/PATIENT/ would-do-anything-for-me man ??????????????“-

    – I think it’s Hatch who is running away, running away from her father who is not genuinely caring or kind, a man who will not do what needs to be done for his daughter’s best interest.

    I am 24 and he is 26. I’ve had about 5 previous relationships but I ended each of them after about 3 months cause that was just how long it took me to realize they weren’t right and end it well” (October 10)- your relationship history fits my understanding that Hatch keeps seeing her father in men and.. she keeps running away, or wanting to run away (from her father).

    With my current partner, at that 3 month mark that feeling of wanting to break up was replaced with this light peaceful feeling that I could relax with him and almost like a voice was telling me he would be around for a while. It has never been a forever feeling though, but even now a fear of breaking up is that I want him in my life“-this light peaceful feeling is an indication that he is different from those who preceded him, that he may be the right man for you, or more accurately, it indicates that N may be the right man for you if and when Hatch’s significant issues in regard to her father are resolved.

    He accepts my flaws and loves me in spite, which touches me so deeply because I didn’t receive unconditional love from my father“- it doesn’t touch Hatch deeply enough .. because of these unresolved issues I keep mentioning, seeing her father in N.

    “Is this all just me running away from the most genuine and loving/caring/kind/PATIENT/ would-do-anything-for-me man ??????????????” (July 29) “The one about my father scares me more. He was very critical, I left a dish in his sink at his house, or left my backpack downstairs, basically left any trace of myself in ‘his’ house, he would get upset. in fact while I lived with him I went through a lot of suicidal thoughts and running away attempts” (October 11)-

    -Hatch- for whom there is no distinction between past and present, is still living in her father’s house, still distressed, still wanting to run away.

    I think I made my point, so now I will fast forward to your last post addressed to me, the one I did not yet read and respond to: in regard to the questions I asked you and your answers, I didn’t detect abuse on his part by his use of the word excuse, if he did not mean that your past childhood emotional trauma (those unresolved issues I repeatedly mentioned above) are not valid; if what he meant instead was to say that in the here-and-now experience, you felt angry at him and responded to your anger by withholding affection from him, similarly to what his mother did.

    To prevent this (withholding affection) from happening, it will take you SEEING Hatch, and then understanding that N is not your father, and redirecting your anger to whom it belongs.

    “Yes, this is why my mind hasn’t rested because it is at war. You’ve now seen a glimpse into what I love about him, but when I feel unseen or that distance between us, due to the TF, I want to run to someone who does see me. The fact he doesn’t SEE me is what makes me still doubt we are soulmates” (October 20)-

    – (1) When I first brought up the Teflon Mind (TM) topic, I thought that he may be an extreme case of it, but I no longer think so. (2) Your father has a HUGE impact on your emotional health: it is he who introduced war into your mind and it is he who is the reason you want to run/ run away (3) There is only one person who can make Hatch feel seen, and it is not N. It has to be you, the adult part of you. You will need the help of a few other people, but primarily, it needs to be Seaturtle (the adult) SEEING Hatchling (the inner child). Once seeing how Hatch really feels, it will take doing what’s right for her. If what’s right for her is to no longer hope that her father will finally see her, and then to never talk or visit him.. then don’t (have no contact with him).

    Hatch needs to be seen, and for her feelings, needs and wants to be validated and respected.. by you.

    Do you know how a feeler can learn to gain Teflon and vise versa?“-Ā  to no longer get triggered/ distressed/ wanting to run away from a good man (N), ask Hatch: who is the bad man she keeps wanting to run away from? If she feels your commitment to SEE her and then, to do what’s right for her.. she will tell you.

    anita

     

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