Dear Anita,

“if your purpose in texting him was indeed just this, to get your passport and snow gear back, it’d make sense that you were not interested in how he’s feeling beyond the  superficial (“keeping things light”), starting a conversational with the customary how are you?”

• this is interesting because as the week went on I asked myself why I really texted him and concluded that there was a wishful part of me that wanted him to have considered what he did wrong and be a new communicative person that wanted to speak and maybe even resume the relationship as a more self aware person. The urgency for my things did impact hitting send, but the words I wrote had my wishes of what response I wanted.

S: “I want to know if you have any desire to talk”- this could be understood as you wanting him to talk, inviting him to talk about his feelings regarding the relationship and breakup.

• yes this is what I was implying, I knew there was a 99% chance he would not want to talk, but I wanted to give him a window without pressure.

“you didn’t talk with him about his feelings, about him.. but about you. You didn’t invite him to elaborate on his 1-sentence answer above.”

• when he said ““words can’t describe how you’ve made me feel and I have no desire to waste any more energy with you” he said it, “words can’t describe…” After reading that I knew I wasn’t going to hear anymore elaboration, that was it, he could not describe it. Just as in our relationship, he does not have the words or capacity to express himself beyond that sentence, that short sentence, like you said “he talked about his feelings in a sentence” I would have loved for him to express more, and if I didn’t say the right thing to get that from him, I mean this was the pattern of our conversations, me trying to get him to express and him lacking the ability to volunteer information on how he felt, I have run out of ways to get him to express himself so I didn’t try very hard here I have him a small window by inviting him to express himself by asking if he had a desire to talk, which he responded, “words can’t describe” that was the only answer I was gonna get.

And “I’m really sorry for any pain I caused you” is a blanket apology, not specifying what pain you caused him, if any, and not inviting him to clarify the nature of his pain.”

• To me, it is his responsibility “to clarify the nature of his pain,” I am not a therapist for him, something I felt like in the relationship, trying to help him express himself. My apology was certainly heart felt, his sentence of how he felt made me feel bad. Like we have said, N was a good friend, Seaturtle could have been friends with him longer and D is a good friendship for them both. I feel bad for ending the friendship, and that is where my pain came from when he said I hurt him, I hurt a friend and I do feel badly about that, but I also know that we weren’t just a friendship, the fact we were attempting a love relationship made the ending necessary.

S: “Ok, I’m sorry to bother you. I know I left stuff at your house..”- finally, you stated the purpose of contacting him.

• After he said to leave him along, after the very brief conversation he was capable of, I wanted to respect his space. It is not that I was trying to get to the topic quickly, but he asked me to leave him alone so for him, I removed emotion and stated factually what I needed, that is since he did not desire to talk.

“- angry that he wouldn’t return your belongings.”

Yes, angry, confused and disappointed at his immaturity and his anger. The fact he did that, then went dark annoys me, because it tells me he thinks I deserved that, which means he likely blames me for the end of the relationship which is just so not true. To me, he pushed me away, and so I left. We had the same conversation, that we had at the breakup, several times. Other times it ended with me saying we should take a break, and him saying no, or me suggesting therapy and him saying no. We may still be together if he was willing to do anything I suggested out of a desire to stay with him, so I blame him for it having to end.

I haven’t stated that blame out loud or written before. Recently I told you how I feel like this breakup is tossing me around, sad and fearful I ended it too soon, to the next day more anger towards him, and I am sure you can feel in my writing today I am leaning on the anger at him. I wrote the last two posts above, yesterday, I was sad yesterday as it was his birthday and my emotions were higher, today I feel less emotional and more factual.

“it’s not the thought that you don’t know what love is that hurts you, but that he thinks he knows what love is…(?)”

It is the combination of both. It hurts me that he doesn’t think I know what love is, because I showed him love in every way I could and fought for our love, in my opinion more that he did. But that isn’t because he didn’t want to fight, but he didn’t see a need to fight for our love because he thought it was all fine and dandy, which also hurts me because he really just did not regard the things I said to him. Show me you love me by being on time and saying kind words as opposed to negative words, the fact he thought he was “loving me” upsets me. He was not, that C-word incident was among many times, that was the first incident with him repeating a crude word, but in the past if something bothered me and I reacted, he would continue to do it and tell me my reactions were the problem not his actions. I just fell for that every time, thinking I was too sensitive, it wasn’t until the c-word that I realized he was literally doing the opposite of love me, he was attacking me, “attack” feels like an extreme word but I can’t think of another word that suggests him coming “at” me, not being there with and for me…aka loving me.

I will respond to the second half of your third post in another reply.

Seaturtle

Dear Anita,

“I am saying all this not because I think that you fit the NPD (I really don’t know), or any personality disorder, but just in case you do- just in case you get diagnosed as such by a professional sometimes in the future- I want you to be open to the possibility, for therapeutic purposes.”

• I do appreciate you bringing this up, it makes me curious, but admittedly makes me fearful that I have more issues that I am unaware of. I have wondered if I have a personality disorder before, but just believe that I feel very in control of what I do and say, and I also stand by most of what I say and do. I feel like I stay aware enough, literally with the intention of staying aligned with who I believe I am, and I wonder, are people with those disorders capable of being authentic?

“-your desire to be positively/ admiringly seen as an individual apart from others in a romantic relationship and otherwise is intense.”

It is true, I have an overcompensating impulse to be seen by others and recognized as an individual. I was so unseen growing up, by my dad, but then also in highschool. During early highschool, or even middle school I don’t remember having this intense desire to be seen for my individuality, it developed and became more intense later in highschool, my soccer team literally ignored me in highschool. I told you before, but a recap, they thought I told the principal that they hazed the new freshmen and sophomores (me). When I actually didn’t, the hazing made me nauseous so I went home but I didn’t tell anyone, it was another girl who kept it a secret, the seniors and juniors were suspended from the first 6 games of the season and blaming me, they ignored me at practice for 2 years. That bullying had a huge impact, for one I didn’t know why they were ignoring me, I didn’t find out till my senior year that they thought I did anything. I just thought they didn’t like who I was, so I made an attempt to be as small as possible. Stopped talking, since I’d only be ignored, stopped asking for the ball, stopped basically playing soccer (my first love) and overall just wanted to be like everyone else and didn’t want to be myself, since that clearly was not accepted. I left highschool early to finish my degree and begin college courses, simultaneously, almost completely isolated from highschoolers, and anyone on my soccer team outside of practice and games. Just trying to blend in. Then I went to Argentina and that whole trip made me realize how strong I was, after the impact I took there as well. That is where I had my first out of body, “who am I and why am I here?” literally asking God. Again I felt so alone there, only English speaker aside from 3 translators, I learned spanish and made good friends there but the environment and activities they made us do were very challenging. Not to mention socially, the two translator girls treated me differently then they treated the spanish speakers, spoke to me like I was stupid and also ignored my requests, saying to go with the flow, yet I didn’t know the flow because instructions were told to us in Spanish, any ounce of control I had was taken from me, I was just told what to do and out of my obedient character I just did what I was told not matter how uncomfortable it made me. Unseen.

That was the first time I ever felt I heard God’s voice. I felt so unseen, so misunderstood, and so judged. And I was, I can elaborate on several stories, crying as I called my parents, crying to the sky, that trip was intense. I had nightmares that shadows pinned me to the ground and covered my mouth, taking every possible way to express myself away from me. It was those last 4 weeks of the trip (5 months total) that I literally felt like there must be a God or else I was completely alone, so I talked to the sky and I am telling you, I went from the most afraid, lonely and misunderstood place I have ever been and when I spoke to the sky I suddenly felt hugged, I felt this overwhelming sense of light, comfort and a soundless voice in my head said “It will be ok, I am not alone.” Ever since that moment, I have believed in God, but not in a religious way. I can go on about why not as well but I would be writing a book on here soon hahaha.

All this to say, yes, my craving to be seen is very intense, and I know it is an over compensation, and potency of the craving changes/fluctuates. But In my relationship with N, I was aware that he was not responsible for making me feel THAT seen. Honestly I feel like his lack of seeing me, in a strange way, was attractive to me because of how comforting it was, felt like home.

“– Part of you suspects that these expectations are ridiculous, but this part is not sure (hence the question, right?). Objectively, yes, it is ridiculous to think that N not always putting the toilet seat down means that he doesn’t think about you at all. “

I had to decide for myself what was ridiculous and what wasn’t. The toilet seat bothered me when I would fall into the toilet at night, and even after I told him that happened he didn’t seem to put much effort there, but I got over that one realizing he just forgets like all humans do. But it really bothered me once he came to my apartment and used my roommates bathroom, came out and said “oh wait forgot something” and went and put HER toilet seat down… he was being more considerate to her than me. Also the being late, he was 45 min late to breakfast with my mom and I, when she visited me. 45 min, that is ridiculous of him, but I was so understanding, I really tried my best to stay aware of the difference between too high of expectations, and reasonable standards.

“– this is how I understand this: as a child (not only as a teenager, but before), you felt so ALONE, a stranger in your home, living with strangers, disconnected, a very distressing and reoccurring feeling. Your mother took that feeling away from you when she coddled and overprotected you (words you used someplace in your thread to describe her behavior toward you). She took that feeling away when she did whatever you wanted. Fast forward, you re-experienced the same childhood ALONE/ estranged feeling with N, and you needed him to take this feeling away from you by doing the same as your mother did: everything you want.”

• I am not saying this is not true but I don’t recall feeling that way, at home. Also that feeling of estrangement doesn’t happen with my other friends, currently I am not able to associate this disconnect with anyone else but N. My other friends, yes I have felt disconnected before, but when I bring it up like “why is it weird right now” they are aware enough to agree and be like idk it is weird tho. When I feel disconnected, my impulse is to just be super honest, to meet at some sort of baseline with the person, and I find that inauthentic people are unable to meet you there, and I don’t think N was very authentic for many reasons. He was not able to have very raw conversations, something I find only two authentic people can have together. He could when we were on vacation sometimes, or out in nature for a couple days, but otherwise he was far away from that raw place that if I tried to be real with him he just blank stared me.

“but you have turned into your father in this way. You took normal behaviors, like a guy not putting the toilet seat down,  as evidence of him not caring for you.”

This is either hard for me to face, or not accurate to me. I was aware, in the moment, that those two things don’t correlate. I could see that assumption trying to come together in my head and I reasoned it out, that is extreme, I would tell myself and move on. That is why a relationship with someone who did not care enough lasted so long, I feel like I may have disregarded too many things out of trying to avoid making correlations that weren’t true, and that is what was the cause of such a tormenting last year. As I came to you here in September, I thought it was all my fault and I was making incorrect correlations, but clearly he was being passive aggressive, so many times I told myself “no, he was probably joking, and I am making assumptions of him not caring about me when it is not true,” just as a victim of gaslighting says to herself. I am open to being wrong about this assessment, but it is just how I feel, and evidence is that I stayed with him that whole last year trying to make myself see that he cared, when I just don’t think he actually cared that much and instead knew how to act like he did.

” Fast forward, you re-experienced the same childhood ALONE/ estranged feeling with N, and you needed him to take this feeling away from you by doing the same as your mother did: everything you want.”

I just don’t think this accidentally happens, that I would think I deserve everything I want, without even knowing it, especially knowing that I did not deserve everything I wanted like a spoiled little girl. I would not want someone to do everything I wanted, that would be such a fake relationship, I witnessed my grandma doing this for my mom and I thought it was gross. I did not/ and do not want to be this way so badly that I don’t think it happened without me knowing it, and if it did I know less about myself then I thought I did.

“– You are someone ALONE (a dark room) who needs to be seen as worthy of connection/ worthy of not being alone (turning on a light). Problem is that you associate the light with everything you want being done by the one who supposedly loves you.. because that’s the kind of love you experienced as a child.”

But I don’t want the love I received as a child, my moms over coddling makes me uncomfortable and my dads lack of it also makes me uncomfortable.  I am alone in a dark room, and something I learned through speaking with you is it is Seaturtle’s job to turn on that light so hatch can see herself. I associate light with seeing that I am an authentic person, a strong and witty/creative person (as my dad said I wasn’t), seen by myself and hopefully by my one life partner, the one person in the world that admires me for me. I just feel like N did not see me very deeply, he saw a square and fell in love with the square and moved on with his life, rather than see I am actually a pantagon, he missed a whole side but he was ok with that and I wasn’t. I just believe my real lifetime partner will see those things, I don’t want them to do everything I want. Infact, if someone sees who I am, I would likely stay with them through them doing many things I don’t like, because of how hard it was to find a man who saw me. Leave the toilet seat up every day, and be late as long as when you do see me, you laugh with me and we find similar things cool and see eachothers taste and respect eacohthers perspectives and goals.

“– Your internal torment is the ALONE, disconnected emotional experience of childhood. An experience you tried to change as a teenager, when living with your father, by hyper vigilantly fulfilling his unrealistic expectations from you. You tried to connect with him in this way, it was the expression of your love for him.. to do all that he wanted.”

Exactly

“He was in a difficult situation with you, wanting to please you on one hand (this is his brand of love: people pleasing, seems to me), passive-aggressively rebelling, on the other, responding to .. your unrealistic expectations in ways that were not emotionally honest. “

Yes exactly. I am sure some of my expectations were unrealistic, but I was open to being told that, when he explained to me that him talking with his roommate after dark, while I slept alone was too much to ask for, I stopped asking for it. I spoke to you, and I took my stuffed animal and pretended it was hatch, saying everything was ok, he loves me and this was not about me at all, I loved me too and that is all that mattered, and I went to sleep. My expectations were unrealistic for him. Expecting him to express why he was passive aggressive, was my expectation but he was incapable.

“overall, did not bring out the best in each other.”

Agreed. I literally told him this two nights before the breakup, at that dinner that I almost ended things but after asking to leave the restaurant, as he typically liked to “move” when in a confrontational conversation. In the car he says he has been told by his other friends that he doesn’t know how he comes across, and my empathy kicked in, I felt bad for him and said it was ok. Next day realized he literally didn’t take ownership still.

“If only the two of you- separately- could redefine LOVE: what is love?, as the song says…?”

Exactly, I feel this way. When I texted him part of me wanted to hear from someone who was willing to do this, but that was wishful thinking. I would be. I have had the song “I wanna know what love iss…”; haha

Seaturtle

Dear Anita,

“as the week went on you became aware of a part of your motivation a few days before”

• yes, I wonder if I can speed up this awareness. “Retroactive awareness”

“he wasn’t able to give you more, and you weren’t able to stop wanting more.”

• wow this should be the quote of our relationship

“he wasn’t able to regard the things you told him in the ways you wanted him to. He fought for your love in the ways he was able.”

• why wasn’t he able to? I guess it is just his limitations due to how he grew up.

“we’re all on the spectrum/ continuum of each and every personality disorder, even when we don’t fit a diagnosis.”

• this feels true to me, but I also think some people stay more still than others. That is that some people have a wider ranger of emotions than others, while others are stuck to one end/polar opposite. And unfortunately in our society the emotionless side of the spectrum, is more acceptable and even desired. Desired by people like F and N, they are proud of the Teflon.

“During all the years that I fit the BPD diagnosis, I very much cared about being authentic, I very much wanted to be authentic, it was very, very important to me. But I was too afraid to be authentic around others most of the time because my so effectively shamed my authenticity. I was so out of practice,  didn’t even know how. I wasn’t able.”

• I relate to it being important to me right now. You were afraid to be authentic “because my so effectively shamed my authenticity,” can you explain this sentence more, what do you mean by “so”?

“The book you mentioned recently that you want to write, must be titled USEEN.”

• wow I really like this!!

“Unseen and Alone are synonymous.”

• interesting

“N awakened your desire to be seen”

• wow this is poetic, yes.
• Why did N awaken this in me?
• Edit: I typed this whole post last night but wanted to reas it fresh in the morning to make sure it still aligned with my morning fresh third eye. I will make it known when I am adding something new this morning like right now. I woke up and went on a couple mile walk this morning, recognizing new beauty around me. I woke up feeling angry unfortunately, it went from peaceful wake up, to suddenly realizing I needed to mourn my lost snow gear. I know they are superficial things, but man was it hard to find shoes that fit just right and a snowboard I actually liked the look of, even my goggles and jacket, they all took me a few years to collect. Angry he really just isn’t giving me my things back. I knew I didn’t want my day to be that way so I went on a walk and listened to the Harvard commencement speech by Steve Jobs, and I took from it the beauty in new beginnings. I recognize that two years with N, feels like a lot of time and what was the point? One major point is this, recognizing my need to be seen by a significant other, before N I didn’t realize I wanted that, or what it even meant to me.

“it is amazing to me how much work it takes to SEE certain other people, like me trying to see you.”

• this is an interesting observation. It makes me want to try to SEE somebody else.. maybe you?
• Edit: I wonder if everyone is complex or others are more simple, I suspect this is true but wouldn’t it be a superiority complex to claim that I am more complex than some others?

“this particular seeing occurred to me a day or two ago, as in a passing thought), that it is N, in his stark Unseeing of you, who triggered your overcompensating, narcissistic like reaction.”

• wow so when I feel unseen I lean more narcissistic on the spectrum. And dating N made me recognize I was overcompensating for something, and it was that I felt unseen. That’s a lot to take in. Why did it take him to trigger that?
• Edit: “when I feel unseen I lean more narcissistic on the spectrum.” Today as I read this sentence I understand it more. Maybe (but leaving room for adjustment due to my retroactive awareness) if I feel seen, I am so driven to see the other person back. In general I want to make people feel seen, but in a relationship I feel it is a little different. In a relationship you spend so much time together you will inevitably see more than others do, well hopefully. So in a relationship if I feel they are “continuing” to see me, then I return this, energized by them seeing me, I put that energy back towards them. But, like with N, if they stop giving me their energy of trying to see me, I don’t have the spare energy to see them anymore, instead I must see myself, and this is where the narcissistic behaviors can enter. Slowly, my priority narrows down to only myself, and their feelings become less important, just as during the breakup I had to prioritize my feelings and end things “coldly” and I had to disregard his feelings. Of course I am human and can’t completely do this, can’t completely disregard his feelings but I can just enough so that mine win.

“– and I am open to having been wrong in some of my assessments of you. And of him.”

• I guess if we weren’t open to these things we’d be stunting ourselves and we both clearly have a similar desire to be better every day.

“I think, at this point (and I may be wrong), that he cared for you as much as he was ABLE to care for you.”

• that is the same sense I was getting. That he’d reached his max of how much he was able to care for me and I was very unsatisfied with that, and as hard as he was to give up, i insinctually knew that there was better out there. But at the same time accepting that if there wasn’t better then I’d still rather be single than with him.
• A major realization for me to end things was asking myself “if the world ended and you had to spend the rest of your days in a room with this person, would you choose them to be your one person there?” And my answer was no. I couldn’t see us, just two souls, vibing together. I’d rather be with my little sister than him for the rest of time, and shouldn’t the answer to that be your one lifetime partner that you are choosing?
• I’m so curious about your partner and the type of relationship you have
• Edit: this is powerful here, “I’d rather be single than with him.” Powerful and true, although the transition from relationship to single is very hard.

“I feel empathy for you for needing what you needed from N, and empathy for him for not being able to deliver.”

• I feel empathy for him not being able to deliver too. I was rooting for him. But he reached his max of how much he could care for me. As I wanted him to be my person, I also wanted to be his. Even now I find myself sad that I couldn’t be what he needed. I worry that he feels like “people always leave” and that I contributed to that fear. he’s the youngest so he watched all of his siblings leave, then his dad leaves him alone as a kid for a random amount of time, and his mom leaves him emotionally. I feel guilty that I couldn’t be the love he needed in his life.
• But I know that I could of been what he needed, but the problem is i had more to give than what he needed. I had so much love to give and I don’t think he cared much for those things I did for him.
• Edit: I hope to find someone who sees all the love that I am directing towards them, and that i can see their love as well. Which I believe I will see their love, I know I have that ability but I also think there’s some compatibility of some sort that enters the equation. By Compatibility, I am not sure if it has to do with personality or just an equal desire to be your best selves.

“no, it’s me who knew less about you than I thought I did. Sincerely, it takes so much work, and humility, and persistence, and putting aside my persona biases, experiences, etc., to get to know a person as .. complex as you”

• one day I wanna hear more about what it was like to do what you are doing. I thank you, because I need this, someone who cares to see me as much as they can. And you are that person right now (heart emoji, and leaf emoji because this feels very natural).

• “complex.” I am thinking about this word right now, how did I get this way and is everyone on the planet on a spectrum from a simple to complex?

“what I am in touch with this evening, is how difficult it is, has been for me,  to SEE you as you are.”

• You know what, at least a silver lining of being “unseen” is that I am familiar enough with the feeling that I just don’t expect people to see me. I’ve accepted there are places in my head I will always be alone, but I’ve also learned that some people see you better than others. I feel more seen by my roommate than I did by N.
• Edit: I feel more seen by you than N, to an extreme degree.

“It’s mostly the personal biases, the personal childhood experiences that create one’s vision of another.”

• so you can still see your childhood affecting who you are now?
• Edit: Its amazing how many people there are in the world with their own bias of everything. I wonder what the world reads like, or what people really look like from zero bias. Maybe it is very boring and bland, or maybe it is blissful. No pain but no joy.

“Leave the toilet seat up every day, and be late as long a… you do see me“- a real lifetime partner is possible for you to find and have a lifetime with.”

• this is a meaningful two sentences. (Feeling good and hopeful inside emoji)

“Give him time though.. the task of seeing a complex, fascinating person like you is not easy, says I.”

• haha yes I can do this (: you know what though with N, I got to a point where I couldn’t see him seeing any more of my complexities. Wanting to or seeing the value in it. I am still thinking back to that sentence you paraphrased “Leave the toilet seat up every day, and be late as long a… you do see me.” I don’t think it was the small things that pushed me away, it was pretty deep.

“most people would have disappeared from their forum after told certain things, after told certain things that were the wrong understandings, but you are back here, remarkable, I am humbled.”

• I have been called out and feel it was untrue many times in my life, hence being unseen most of it. However with you many things you notice about me feel true and are helping me understand myself faster.
• Edit: And if they don’t feel true, I still can understand how you concluded what you did, which challenges me to really ask myself if it’s true for myself. If I feel humbled it is usually true. But if I feel unseen, it sends me to more thoughts trying to figure out why.

“love takes a lot of work when it comes to a complex person such as you, a Seaturtle with an open third eye and an active crown chakra. It takes me opening mine and activating my crown chakra to understand.”

• if I 100% believe my person is out there for this lifetime then I wonder what they’re doing right now and when I will hear about it (;

“add distilled water to your tears, so that your sea turtle’s tears don’t irritate your human eyes.”

• i literally have distilled water here because I used it for my diffusers for a while so I will do this now hahaha

“In case you cry or laugh too hard.”

• you’re funny (laugh crying emoji)

-You know what, I know you said you don’t watch a lot of tv, and I still wonder how. But have you ever watched like standup comedy on Netflix? Those got me through quarantine times. I literally knew I was lacking serotonin and literally watched standup on purpose to laugh, so my brain would perk up.

Edit: I like how certain comedians, like John Mulaney and Taylor Tomlinson, to name a couple, point out real human flaws and question what is going on here on this earth. They reveal human complexities and do it in a relatable and funny way.

Seaturtle