Home→Forums→Share Your Truth→Old Journal- things that pierce the human heart
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anita.
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February 7, 2025 at 1:22 pm #442707
Peter
Participantspell check uggg – Its a positive that were noticing.
February 7, 2025 at 2:58 pm #442712anita
ParticipantDear Peter:
I am looking forward to reading and replying to you Sat morning 🌄
Anita
February 8, 2025 at 11:44 am #442722anita
ParticipantDear Peter:
“I was thinking that we were straying into ‘fix it’ mode, both for our own reasons”- it’s difficult for me to quietly listen and reflect. It is easy for me to jump into “fix it” mode.
If I learn (in real-life and online) to listen attentively without interrupting or jumping in to offer solutions, I may create a safe space for the other person to clarify their own thoughts and feelings. Often, speaking aloud (or typing away) helps people process and make sense of their experiences. Also, when people feel listened to, they are more likely to open up more and share their true thoughts and feelings.
This can lead to more honest and open communication, showing that I respect another person’s perspective and am genuinely interested in understanding their point of view. This way, I can offer more thoughtful and effective solutions if and when the time is right. (easier said than done, of course).
How do you feel about this? Do you think it would be helpful for us to focus more on sharing and understanding each other’s perspectives, rather than trying to fix issues? I’m open to exploring different ways of engaging in our conversations.
“I have noted that you have a method you use to process the information people post and how you move from the head to the heart. Like recognizes like, so I also noted when the head stuff was being thrown up to protect the heart. In essence, we have been mirroring and suspect sometimes triggering protective habits. Its a possessive that were noticing. Maybe we have grown some?”-
– Thank you for noting my method of processing information and moving from the head to the heart. It’s interesting how we mirror each other’s approaches. I think you’re right that recognizing these patterns is a sign of growth.
I’m curious to explore more about how we can continue to support each other in further connecting to the heart space in our conversations.
“A theme within your past few posts was the reminder to treat our selves with kindness, patience, understanding, self-acceptance… I noticed a tendency withing to push the words away… What does Loving one’s Life look like?… Closing eyes… what do I feel when asked to repeat – I love my life? Not anger, not shame, a kind of detachment…”-
– I was not treated with kindness, patience, understanding and acceptance by my mother (she was pretty much a single parent) growing up. In other words, I was not loved. Therefore, I was not given the opportunity to love myself, that is, to treat myself with kindness, patience, etc. I grew up- other than times of relief, mostly in the context of day dreaming- suffering, as well as detached whenever, wherever possible.
Growing up emotionally hurting led to a need to detach.
It is only recently that I felt self-acceptance, self-compassion, etc. It amazes me that I don’t remember feeling these for over half a century.
I had no idea that it’s possible to feel these things. It’s like I never tasted a bbbamm cake because a bbbamm cake does not exist.
“Did Frodo love his life? (I see heroes of the book looking back at me annoyed…)”- Regarding Frodo and those annoyed book heroes, your mention gave me a good chuckle! I am definitely not annoyed with you, and I’m open to not being annoyed with myself. After all, annoyance is not an ingredient in a bbbamm cake!
anita
February 8, 2025 at 11:50 am #442723anita
ParticipantDear Peter: I wanted to add that I remember that you shared that you stay away from the computer on weekends. Therefore, I do not expect you to read and reply to me this Sat or Sun. I hope that you are having a restful weekend!
anita
February 10, 2025 at 7:46 am #442741Peter
ParticipantHi Anita
Feeling under the weather today so will be slow in my response
I’d be interested in your relationship to the word Love.
February 10, 2025 at 12:46 pm #442751anita
ParticipantDear Peter:
I’m sorry to read you’re not feeling well today. Take your time with your responses— no rush.
My relationship to the word Love has been one of suspicion and distrust. I have had great difficulty saying the word in the language I grew up with ever since I remember myself. So much so, that I hardly ever said it, and when I did, it felt acutely uncomfortable each and every time (with one exception, if I remember correctly, and that was that one time when I happened to ingest some heavy-duty narcotic many years ago).
Actually, I have the same difficulty saying it in English as well- to people from my country of origin.
I remember my mother expressing affection toward me at times. I remember in my 20s riding in a taxy with her on the way to the airport where I was to fly to the U.S. while she stayed behind. She took my hand in hers and caressed my hand. This was one of the most acutely uncomfortable experiences in my life, and very memorable. I was crawling out of my skin the whole time, trying to remove myself from her touch. I didn’t want to be rude, so I remained unmoved, but my insides were moving away from her big time.
I always wanted to be away from her, ever since I remember myself.
I associated Love (the word and the concept) with her, and so, Love and Hurt were one and the same, deeply intertwined and indistinguishable. Love was given this definition by the one abusing me: “To Love you is to Hurt You”. Later in my life, when as an adult, I truly loved a child I happened to spend a lot time with, I was afraid to hurt him. Love and Hurt deeply intertwined in my mind.
Love without hurt is like the bbbamm cake, a cake that doesn’t exist. Didn’t exist.
I became detached emotionally as a defense mechanism, creating distance between me and others so to protect myself against Hurt-Love. I approached people and relationships with caution, alert to real, and often only imagined signs of manipulation and dishonesty.
The other day, a person I know expressed appreciation and affection for me (not physically). It was precious on one hand, uniquely felt, but on the other hand, I anxiously wondered when that appreciation and affection will turn into condemnation and hate.
My relationship to the word Love was the same as my relationship to the word Hate: stay away from it! Don’t trust it and don’t give in to feeling it for another because it will harm them!
Take care and rest up, Peter. Looking forward to continuing our conversation when you’re feeling better.
anita
February 12, 2025 at 2:36 pm #442811Peter
ParticipantHi Anita
Still not feeling great and been trying to put some thoughts together about the apparent contradiction of someone who is obviously a loving and compassionate person having such a troubled relationship to the word Love?
I think our culture makes it difficult to have a good relationship to the word Love. One only has to watch a hallmark movie where the movement of misunderstanding that nearly ends the relationship, almost always a small thing, is overcome to end happily ever after. Well till the next misunderstanding. The characters so easily thrown off balance one wonders if any of the relationships last. Movies of Romance but not love.
I see that a way back I wrote in my journal that I was glad that the ask was that we ‘love our neighbor as ourselves’ and that the ask was not that we had to ‘Like our neighbor’ as ourselves. A intuition that Loving someone was possible even when not liking them or ending a relationship.
Of course, the ask that we ‘love our neighbor as ourselves’ begs the question as to how we love yourselves. I think your notion of self-acceptance, self-compassion, do no harm…. applies. We love others with acceptance, hold them with compassion and desire them no harm, while holding them accountable for them. If our actions good or bad have no accountability then they can’t matter and that can’t be Love. (Love defined in this way does not require one to maintain a relationship. The loving and compassionate action may require that a relationship end.)
I’ve posted these thoughts before… The contradiction of having a troubled relationship with the word Love seems to be a language issue of mixed messages where we mistake the map (the words) for the territory…. even as we walk the territory having thrown the map away.
I’m going to leave it here for now… I am about to jump into the deep end to suggest that Love as Life can’t be experienced without suffering. That Love in non-dual and has no opposite… It is and we are that.
As I pondered the contradiction I was reminded of Joni Mitchels song/poem – Both Sides Now:
Rows and floes of angel hair
And ice cream castles in the air
And feather canyons everywhere
Looked at clouds that way…But now they only block the sun
They rain and they snow on everyone
So many things I would have done
But clouds got in my way
I’ve looked at clouds from both sides now
From up and down and still somehow
It’s cloud illusions I recall
I really don’t know clouds at all…Moons and Junes and Ferris wheels
The dizzy dancing way that you feel
As every fairy tale comes real
I’ve looked at love that wayBut now it’s just another show
And you leave ’em laughing when you go
And if you care, don’t let them know
Don’t give yourself away
I’ve looked at love from both sides now
From give and take and still somehow
It’s love’s illusions that I recall
I really don’t know love
I really don’t know love at all…Tears and fears and feeling proud
To say, “I love you, ” right out loud
Dreams and schemes and circus crowds
I’ve looked at life that wayOh, but now old friends, they’re acting strange
And they shake their heads and they tell me that I’ve changed
Well, something’s lost, but something’s gained
In living every day
I’ve looked at life from both sides now
From win and lose and still somehow
It’s life’s illusions I recall
I really don’t know life at allIt’s life’s illusions that I recall
I really don’t know life
I really don’t know life at allFebruary 12, 2025 at 2:46 pm #442812anita
ParticipantDear Peter:
I hope that you feel better very soon! I will need a hopefully rested and refreshed Thurs morning brain to reply further, but for now, in regard to “the apparent contradiction of someone who is obviously a loving and compassionate person having such a troubled relationship to the word Love?”-
– Today, I am not the same person I was yesterday (yesterday being more than half a century in Temporal terms). It takes resisting the strong inclination to remain the same, and relaxing, opening to change. Not an easy task, or in Eternal terms, not a task at all.
Thank you for the sentiment! I’ll be back to you tomorrow and hope you rest and heal.
anita
February 13, 2025 at 4:28 am #442813Alessa
ParticipantHi Peter
I hope you feel better soon.
Love is an interesting one. I feel like a lot of people treat love as conditional these days. As you say, it is a cultural thing.
However, I do feel like unconditional love is really important and very healing.
Yes, I would suggest that being kind to people no matter how they treat you is important. Even if someone treats you poorly. I feel like it is a matter of principle – a desire not to compromise my values. Not to mention, very few problems are truly serious.
What do you think holding someone accountable means?
“To err is human.”
Everyone has flaws, but I think it is important to accept people as uniquely flawed individuals. It is impossible to get through life unscathed and we all bear the scars that come with that.
The trick is balancing these things whilst protecting ourselves and our loved ones whilst acknowledging that there is only so much that can be done as individuals.
February 13, 2025 at 10:10 am #442828anita
ParticipantDear Peter:
“The contradiction of having a troubled relationship with the word Love seems to be a language issue of mixed messages where we mistake the map (the words) for the territory… even as we walk the territory having thrown the map away.”-
– The word “Love” in adult relationships, particularly romantic, carries mixed messages and too often is mistaken for something it is not. When one or both partners have significant unresolved issues from childhood, they try to resolve these issues in the context of the romantic relationship, for example: projecting an unloving parent into the romantic partner and trying to earn his/ her love.
In romantic love, several illusions and cognitive biases often come into play:
1. Idealization: People in love seeing their partners as perfect or overlooking their flaws, leading to unrealistic expectations and disappointment when reality doesn’t match the idealized image.
2. The Halo Effect: This cognitive bias causes people to assume that because someone is good in one area, they must be good in other areas as well, leading to an inaccurate perception of the partner.
3. Confirmation Bias: This is the tendency to notice the information that fits with our preconceptions, and ignoring what doesn’t fit, sometimes leading to dismissing or ignoring any red flags.
4. Inaccurate Projection: People projecting their own desires and qualities onto their partners, leading to an illusion of compatibility rather than seeing them as they truly are. This is sometimes referred to as “rose-colored glasses,” seeing the partner as who we wish him/ her to be, not as he or she truly is.
6. Recency Effect: The tendency to emphasize recent events and “forget” earlier ones, creating an illusion of improvement or change.
“If our actions good or bad have no accountability then they can’t matter and that can’t be Love. (Love defined in this way does not require one to maintain a relationship. The loving and compassionate action may require that a relationship end.)”-
– Accountability means being responsible for one’s actions and accepting the consequences, whether positive or negative. When actions lack accountability, they are performed without consideration of their consequences or impact on ourselves and on others. Such actions are often seen as careless, irresponsible, or self-serving.
When our actions are accountable, they (our actions) carry weight and significance, showing that we care about the effects of our behavior on another person.
Accountability allows individuals to recognize mistakes, apologize, and make amends. This process promotes personal growth and healing within the relationship, building trust ad respect, fostering a deeper connection and understanding between partners.
Without accountability, conflicts remain unresolved. Issues are swept under the rug, and the underlying problems persist, causing ongoing tension and dissatisfaction in the relationship.
Genuine love requires depth and honesty, which can only be achieved when both partners take responsibility for their actions and their impact. In essence, accountability transforms actions into meaningful expressions of love and commitment.
In situations where a relationship is unhealthy or unfulfilling, ending a relationship can be the most loving and compassionate choice, as the ending of it prioritizes the well-being of both individuals.
“Both Sides, Now” (I sang it to myself as I was reading the words) highlights the contrast between idealistic views and the realities of life and love.
“I really don’t know love at all”- I used to think that loving one person requires that I don’t love another person (or love another person less), as if love (the feeling + accountable actions) needs to be exclusive by definition, not only in romantic relationships, but in every other kind of interaction and relationship. I now think-feel-know that every person matters equally, and love transcends exclusivity: loving one person deeply does not diminish the love I can feel for others. Instead, the more people I love deeply, the greater the love each individual receives from me. A paradox perhaps? A move from the Temporal to the Eternal?
anita
February 13, 2025 at 11:48 am #442831Peter
ParticipantHi Anita
“What do you think holding someone accountable means”?
If someone broke my trust and stole from me: accountability might mean I ask for the key to my house back and end the relationship. I believe this can be done as an act of love that does not need to be fueled by of anger or the rest of the drama we tend to create. Unless it’s what we need in the moment… but are a least a little conscious we’re doing so.
My my experience of karma isn’t about justice or any such measurement but a natural consequence of action. Karma may not feel like love but as the temporal experience of an Eternal realty I think it is.
“To love means to embrace and at the same time to withstand many endings, and many many beginnings—all in the same relationship.” – Clarissa Pinkola Estés
I found that a lot of people mistake unconditional love as having to include unconditional allowing. I view accountability and responsibly an intimately connected to the experience of love. We want what we do and who we are to matter and for something to matter we get to be accountable and responsible. If one loves one will also suffer. Which feels wrong yet Love without suffering would have no ‘wight’, no meaning or purpose.
Jung talked about relationships being the crucible where we discover ourselves as part of the individuation process. Everything we experience is relational whether it is with ourselves, others, nature, or even language. The crucible used in alchemy is where all the stuff and things are added, mixed and boiled. A process to remove the impurities until what is left has been purified (gold). As a psychological process such turning into gold is suffering yet one might argue than that only a wounded heart can be transformed into a pure heart.
It was my thought that because we tend to mistake the ‘map for the territory’, which may explain the tendency towards conditional love, that a healthy relationship to the word Love is needed. It’s also why I suspect Love is of the Eternal non-duality experience. It is in Loves non-duality that it can be unconditional.
February 13, 2025 at 12:00 pm #442832Peter
ParticipantHi Anita
I missed your second post: “I now think-feel-know that every person matters equally, and love transcends exclusivity: loving one person deeply does not diminish the love I can feel for others. Instead, the more people I love deeply, the greater the love each individual receives from me. A paradox perhaps? A move from the Temporal to the Eternal?”
I like that and feel it is so.
Sitting in contemplation of the possibility that Love has no opposite. Like the sun that does not rise or set, Love is, and we are, that. That Life exists at all, and that Life is aware that it is Life, in all its wonders and horrors, is Love. That Life embrace of growth and awareness must also embrace suffering, is Love.
We have been exploring the notion of the Eternal. The Eternal from which all arise and returns. The experience where motion returns to stillness, measuring labeling judging returns to silence and Life in all its messiness, joys and sufferings returns to Love. The Temporal experience in relationship with the Eternal. The Eternal (non-duality) not being a measurement having no opposites suggesting that stillness, silence and Love are also not measurements and so have no opposites.
Can such a contemplation on Love restore the relationship to the word Love. Creating the space to say Yes to Life as it is. I think it can. We aren’t asked or required to Like what we experience nor are we asked or required to fix such experiences. Seeing the experience of the Eternal as Love from which all things, all Life, arise and return. Compassion and self-acceptance naturally arise as a gift to ourselves that we can than ‘love others as ourselves’ as they our ourselves.
February 13, 2025 at 12:36 pm #442833anita
ParticipantDear Peter:
I am looking forward to read and reply to you Friday morning, which will be Valentine Day, an appropriate day to discuss love.. although it’s more of a day dedicated to reinforcing illusions about love and financially profit from these illusions. Regardless, I’ll be back to you tomorrow.
anita
February 13, 2025 at 2:20 pm #442836Alessa
ParticipantHi Peter
Your example makes sense to me. I think of these things in that way too.
It would be ideal in relationships for those things to occur all of the time, but sometimes they don’t.
An apt quote! I like it. 😊
Yes, unconditional allowing can be dangerous. I feel like that happens as a result of depression and lack of self-love, rather than unconditional love though.
I feel like change is an important factor in love. People change over time, circumstances change and relationships change as a result. Being flexible is necessary to adapt to the changes.
We want what we do and who we are to matter.
That is a nice way to put it. 😊
My thoughts are that kindness and understanding are important. Personally, I don’t care so much about accountability or responsibility anymore. All things just boil down to kindness for me.
February 14, 2025 at 11:52 am #442862anita
ParticipantDear Peter:
* To prevent confusion, I want to note that in the first of your two recent post, which you addressed to me, you responded to the content of a post submitted by a different member, Alyssa, who also submitted the most recent post right above.
“If someone broke my trust and stole from me: accountability might mean I ask for the key to my house back and end the relationship. I believe this can be done as an act of love that does not need to be fueled by of anger or the rest of the drama we tend to create. Unless it’s what we need in the moment… but are a least a little conscious we’re doing so”-
– What a refreshing thought: Accountability as an Act of Love. Accountability doesn’t need to be driven by anger or dramatic confrontations. Instead, it can be a measured and thoughtful response, holding someone accountable for their actions in a loving and respectful way.
“My experience of karma isn’t about justice or any such measurement but a natural consequence of action. Karma may not feel like love but as the temporal experience of an Eternal realty I think it is”-
– Karma, the natural outcome of one’s actions, does not always feel like love (pleasant, comforting), nonetheless, they are part of the Temporal experience that reflects the Eternal reality: a deeper, timeless reality that transcends the temporal world.
“I found that a lot of people mistake unconditional love as having to include unconditional allowing…”- People often confuse unconditional love with the idea that they should accept and tolerate all behaviors without holding the other person accountable. While unconditional love means caring for someone deeply, it doesn’t mean accepting harmful or disrespectful behavior. Accountability and responsibility are integral to the experience of love. By holding ourselves and others accountable, we ensure that our actions matter and have significance.
“Jung talked about relationships being the crucible where we discover ourselves..”- Love is a transformative power in the individuation process: relational experiences, including suffering, can purify and transform the self, allowing for personal growth and the potential to develop a pure and compassionate heart.
“It was my thought that because we tend to mistake the ‘map for the territory’…”- There is a need for a healthy understanding and relationship with the word “Love.” This means recognizing and experiencing love in its true, Eternal form (the territory), rather than through the distorted lens of our Temporal expectations and conditions (the map).
“Sitting in contemplation of the possibility that Love has no opposite…”- Unlike other emotions that have clear opposites (e.g., happiness vs. sadness), love is a fundamental and all-encompassing force that exists beyond duality. The sun is perceived to rise and set, but reality is that it simply exists. Similarly, love exists as a constant presence (Eternal reality, the territory), independent of our perceptions and experiences (Temporal perception and interpretations of reality, the map).
“We have been exploring the notion of the Eternal. The Eternal from which all arise and returns…stillness, silence and Love are also not measurements and so have no opposites… Compassion and self-acceptance naturally arise as a gift to ourselves that we can than ‘love others as ourselves’ as they our ourselves.”-
– Beautifully articulated! Reading your words, I feel more comfortable facing the challenges of this life, a life so full of difficulties and suffering. It makes me look forward to more and more moments of stillness, silence and love in this Temporal world, and to the return to stillness, silene and love in the Eternal reality. Thank you Peter!
And I hope you are feeling better…?
anita
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