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  • #434526
    Helcat
    Participant

    Hi Tommy

    Yes, it is a bit too much information for me too. 😂

    I am simple too. 😊 I don’t think that it is a bad thing. Everyone has their own karma and journey. It is simply not part of mine.

    Haha I enjoyed that story, thank you for sharing. It was not his Dharma to stay at the temple for the night. 😂

    Yes, and as well as individual perspective there is the whole. The truth of the situation. Sometimes the truth is invisible to us. I think that things often happen how they are meant to, even when difficult things happen.

    Love and best wishes! ❤️🙏

    #434609
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi Tommy

    I’ve been pondering what you wrote – “Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.”

    Being a Zen Koan I suspect were not to answer it but sit in it. The first thing I notice is the same frustration, what’s the point. A strong indication that I’m sitting in the temporal measuring mind and that the desire for ‘enlightenment’ was/is a quest to avoid pain cover up fear and anxiety.

    Is it possible to sit in the Koan without desire without a goal or even answers?
    Attending completely, listening with all your heart, with all your brain, with all your senses? If you are so completely attending there is nothing more. That is meditation.” – Krishnamurti

    Meditation isn’t practice, isn’t concentration, isn’t focus, isn’t silence, isn’t stillness, isn’t passive, isn’t a goal… all such thoughts and measuring restrict attending?

    There is something beyond words, beyond all thought which time has not touched, which is the origin of all things. This is the origin of all things and therefore the most sacred, most holy, timeless.” – Krishnamurti

    Sitting in the Koan, all things are an arising from and a return to… movement arising from and returning to stillness, language and measurement/judgment arising from and returning to silence, time arising and returning to the eternal now… Stillness, silence, eternity not a something to attain, but attend to…

    Movement creates Life, Stillness Love… to be still yet still moving that is everything.

    In the temporal measuring sphere of the left side of the brain we do not have words for something that is both stillness and movement, time and eternal (eternal that is not a measurement of time). As we drift to the right side of the brain, eyes ‘see’ the stillness in movement, movement in stillness… ears ‘hear’ the silence in language/thought/measurement… Self senses the eternal in the temporal, temporal in the enteral…

    We return… chop wood, carry water… same temporal needs, but not the same doings…  Bitter sweet, the heart opens?

    These are just words, but if you live without fear, if you have understood knowledge, you have gone beyond sorrow, therefore you have this quality of love and compassion with its intelligence, and having laid the foundation then meditation is something marvelous, something that thought can never understand. Then only there is that which is timeless, most holy.” – Krishnamurti

    Can we live without fear when it has defined our experience? Without such fear what role does belief, desire, right practice, knowledge, guru’s…. have? Do our beliefs, goals and desires reenforcing fear?

    In the eternal fear has nowhere to take root…  The question arises Do we dare to ‘see’ Life as it Is? Is it possible to answer Yes without belief? Compassion bitter sweet…

    Chop wood, carry water, engage in life… I don’t know Tommy I have my moments of  staring into space unable to sleep.

    I try to notice when I’m in my temporal, measuring judging, dualistic self and then remind myself of the return from which all arose, even if for only a moment. (LOL till I ‘measure’ the moment as a measurement of time, sending me right back into it. no wonder the Buddha laughs)

    Allan Watts viewed the temporal sphere of experience as a playground (game) for the self/ego and eternal Home. Perhaps the trick is the realization that the two arn’t separate states of being.

     

    #434619
    Tommy
    Participant

    Oh, wow, so much, … BS. No not the right word. You seem to be extremely cerebral. Chop wood carry water is simple. There is nothing special about enlightenment. Before chop wood carry water. Normal parts of life. After chop wood carry water. Basic part of life. Realizing that there a part of me that is exactly like that part in you. That it permeates the universe. Life remains the same. What is there to experience is natural and unchanging.. Viewing life thru someone else’s eyes? Temporal, measuring, ego? Drop this monkey mind and push forward onto the truth. Good luck.

    #434622
    Peter
    Participant

    LOL Tommy.

    Perhaps why language fads to silence as it should.

    Seeking stillness while on a planet spinning through space a fools game.  yet when Stillness isn’t a measurement

    The mountain still a mountain “seen” for the first time, not a only or just

    #434625
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Peter:

    As I sit in bed, 2nd day of Covid, can’t go out and about like I do every day, can’t chop wood and carry water, can’t do my usual daily walk, having moments of almost panic, claustrophobic, as in: I CAN”T GO OUT? FOR HOW LONG? HOW MANY DAYS??? AND NIGHTS???!!!

    In this state of mind, I read your earlier post today and find comfort in it. It’s my temporal measuring mind that is panicking. Enlightenment would be something like this then: Before enlightenment, sick with Covid and panicking. After enlightenment, sick with Covid but calm.

    As I sit here perspiring, belly uncomfortable, feeling hot, listening to the birds outside, seeing the sun through the curtains, hearing the wind now going through the leaves: I am not lost in thought; I am attending completely: this is meditation.

    There is indeed something beyond words, beyond all thought.. timeless… a something not to attain, but to attend to.

    The question arises Do we dare to ‘see’ Life as it Is?“- yes, I dare to see Stillness that’s beyond Movement; Eternity beyond Time; and Acceptance and Love beyond Judgment and Hate.

    Thank you, Peter!

    anita

     

    #434643
    Helcat
    Participant

    Talking about enlightenment. I have heard some things about it.

    There are multiple stages to it. It involves physical energy cultivation practices. Masters often die once they achieve it. Often royalty or monks. It takes many lifetimes. Ultimately, choosing to end the cycle of rebirth.

    These things don’t interest me because they are dictated by karma. A lot of texts are not originally meant for our understanding.

    Good health is required for physical energy cultivation and fitness is required for good health. Conversely, energy cultivation practices are good for health.

    Calmness might be seen as a state of mind but according to TCM calmness is a sign of good health and correct organ function. Not being calm is a sign of poor health and organ dysfunction. Calmness is needed for energy cultivation practices as it affects qi in various ways.

    There are many kinds of meditation which do different things. I’ve only done two kinds of stillness meditation; one to build high quality qi, another to let go.

    I hope that you recover quickly from COVID Anita. ❤️

    Love and best wishes! ❤️🙏

    #434644
    Helcat
    Participant

    Oh and I forgot to add. I put this at the top of my message the first time I wrote it. It’s nice to see you around again Peter. I always enjoy your posts. 😊

    #434645
    anita
    Participant

    * Thank you, Helcat!

    #434646
    anita
    Participant

    * I want to add a note about Tommy’s post:

    Oh, wow, so much.. BS. No not the right word. You seem to be extremely cerebral… There is nothing special about enlightenment… Drop this monkey mind”

    – calling Peter’s thoughts and feelings BS? Telling him there is nothing special about what he believes to be special? Telling him to drop his ideas and beliefs?

    And, sneakily, you say BS is not the right word, but you don’t delete the it.

    You call him extremely cerebral: Wel, you Tommy were extremely rude here. Personally, I’ll take extremely cerebral over extremely rude any time of the day or night.

    anita

    #434647
    anita
    Participant

    edit: but you don’t delete the word.

    #434649
    Peter
    Participant

    Thanks Anita you have a wonderful way with words and its helpful to see what I attempt to work through reflected back so succinctly.

    Though I was taken aback by Tommy’s tone for a moment (a old wound of not being seen or understood showed up) I wasn’t offended.

    As we were referencing a Zen Koan, after taking the moment, I had to laugh as ‘BS’ is actually a appropriate reply. A Zen master would have no doubt ‘slapped‘ both of us. If I understand correctly the Koan’s are paradoxical and intentionally frustrating the idea being to break (slap) the hold  of the grasping measuring mind or something…  the imagined Zen Master just slapped me again.  🙂

    Tommy’s mention of monkey mind caused me to pause. My process of ‘sitting in a Koan’ (Paradox, dualism) with free flow of thoughts (slowed down by typing them out) actually calms the monkey as it tends to end in silence. But that’s my process and I see why it might find it ‘to much’.

    #434650
    Peter
    Participant

    Thanks Helcat

    I’ve never been comfortable with the words enlightenment or for that matter the word meditation. Like most westerners the tendency to apply measurements and judgments to the words get in the way.

    I’ve been looking into Krishnamurti life who uses a kind of Socratic method to look past our constructs. He’s not a easy read but I think he would agree with your thoughts on the ‘stages in meditation’

    I’ve been playing around with a slow realization that ‘Stillness’, Calm, ‘Silence’, Eternity… are not measurement’s, are not things to be measured. I find it freeing. Neurologically I suspect these are right brain experiences.

    My mediation a kind of Ying Yang flow between the left and right spheres of the brain.  Carry water chop wood (left side) AND Carry water chop wood (right side)  The Doings are the same but the experience different.

    #434657
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Peter:

    You are welcome and thank you for the compliment!

    an old wound of not being seen or understood showed up“- these forums are not about irritating or opening an old wound. I am glad you weren’t offended, but lots of people don’t have your ability (using the title of your thread) to place a rude comment on a blank canvas before it makes an old wound bleed.

    I don’t criticize other members’ replies to an OP, but took an exception here because of the unmistakenly rude nature of his reply (and his tendency to produce such replies in other threads). My replies aren’t perfect, but way better than in the past, on the empathy front. And so, I hope that he improves his replies by removing the Rude off of them.

    And, Peter, in all the years of reading your posts, I don’t think that there was one incident that you were rude, not even once.

    My process of ‘sitting in a Koan’ (Paradox, dualism) with free flow of thoughts (slowed down by typing them out) actually calms the monkey as it tends to end in silence“- calm down the monkey mind, calm… down… the… monkey.

    anita

    #434665
    Helcat
    Participant

    Hi Peter

    I can see the beauty in a cerebral style, as with any other. We are all different and beautiful in our own unique ways. Yet at the same time similar.

    Krishnamurti is an excellent choice! My husband is a fan of his. I also enjoy Dipa Ma. I’m not sure if you’ve heard of her?

    Ooh I don’t know about right brain and left brain stuff. My brain doesn’t work in a co-ordinated way. It gets confused and mixed up. Just how I’m wired.

    I think that things are hard to understand until experienced. Or at least until there is more awareness.

    People have such different experiences across the world and it is like Alice in Wonderland sometimes. We imagine that our experience is the only one. Other experiences different from ours are like a television show sometimes, abstract.

    I think that esoteric writing can be like that. Reading the Confucian Analects, over the years my understanding changes each time I learn something new I think I actually understand what that means now.

    So I wouldn’t worry about judgement. It evolves as we learn. It sounds like you are experiencing these changes of awareness and understanding too.

    I enjoy Koans, but I don’t have the patience for them. 😂

    It’s good to hear that you weren’t offended. It can be challenging to see through feelings when they get brought up. You handled things well and managed to understand his intent.

    I don’t believe that Tommy meant harm. I know lots of people who speak like that. Rough around the edges, direct and speaking his mind honestly. Some might say a bit too honest. 😂

    Love and best wishes! ❤️🙏

    #434667
    Tommy
    Participant

    [quote quote=434646]* I want to add a note about Tommy’s post: “Oh, wow, so much.. BS. No not the right word. You seem to be extremely cerebral… There is nothing special about enlightenment… Drop this monkey mind”– – calling Peter’s thoughts and feelings BS? Telling him there is nothing special about what he believes to be special? Telling him to drop his ideas and beliefs? And, sneakily, you say BS is not the right word, but you don’t delete the it. You call him extremely cerebral: Wel, you Tommy were extremely rude here. Personally, I’ll take extremely cerebral over extremely rude any time of the day or night. anita[/quote]I am sorry that you read the words but did not understand the intent. Okay, I was rude. I apologize. The post wasn’t meant for you.

    [quote quote=434649]Thanks Anita you have a wonderful way with words and its helpful to see what I attempt to work through reflected back so succinctly. Though I was taken aback by Tommy’s tone for a moment (a old wound of not being seen or understood showed up) I wasn’t offended. As we were referencing a Zen Koan, after taking the moment, I had to laugh as ‘BS’ is actually a appropriate reply. A Zen master would have no doubt ‘slapped‘ both of us. If I understand correctly the Koan’s are paradoxical and intentionally frustrating the idea being to break (slap) the hold of the grasping measuring mind or something… the imagined Zen Master just slapped me again. 🙂 Tommy’s mention of monkey mind caused me to pause. My process of ‘sitting in a Koan’ (Paradox, dualism) with free flow of thoughts (slowed down by typing them out) actually calms the monkey as it tends to end in silence. But that’s my process and I see why it might find it ‘to much’.[/quote]

    You have an amazing understanding. And yes, I was rude. I apologize for my words but not for my intent. And Yes, An old Zen master would have slapped us both. You know more than you let on at first. Namaste.

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