A date with a coworker felt like a bright spot in 2020 (and maybe it was)?

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This topic has 153 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 2 months ago by Tee.

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October 15, 2021 at 12:54 pm #387380
Anonymous
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Dear Ryan:

On September 5 2020, you started your original post in your second thread, Treading water, with (the boldface feature is my addition): “‘You are beyond words the best person that has walked into my life besides my son.” –My ex, September 2018″

On September 10 2020, you started your 9th post in Treading water with: “Hi Anita, ‘You are beyond words. The best person that has walked into my life besides my son.’ -My ex, Sep 30, 2018″.

April 25 2021, in your current thread, you wrote: “I think my issue is more that I feel a sense of guilt/shame when I hurt or disappoint women. It feels as though women see me as something that I may not always be: A good man or a better man than most. I try to live up to their expectancies but often don’t. I’m sure some of it can be traced back to not wanting to disappoint my mother, but I honestly do not know”-

-I do know, if I may say so: a mother is so very powerful in her boy’s (and girl’s) life.. it’s almost criminal, that she has so much power. So much power that when she tells her boy that he is less-than, that he is not good-enough, his lifetime goal becomes to be more-than, better than anyone.. the best!

What if good-enough is indeed good enough (if only you got this message early!), and therefore, being the best .. is not needed.

This is all I have to say and this is my last post in any of your threads, past and future. The reason it is my last post is that I have nothing more to say, neither do I want to say anything more. If you find what I wrote in this very short post meaningful, then it is the best that I can ever say to you.

anita
- This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by .
November 13, 2021 at 9:48 am #388537

Spry_Ry
Participant

Dear TeaK,

Apologies for the delay in replying… Anita’s reply truly shook me. I considered deleting this thread–out of privacy concerns for my ex’s–or just closing/deleting my TB account. It was never my intention to violate their privacy, as I thought that any chance of them finding this thread was slim to none since I did not use my normal email address when registering for this website. While I used an email created specifically for the TB forums, this site felt like a safe space free of judgement. Instead, I feel my writing here comes across, if not unauthentic, questionable and rife with lies. Doubts and suspicions of the authenticity of my posts here may be due to my inabilities as a writer to really explore myself beyond the analytical. If these texts from these women read similar, then that falls on me for dating perhaps the same type of woman. This isn’t braggadocio but just how it feels to me. I am not a serial dater. That’s never been a need or want from me. However, I think, perhaps, I allowed my loneliness to hold onto relationships far longer than I should have. My ex’s saw something in me they may have fallen love with when I did not see it myself.

I KNOW that I am the “problem” in relationships. I have dated some amazing women, who would gladly share their life with me. Who would be supportive, giving, loving, etc. Unfortunately, I rarely if ever feel that with anyone in my life. I have discussed my lack of empathy and lack of feelings of love in therapy; however, I have yet to find a counselor who can truly help guide me. The one I saw last year, I selected him specifically because he also does hypnotherapy. I hoped he could unlock some memories from my childhood that may be have hindered my emotional growth. Unfortunately, he decides that hypnotherapy was unnecessary, and while I have very few memories of childhood, that I needed to continue to work with the CBT/DBT I’ve had and essentially move on.

I do not believe that I have a “Delusional Disorder.” While I may come across as an egomaniac, I know what these woman felt for me. I have records in the form of emails and text messages, and the pain the expressed when it was over. I should not have entered into a serious relationship with them. I should not have allowed loneliness to push me to companionship when I was/am still too self-centered to truly love someone. I don’t think that I am “the best” man. I am selfish, unfulfilled, and empty, and having a partner only adds to my distress–even when they try so hard to help.

That “little boy” lives far away now. While his mother and I still text on occasion, I gave up trying to be a part of his life. I called and FaceTimes for about a year after he left, but his mother has become involved with someone new, so I was relegated to the back burner. I’ll always be a piece of his social network, but my importance has waned.

I know that, deep down, I am filled with sadness and pain. I have never found out why. 15 years have passed since I first walked into a therapists office, and while I’ve learned techniques to manage my depression, I’ve never been able to find it’s possible emotional roots. Nearly every day is a struggle for me and I do not have a lot of hope or trust that things will improve in the future.

Ryan

November 13, 2021 at 12:45 pm #388541

Tee
Participant

Dear Ryan,

welcome back, good to hear from you! How did the move go? Are you satisfied with your new job?

As I said, I don’t question your words, I trust that you wouldn’t invent these things, but that truly, the women you are attracted to are quite similar (perhaps professionally successful, but emotionally insecure, with low self-esteem, sometimes depressed). And that they see you as a great guy, but you don’t see yourself as one, and after a while you leave.

The other problem seems to be that you can’t seem to get to the root of your emotional problems (specially “lack of empathy and lack of feelings of love”), and that you don’t recall anything disturbing from your childhood, which might have led to those problems:

I am filled with sadness and pain. I have never found out why. 15 years have passed since I first walked into a therapists office, and while I’ve learned techniques to manage my depression, I’ve never been able to find it’s possible emotional roots.

I hoped he could unlock some memories from my childhood that may be have hindered my emotional growth.

Do you really not recall any instances where you felt hurt by either of your parents? Or where you felt scared, or misunderstood, or treated unfairly? Do you remember your childhood pretty well, or do you feel there are large parts missing and you don’t have memory of it?

November 13, 2021 at 2:17 pm #388547

Spry_Ry
Participant

Dear Teak,

Thank you for the warm welcome. I have yet to move–the cost of living here is a fraction of what it will be where I’m going. However, we are mandated to return to the office in mid-January, so I’ll be moving shortly after the new year.

I am apprehensive about the job, as it is not truly that fulfilling. While there is an organizational/administrative aspect to it, there is not much of any room for “giving back.” However, I do realize there is a lot to learn, and it will be more beneficial to become proficient at the job as the years go on. And I am hopeful that living near a big city will present more opportunities for social and volunteer activities.

Regarding my parents, my father was and is very warm and generous. My sister is a direct recipient of that now as she recovers from her addictions. My mother was always a bit emotionally distant. She rarely spoke of her feelings or her emotions. We (my sister and I) did feel that things were often left undiscussed. What I mean is that if something we did upset her, we would talk about it but then that was it. She would speak her mind, and we could speak ours, but it never go too deep. (I know that I’m not articulating as best as I should be here.)

I do recall one instance of her making fun of me in front of my friends. I was probably about 12-years-old and we were headed for a bike ride around the neighborhood. I had issues with my bike chain or something and I was getting upset because I couldn’t get it fixed. I recall my mother making fun of the pity party I was throwing for myself and my friends laughing. Other than being embarrassed and angry, not much more is clear. From what I recall, the bike chain was fixed and we all went for a ride. That is my most glaring memory of my mother treating me like a mother shouldn’t.

There are large parts of my childhood I simply do not remember. My sister and I will chat sometimes, and she will bring up something that happened when we were kids. Often I just do not remember the event at all. I have no idea why. I’ve brought these memory lapses up with counselors, and the response I most often get is it’s symptomatic of depression. This is why I was intrigued by the counselor who was also a hypnotist.

Ryan

November 14, 2021 at 1:53 am #388555
Tee
Participant
Dear Ryan,

you are welcome. I hope you do find some benefits at your new workplace, and indeed, more possibilities for socializing and doing the things you like, such as volunteering.

There are large parts of my childhood I simply do not remember. My sister and I will chat sometimes, and she will bring up something that happened when we were kids. Often I just do not remember the event at all.

We usually remember things that emotionally affected us in some way, be it negatively or positively, so I guess if you don’t remember too much, you weren’t emotionally invested in a lot of what was going on in your childhood. Perhaps because you were disassociating, i.e. not really feeling your emotions already then?

My mother was always a bit emotionally distant. She rarely spoke of her feelings or her emotions. We (my sister and I) did feel that things were often left undiscussed. What I mean is that if something we did upset her, we would talk about it but then that was it. She would speak her mind, and we could speak ours, but it never go too deep. (I know that I’m not articulating as best as I should be here.)

You mother didn’t show emotions to you – that could mean she didn’t show joy while she was around you, taking care of you, spending time with you, playing with you. If the mother is cold and detached and doesn’t show warmth and tenderness, that can be devastating for a child. It registers as rejection – and it could lead to you concluding you aren’t good enough and there’s something wrong with you. And you stopped reaching out, because your mother wasn’t responsive. It can easily lead to depression because when our parents aren’t happy that we exist, then nothing really makes sense, there’s nothing to look forward to, there’s nothing that can bring us joy…

That’s why games like peekaboo are so important, because the parent rejoices every time he/she “reappears”, they are so happy to see us. If your mother didn’t really play with you, this could have very well caused depression quite early on…

If that’s the problem, it can be resolved, by simulating being a baby and playing peekaboo, e.g. with a therapist open to such exercises. CBT won’t do the trick if the wounding happened early on, before the rational brain (neocortex) even started developing.
- This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by Tee.
- This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by Tee.
November 18, 2021 at 11:07 am #388733

anna
Participant

Date with coworker that will be like an affair in the office, so exciting! If your company allow that, let others know your relationship.

December 26, 2021 at 5:22 am #390275

Tee
Participant

Dear Ryan,

how have you been doing? I wish you a merry Christmas and happy holidays!

December 29, 2021 at 3:11 pm #390498

Spry_Ry
Participant

Dear TeaK,

Thank you and happy holidays to you as well..

I’m hanging in there. I was able to fly home for the week before Christmas to see my parents, sister, and daughter. It was a busy week but a pleasant one. I’m moving here in about a week and a half, so I’m been prepping. The girl I’ve been seeing for much of the year would like me to move and return to stay with her since our return to the office was pushed back from Jan to possibly March or April. It is a source of stress for us both.

Thank you for checking on me. It is appreciated!

-Ryan

December 30, 2021 at 12:47 am #390504

Tee
Participant

Dear Ryan,

good to hear from you again, I am glad you replied.

I’m moving here in about a week and a half, so I’m been prepping. … our return to the office was pushed back from Jan to possibly March or April.

I see. So I guess you are still staying in the same area (in the Appalachian), since the cost of living there is much smaller than in the big city?

The girl I’ve been seeing for much of the year would like me to move and return to stay with her …. It is a source of stress for us both.

Right. Because she would like you to stay, and you would like to leave the relationship, at least you wanted it a couple of months ago. Has that changed in any way? Are you still determined to break up once you move to your new location?

By the way, what do you think about what I’ve said earlier as a possibility about your childhood:

You mother didn’t show emotions to you – that could mean she didn’t show joy while she was around you, taking care of you, spending time with you, playing with you. If the mother is cold and detached and doesn’t show warmth and tenderness, that can be devastating for a child. It registers as rejection – and it could lead to you concluding you aren’t good enough and there’s something wrong with you.

Do you think this is a possibility – that your mother being emotionally cold and detached led you to believe that you are unlovable and that there is something wrong with you?

December 30, 2021 at 3:32 am #390512
Tee
Participant
Dear Ryan,

I was able to fly home for the week before Christmas to see my parents, sister, and daughter. It was a busy week but a pleasant one. I’m moving here in about a week and a half, so I’m been prepping.

I think I’ve misunderstood you in my previous post. Are you actually moving to your parents’ place till the time you’ll be required to return to the office?

You say your time with you family was a pleasant one. That’s nice. How are you feeling around your mother? Is she still emotionally reserved?
- This reply was modified 3 years, 3 months ago by Tee.
December 30, 2021 at 12:42 pm #390523

Spry_Ry
Participant

Dear TeaK,

No, no. I just flew home to visit family for Christmas. I foolishly(?) signed a lease in early December because we were supposed to report to the office in Jan. However, that return was pushed back the week before Christmas, so now I’m on the hook since I’m in a contract. It is a very nice place, so in a sense, I’m glad that I found it. However, it would have been nice to save a bit more for a few months longer had waited a bit. (Omicron wasn’t a thing yet, so I had no way of knowing our return would be pushed back.)

The relationship has lately been stressful. It’s another “unrequited love story” for me. I do care for her deeply and our relationship is very easy, but I just do not feel for her with the same depth as she does for me. She wants me to “fight” for us. There just isn’t that longing within me to build a deeper relationship with her. I’ve tried but the feelings never come. Much to her disappointment and sadness. As you (or possibly Anita) hinted at before, she has some self-esteem issues and feels as though there is something wrong with her.

Well, I hate myself and disgust myself. Last night I couldn’t stop wondering what I was lacking to make you or anyone want me enough to fight for it.

I feel that I carry too many of my own issues to properly be the partner she needs and deserves. Which is unfortunate.

My mother is still quite reserved. I did some Christmas shopping with my father when I was home, and he told me that my mom is typically stressed and sad during the holidays. Likely due to her poor relationship with her parents. To your point, I certainly feel that my mother’s detachment and cool demeanor (at times) led me to believe that I’m not good enough for another. (My current relationship perhaps helps to bolster this idea?) The counselor I found last year specialized in hypnosis, and it was my hope that he could unlock some things from my childhood. Unfortunately, he did not think it necessary. I’m hoping to find another counselor next year to help me focus on this. It’s been a largely lonely road for me thus far and I do not want to end up alone in life.

Ryan

December 31, 2021 at 2:46 am #390539

Tee
Participant

Dear Ryan,

My mother is still quite reserved. I did some Christmas shopping with my father when I was home, and he told me that my mom is typically stressed and sad during the holidays. Likely due to her poor relationship with her parents. To your point, I certainly feel that my mother’s detachment and cool demeanor (at times) led me to believe that I’m not good enough for another.

Yes, because if the child cannot make their mother happy, if she is often sad and depressed in spite of all the love the child is showering her with – then the child concludes that something is wrong with them. That the problem is in them, not in their mother.

One consequence of that is that you don’t feel good enough. You’ve expressed that notion many times before here.

Another consequence of having had emotional trauma is that as adults, we are attracted to people who remind us the parent who hurt is. We hope that this time around, it will be different, and that we will finally get the love we crave for. That’s all unconscious, we aren’t aware of those patterns, but still, the craving for a certain type of person is there.

You started this thread pining for your work colleague, who I believe is a person who reminds you of your mother. You often spoke about her having her walls up and not letting you see her true self. This is what you wrote about her:

She was safe and so welcoming…but only to a point. She would often text and call, and when I was with her, I did not feel like I was not wanted there. Yet, there was a distance between us. Her own “walls” she kept up in this brief relationship. There is much I did not know about her, and much that I was not permitted to know about her.

And then you’ve realized that you yourself used to do the same thing to your previous girlfriends – erecting walls and not letting them near you:

I think what is frustrating is that I see in her what I used to do in relationships: Fearful of judgement or disappointment, I was unwilling to let my partner in by maintaining or fortifying the walls, so that they never really knew the “real me.” I can see that reflect in her so clearly now. She enjoys her time with me, cares for me, and is attracted to me; however, due to her perceived flaws or fears, she keeps me at a distance, so she protects herself and controls the relationship. This, based on my experience, makes the other person anxious and walking the tightrope to either a deeper relationship or falling and being hurt.

You are now doing the same thing to your current girlfriend – you’re keeping her out and withdrawing. Since she is available and open to you, since she isn’t erecting walls towards you – you aren’t interested. Were she rejecting and pushing you away, you would be interested, I am almost sure about that.

You see the pattern? Those who don’t want you, you crave for. Those who do want you, you don’t want.

I believe this is all caused by your emotional trauma with your cold and distant mother. I don’t think you’d need to explore further what exactly happened in your childhood (by means of hypnotherapy), since I believe this should be enough to work on in therapy.

I think the wound you’ve experienced is emotional neglect: you mother not showing enough love, appreciation and interest in you, since she was suffering from the consequences of her own childhood wounds. She wasn’t emotionally available to you, and it always felt as if there is a wall around her heart, that you couldn’t get in. She didn’t show you her true self, and she probably wasn’t interested in your true self either.

And so now you are craving to be truly seen by a specific type of woman: a type who is emotionally guarded and unwilling to let you inside of her walls. You want to see her and be seen by her, to share your deepest self with her. But she refuses. That’s what happened with your colleague.

Your current girlfriend is open and receptive, she would like to share her deepest self with you, but that’s not attractive to you.

It’s been a largely lonely road for me thus far and I do not want to end up alone in life.

I understand, and I hope you too can see why it has been lonely… because of this pattern you are stuck in. You’d need to heal the wound of emotional neglect, inflicted by your mother, if you want to maintain a healthy relationship, where both parties are equally keen on each other, and there is no unrequited love.

January 4, 2022 at 3:02 pm #390756

Spry_Ry
Participant

Dear TeaK,

Thank you for this solid summation! I will certainly use this when I meet with a new counselor.

And, yes, I feel that you are spot-on: “Those who don’t want you, you crave for. Those who do want you, you don’t want.” The work colleague that I had a brief relationship with, there was a mystery about her that intrigued me. There was an obvious physical attraction, but the mystery was the larger attraction. The quest to learn more–and to knock down her walls–kept me pursuing her.

I haven’t written as much about the girl I’ve been seeing for most of 2021, but she has helped me to open up more than anyone has in some time. (The closest correlation would be the counselor I dated about 10-years ago who really forced me to open up–even though I wasn’t ready to at the time.) We’ve had some real “heart-to-hearts” these past few months, which has been therapeutic in a sense. Unfortunately, there is just something missing that hasn’t allowed me to stay here and try a long-term relationship with her–though she is willing to relocate if that’s what we both want in the future. We have had a breezy time together and have experienced some amazing road trips and adventures in 2021. Nevertheless, there is just something that prevents me from exploring something that perhaps could be amazing.

She too suffers from anxiety and depression and had an often dark childhood that she hasn’t been willing to share with me. Maybe that is part of the reason why we click so well? I leave for the new job this upcoming weekend, so we tried to make the most of our last weekend together. I know the distance will be hard on both of us, and she is a bit excited/jealous that I get to escape this town and work on a future in a new, larger city.

I’d like us to eventually find a way to transition to friends, but I know that will be extremely difficult. I do care deeply for her (love perhaps?), but I know she loves me deeply and this will be a messy time for the both of us. She knew I was not long for this town, but it doesn’t make my leaving any easier.

As you said, TeaK, I need to work on breaking this pattern I’ve been stuck in for so long.

Ryan

January 5, 2022 at 10:16 am #390795

Tee
Participant

Dear Ryan,

Thank you for this solid summation! I will certainly use this when I meet with a new counselor. … I need to work on breaking this pattern I’ve been stuck in for so long.

you are very welcome. I hope you can get to the bottom of this pattern and break free from it, i.e. heal the emotional wound behind it.

Unfortunately, there is just something missing that hasn’t allowed me to stay here and try a long-term relationship

she has helped me to open up more than anyone has in some time. We’ve had some real “heart-to-hearts” these past few months, which has been therapeutic in a sense.

She too suffers from anxiety and depression and had an often dark childhood that she hasn’t been willing to share with me. Maybe that is part of the reason why we click so well?

Could be, since you share a lot of similarities. It probably feels good to open up to a woman (since you didn’t have that with your mother), so that could be an attraction point. However, this woman is inviting and accepting of you – even though she didn’t tell you all the details of her dark childhood – and this isn’t very attractive, because you crave to win over a woman that is not so inviting and not so accepting. A woman who keeps up her walls.

The child in you is still trying to win over a woman behind those walls…. your own mother.

I’d like us to eventually find a way to transition to friends, but I know that will be extremely difficult. I do care deeply for her (love perhaps?)

I can imagine you care for her, and you like the emotional intimacy you’ve shared. As I said, that’s probably an “attraction point”, and the reason you feel an affection towards her. But not the kind of love you’d need for a romantic relationship…

As for staying friends, I remember you also wanted to remain close friends with your previous girlfriend (the mother of a little boy). But she refused it, because she didn’t want you to be her emotional confidante while refusing to be her romantic partner. And I can understand her, because it’s hard to remain friends with someone you have feelings for.

Could it be that now you want to stay friends for the same reason: because emotional sharing with this woman feels good, you like it?

What comes to mind is that you have a need for emotional sharing and intimacy, which is a valid need. But perhaps you could have this need met differently, not necessarily by getting involved in a romantic relationship – I mean, for now, till you heal the emotional wound.

On the other thread, you asked anita:

Do you have any recommendations for managing anxiety? I’m relocating for the new job in the new city this weekend and my anxiety is growing.

What do you think your anxiety is related to? One suggestion that anita gave you is to find an opportunity to socialize and enjoy other people’s company. How do you feel about that? Perhaps opening up to a select number of people – those you feel you can trust (even if it’s just one person) – would meet some of your need for emotional closeness and sharing? Or that would feel too vulnerable for you?

January 19, 2022 at 1:05 pm #391613

Spry_Ry
Participant

Dear TeaK,

I arrived in my new city last weekend and have slowly been getting my place set up. I have my intake appointment with the mental health clinic tomorrow morning, so I’m hoping to get an appointment in a week or two.

The woman I left behind is dealing with the aftermath of my departure as best she could. She laments that should never have pushed for more knowing I was leaving and couldn’t offer more due to circumstances, to wishing I had not wasted her time believing we’d have a future. I tried to explain that I need to focus solely on myself and deal with the “emotional neglect” and difficulty forming attachments, and while she tried to be understanding, she is upset–to say the least. She regrets “every stupid day.” It’s hard to explain my feelings when love and emotions are involved, but she does not want to speak to me ever again. I cannot do this to another woman, so I know that I must get help.

I feel the anxiety came from the move itself and my relocation to a new city. However, it was a successful move and I’ve tried to fight the darkness and stay productive preparing the inside of my home. I did enroll at a local gym here and signed up for a Meetup account. With any luck, I can make some friends soon…and be open with them.

Ryan
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