Dear Dafne,

good to read from you too!

Skipping the romantic bit completely till marriage did sound a little bit strange to me too. I know that in some religious communities it is normal and even expected to date without any physical/romantic relationship but otherwise not sure.

Yes, arranged marriage is a concept like that, where there is no physical or emotional bonding before marriage. But that’s when someone else (your parents or a religious elder) decides whom you should marry. In Christianity and other religions too, there is a concept of “no sex before marriage.” That’s when emotional bonding is allowed and encouraged, but no sex.

So skipping the romantic part happens only in arranged marriages, and I guess that’s not what you want…

So I asked her to give me more details. She explained that the concept she is talking about is called rotational dating. And you can be romantic (kiss, hug etc. but no sex) with other people but you don’t have to.

I found the website of this dating coach, who is promoting “rotational dating” (her name is Sami Wunder). I kind of understand what she is talking about, however I personally wouldn’t be able to kiss, hold hands, go on romantic walks… with more than one person. Which is what this coach suggests.

I agree that we can date multiple people in the beginning, to filter out people who don’t share our values and only want a casual relationship. But at some point, I think the most natural and honest thing is to pick one guy and start forming that deeper bond with him. I personally wouldn’t be able to form a deeper bond with more than one person at a time.

What’s the difference to date casually and in rotation?

If I understood her well, in rotational dating you are being emotional/romantic (but no sex) with more than one person simultaneously. She recommends 2 to 3 people max – those are the guys whom you’ve screened out as suitable candidates. She recommends to date all 3 of them until one of them proposes or gives you whatever commitment you are hoping for.

But as I said, it’s not something I could do, because first, it involves emotional intimacy, kissing and holding hands with multiple people, which is unacceptable for me. And also, it’s a bit like choosing the “best bidder”, which is not love and more, but a business deal.

What do you think Tee? Does it make more sense to you now? Would this concept help me to choose wisely and heal faster?

Honestly, I don’t think it would help you. I think it might hurt you even more. What I think would help you is to do some healing related to your childhood wounds, so you could have more self-confidence and more clarity in picking the right guy.

One of my favorite coaches on youtube, Anna Runkle, also known as the Crappy Childhood Fairy, talks about how to find true love. She specializes in dating, relationships, and healing from childhood trauma. She has a video you might like: “How to heal and find real love” (enter the title in youtube and you’ll find it). Let me know what you think…

Hi Peter,

you are very welcome. Dr. Tori Olds is a valuable find indeed. I was amazed and grateful for her videos, they just resonate so much.

Anyway when that hope arises I wonder if I’m asking if ‘I’ care and love ‘me’ in the moment when the thought arises.

Yeah, I know, that’s the real question…

When Jung was asked the question if he believed in G_d (G_d-Christ – Brahman-Atman – capital S -Self) he replied that he did not believe because he knew. He was highly criticized for that answer and he didn’t explain himself as far as I know.

That’s interesting, didn’t know that about Jung. I have to say, I also “know”, kind of. Because I had the experience of the capital S Self. But sometimes, when I am struggling (specially with my health recently) I start doubting… not in the existence of God, but whether he/she/it cares. I think in those moments of suffering I get disconnected from the Self, and slip into fear and doubt. But then I process through my pain and find renewed hope. I get re-connected to the Self, at least for a while, until some other fear creeps in…

Now when I think about it, it’s like dropping off the line and getting reconnected again multiple times a day, some days with longer and some days with shorter duration 🙂

Dear EvFran,

I think that since her son is 21, perhaps some “tough love” would be appropriate: I think she shouldn’t be supporting him and paying for his escapades, but ask him to move out, if he’s not planning to continue his studies. That will force him to find work and get his act together. If she keeps bailing him out and tolerating his lifestyle, she will be enabling him and not helping him at all.

I understand that he might have a tough time due to his parents divorcing and possibly other issues from his childhood. But nevertheless, smoking weed all day and getting in trouble with the law is not the answer. I would also suggest that he starts attending therapy. If I were his mother, I would pay for his therapy, but I wouldn’t keep enabling his bad behavior and bailing him out.

Hi Adam,

you’re welcome!

It. Really did feel like it was all about her and your analogy of the remote control car in one of your previous comments was a perfect one. She really did control everything including how I felt. When I would resist or stand my ground it was more signs of imperfect love, I was only trying to encourage her own self reliance. I was living through the lens of her happiness and not my own.

This very much sounds like you were codependent on her – your happiness depended on her happiness and you tried everything to make her happy. When you couldn’t be on “standby” 100% of the time, she would accuse you of not loving her perfectly. So your life revolved around her and trying to make her happy…

She told me I need to change by being there for her more and understanding what she was feeling. I was constantly told I wasn’t listening to her or understanding her needs.

The responsibility of work and owning a house is a lot. She has neither and for this reason she couldn’t understand the demand of my life at times.

She would accuse me of not having my priorities right, expecting that she should be number 1 before anything else.

Yeah, this is typical in people with trauma: it’s all about their needs, they want to be your No1 and come before everything else. It’s basically the demands of a child who needs attention and care 100% of the time. The problem is that she is not a child any more, and you’re not her mother. You cannot babysit her all the time. She refused to take responsibility for herself and shifted that responsibility on you, and then sort of bullied you when you wouldn’t accept it fully.

My priority is my future, family and me. I feel as if these all correlate in my life and a partner is included in that, not any higher or lower on some list.

It’s a good attitude. We’re not supposed to be our partner’s care-taker. In fact, both partners need to be adult enough to heal any major childhood wounds they may have, because only then can they participate in a healthy relationship. And a healthy relationship is interdependent, not codependent.

I never heard of trauma bonding until today but I started seeing the signs of emotional abuse last week. This was definitely what I was experience as well as manipulation. I think it was unintentional but still that isn’t what I want from a relationship.

I also wasn’t clear what exactly trauma bonding was, but now that I watched that video again, it became clear to me. And it’s really what you had too: intimacy and closeness alternating with blaming and rejection. I am glad you’ve become aware that it was actually abuse and that she used you as her punching bag.

I do feel a bit different, I don’t know how to describe it but I feel violated and taken advantage.

Yeah, that’s normal. Abuse does that to us… Try to be gentle on yourself. Practice self-care, have plenty of rest and do the things that make you happy. You need to start focusing on yourself and your own needs – so turn the attention inwards.

I am waking up to it. I felt so trapped and alone the day before she left me. It’s because I was in the end. I was suffering in silence because of her mental instability. I felt as I couldn’t speak in fear of upsetting her or just being straight up rejected. That in itself is hurting me as I am questioning if I maybe should have spoken up more. However I don’t think it would change any outcome.

No, you couldn’t have changed anything with her. Nothing you might have said would have made a difference. You already spent months and months discussing things, and there was no change. So no, you couldn’t have done anything. Please don’t blame yourself for her behavior or for the breakup.

I know I need to stop. I have removed her off everything and my headspace is on fixing myself and not latching onto hopes of a future relationship.

Good! She might contact you again, saying she is sorry, but please don’t allow to get hooked again! Please stay away from her because her behavior is toxic.

I texted My psych again today I hopes to book another appointment. I bottled everything up last session as I was too afraid to say I felt I was being abused emotionally, I wasn’t sure if it was me overthinking.

Yeah, you weren’t sure yet. And sometimes we tend to hide the truth even from ourselves, justifying and trying to excuse our partner’s behavior, even blaming ourselves. But it’s good you’re seeing it now, and are ready to talk about it and process it.

Please take good care of yourself in the coming days and weeks. Hope to talk to you soon!

Hi Adam,

good to hear from you again!

I am sorry you’re hurt once again, but at the same time, I hope you can see now that this relationship was pretty bad for you and your mental health.

It dawned on me a couple of days ago that I felt as I couldn’t be myself and do what I want to do. She needed a caregiver 247 and when I wasn’t there for her it was again signs of me not loving her enough and her not getting what she was wanting.

We were fighting a lot the last couple weeks and it was all brought on due to her not feeling connected etc. we’d have a chat and sort things out but then again days or a week later she would say she wasn’t getting what she wanted.

It seems it was all about her and her needs. She really felt she can press a button and you’ll show up, or you’ll disappear from her sight on demand. That is emotional abuse, Adam. You saw it well. Anna Runkle (The Crappy Childhood Fairy) calls it emotional abuse too. She used the phrase “yanking a dog’s chain”. She also calls it trauma bonding: constantly switching from being nice and loving to you, to then blaming you and wanting to break up with you. That’s not true love, but trauma bonding.

You were hooked on her nice words and promises, that’s why you tolerated her abuse. And it was hard to let go, because you were craving those moments of connection and intimacy that were there. But the problem is that those good moments were soon followed by attacks and withdrawal. So it was a roller-coaster. And this roller-coaster of being “loved” in one moment and then rejected in the next is called trauma bonding.

I feel quite attacked honestly. I don’t think my side was ever considered and she would selfishly use me as a punching bag for her irrational behavior. I felt really shit about myself after an argument the other night and I remember thinking I can’t leave her but that she was going to do it soon. Now it’s happened and I may not be happy at the moment but I needed an out. I think I may have been receiving slight emotion abuse at times.

Yes, it was emotional abuse definitely, and not only slight. It’s a pity that you felt you can’t leave. Do you now, after seeing the video and understanding it was emotional abuse – feel any different?

As explained in the video it wasn’t a relationship that I wanted but I did tell myself and I push past this and deal with all the bad despite how it made me feel there would be light at the end.

Yes, because she hooked you with those good moments when it felt as if she loved you. That’s why you felt hope. You hoped that she would seek therapy and heal her trauma, so she can love you always, not only sometimes. But it never happened, because she doesn’t want therapy.

she told me nothing changed even though she told me what I needed to do. However I don’t believe I needed to change anything.

Oh she told you you need to change? And how so?

The whole situation sucks but I am feeling a tad better about it this time, I think I’ve just woken up to what was happening and I also got over trying to fill a bottomless pit with my love.

I also hope you’re waking up to how abusive this relationship was!

I lost myself in the process

I hear you, Adam. You tried to fit yourself to her requirements, you tried everything not to upset her, you tried to be supportive of her ups and downs… Anna Runkle calls this “crap fitting”. When we try to fit ourselves to crap that our partner is exposing us to.

But you can recover, Adam. However, you need to stop contacting her, stop trying to change her. You need to let her go, because she can’t give you what you need. Do you think you can do that?

Hi Peter,

To love our neighbor as ourselves isn’t then a reflection of how we love ourselves, or not only that, but that our neighbor is also It and so also our Self.

Yes, we are all One…

A psychotherapist Richard Schwartz, founder of the Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy, had been working with hundreds of people, who all said that when they unblend from all their parts (the protector part, the child part etc), what remains is their true self. What that observes all those other parts is the true self. And so Richard Schwartz began to call it the Self (with the capital S).

There is a beautiful youtube video by another therapist (Dr. Tori Olds), who explains our Self from that perspective, including the 8 characteristics of the Self. It’s titled “How to find yourself: The True Self in IFS therapy“. I think it’s worth watching. It kind of blends psychotherapy and spirituality when explaining our true self, and to me, it’s quite fascinating.

Dear Dafne,

you are very welcome!

To summ up, next time he contacts me I will only accept meeting him in public (no going to his place for at least 2 more dates outside). I will find an excuse that the evening I’m busy and only day time works for now. If he doesn’t accept, I will say that I won’t be coming to his place. And that I can wait when he is ready for a more romantic relationship. We can stay friends for the moment being.

Sounds good! Let me know if he messages you again…

Actually, he doesn’t text me, only before the meeting so that might also be a sign that he doesn’t want to bond emotionally.

Yes, if he isn’t interested to check in on you throughout the week, and only texts right before he wants to pick you up, that too shows he isn’t interested to bond emotionally.

One of my friends came up with a new idea for dating. I’m curious what is your take on that. She advised not to be boyfriend/girlfriend until engagement. Basically we are connecting as friends, maybe kiss and hug (no sex with men).

Hmm… that’s a strange concept: to get engaged without being in a romantic relationship beforehand. If that’s what she meant?

I can meet with more than 1 person and get to know without giving the benefits of a relationship.

Yes, that’s dating. In the dating phase, you can meet more than one person and have that “interview” type of conversation, where you see if you are on the same page regarding what you want from the relationship, whether they want to get married eventually etc. But then once you pick your guy and start bonding emotionally and developing feelings, you can’t just remain friends till they ask you to get married. You need to have the romantic phase of the relationship, which can or doesn’t have to include sex. But what it has to include are mutual feelings and affection for each other, and prospects for a committed relationship, i.e. marriage.

So you cannot really jump from dating multiple people to getting married without choosing one particular person with whom you’ll engage in a romantic (boyfriend/girlfriend) relationship. That’s because you want to get to know the person quite well before deciding to marry them. You don’t want someone who will promise to marry you already on the second date, because that would be a big red flag.

Because those people who immediately offer marriage usually have an ulterior motive, e.g. they may want you to do the chores for them, look after their kids, take care of their sick parents etc (you were already involved with such guys, right?). Or maybe they are a conman who is after your money and wants to exploit you financially.

In any case, if someone wants to marry you only a short time after having met you, that’s a big red flag. So you need to be wary of both such guys, as well as guys who only want sex and don’t want any commitment. Both are bad news and something to stay away from.

I’m curious, Tee, what is your opinion on that? Is it a good way and more effective than being boyfriend/girlfriend first?

No, in my opinion it is not effective, if it means you skip the romantic phase and look for men who will tell you they want to marry you right after they meet you. You can’t expect such a guarantee. A guy can be interested in marriage as such, however he cannot immediately promise you anything. It’s a big deal, a big life decision, to get married, so the couple wants to get to know each other properly and know what they can expect from each other. I would date for at least a year before getting married. Anything that is rushed isn’t good.

I would like to get married and not stuck in a relationship forever.

I understand that, but as I said, you can’t marry a good, decent guy without first being in a relationship with him and getting to know him. What you should establish in the beginning is a) if he is free to marry and b) if he is interested to get married. If those 2 preconditions are met, and you like the guy, you can proceed to date and develop a relationship. And if there is mutual attraction and similar values, it will hopefully result in marriage, not too far down the line.

How does this sound?