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TeeParticipantDear Anita,
you’re very welcome!
When I first read Copilotās use of the word love in that context, I felt a deep sense of discomfort. It puzzled meācalling abuse any form of love feels like a distortion in itself. As you so beautifully put it, that kind of language blurs boundaries that must stay clear. Your phrasingārelating or parenting in distorted waysārings true to my experience. It preserves the integrity of what love is meant to be: safe, nourishing, affirming. Anything less shouldnāt bear the same name.
Yes, I think so too. Actually, I think Copilot (or any other AI model, such as ChatGPT) can be rather tricky, because sometimes it gives us the answers it thinks we want to hear. I’ve noticed it with ChatGPT that if I formulate my question in a way that it contains in itself an assumption, it might give me an answer that is skewed to conform to that assumption.
It’s almost as if my assumption (which might be a false one) limits the spectrum of answers that ChatGPT is willing to offer me, and skews the answer to fit my assumption! Which I found rather unsettling, because I want the facts, not some “hallucinations”, as they call it, or some skewed opinions that AI thinks I want to hear.
I might be wrong about Copilot, since I’ve never used it, but if it’s similar to ChatGPT, maybe it “sensed” that the thought of your mother not loving you is a painful one for you:
Anita: She didnāt love me, did she? (tears in my eyes)
Maybe that’s when Copilot chose to describe her behavior as “love, but not in its truest form”. And then, when you probed further: “was it love in any form?“, it proceeded to offer the possibility that it might have been a flicker of love and a longing to connect, but that she wasn’t able to show it properly. Finally, it concluded that “some people love in distorted ways: through control, through harshness, through silence.”
I don’t know, this is just a speculation. But it could be that it gave you an answer that it deemed more acceptable to you. Eventually, it did “correct” itself and gave a true definition of love. But this little “glitch” might have been caused by this feature of wanting to give a pleasing answer.
Sorry for harping on this, but I did get disappointed in AI, or at least, I’ve experienced its limitations, so I’m now much more cautious about using it.
When my mother did things that seemed lovingālike cooking my favorite meal, or walking a long distance to get me a cake I lovedāit confused me. In some ways, I almost wished her behavior had been consistently bad, so I wouldnāt have to feel so conflicted.
Do you think those acts were expressions of love, at least in intent?
Hmm… I think she wanted to look like a good mother. And for her, a good mother is a mother who sacrifices herself, who almost acts like a martyr. Walking long distance to get you a favorite cake is a martyr-like behavior. And I can imagine that she was later telling you how sacrificial she was, and how this is a proof that she loves you so much, right?
I don’t think she did it in a calculated, conscious way, but that she had the need to feel like a good person, and doing those “acts of sacrifice” made her feel like that. It was for her own ego, I think, for her own sense of goodness. I might be wrong though.
And yes, that’s very confusing, because those “acts of kindness” do seem like love and care. But they always come with a price, where she might blame you later for not being grateful enough, or as a proof of how much she loves you.
But the thing with narcissistic mothers is that it’s very hard to be grateful and feel their love, because most of the times what we hear is criticism, put-downs, and the message that we’re not good enough. We might even feel guilty for not feeling grateful for their “acts of kindness” when in truth, we can’t be grateful for the abuse that we’re experiencing on a daily basis.
Anyway, I think their “acts of kindness” or “acts of sacrifice” might be more about showing how great of a person they are, and not so much about truly caring and wanting to make their child happy. So yeah, I think there is a selfish motive underneath, although they might not be aware of that.
TeeParticipantDear Anita,
some more musings on what the Copilot said:
Itās possible she had feelings she labeled as loveāmaybe attachment, or duty, or protectiveness in her own distorted lens. But even if those emotions existed, true love is not measured by intention aloneāit must be felt, lived, and received as care.
Your mother probably had an idea of what a good parent is, which is (according to her) that they provide for the child’s physical needs. I remember you saying that she worked a lot so that she can buy you the nicest toys, for example. So in her mind, that was love: sacrificing herself and working hard so that her children can have a certain level of material well-being.
However, she completely disregarded your emotional well-being. In that area, she not only neglected you, but was abusive (my mother was similar). So she might have “loved” you according to her definition of love: put food on the table, buy you nice things, meet your physical/material needs.
But is that love? Well, it’s only a part of it. Because physical needs are not the only thing we need. We’ve already discussed it in the past that emotional needs are even more important, because it is through our relationship with our parents that we learn to either love or hate ourselves. If they’ve been systematically telling us that we’re not good enough (or that we’re “one big zero”), then they’ve taught us to hate ourselves. And they’ve sentenced us to a life of self-loathing – until we’ve awaken to it and start healing it.
So meeting our emotional needs is much more important than giving us material wealth. Of course, some basic care is necessary, such as that we have a roof over our head, regular meals, hygiene, clothes to wear, and such. And that we’re sent to school.
But beyond that, a child won’t be happier with the xth Barbie doll or a new i-phone. However, that same child will feel extremely deprived if they don’t get empathy, affection and support from their parent. In short, what we didn’t get emotionally is much more damaging than what we might not gotten materially.
Anyway, we’ve already discussed this in the past, and maybe I’m repeating myself. But I just wanted to clarify it for myself too, that love – if it’s based on a false notion of love – is not love. Because meeting the child’s physical needs while at the same time crushing their soul is not love. It’s abuse. And it’s much more harmful than depriving the child of some (non-essential) material thing.
Sorry for the rant, but felt the need to get it out š
TeeParticipantDear Anita,
this is my second attempt at replying š
So you’ve asked me on the other thread to read your conversation with Copilot on the relationship between narcissism and toxic shame. I have, and I think Copilot did a very good job š
I like how it says that even though we might have compassion for the narcissist – since their behavior may have been caused by a trauma – we also shouldn’t minimize our own pain and the negative impact it had on us:
Two Truths Can Exist Together: She mightāve been wounded, overwhelmed, defending herself unconsciously. She also said something that was cruel, harmful, and untrue.
Copilot also says what I’ve heard from experts on youtube that narcissists live in their own distorted reality and never fully acknowledge the harm they are doing to others:
People who carry deep shame often build mental defenses to avoid facing the damage they causeābecause to confront it would mean reckoning with their own pain, guilt, or inadequacy.
So she mightāve sensed it⦠but shoved that knowing into the background. Made excuses. Told herself stories like āIām just trying to helpā or āSheās too sensitive.ā Not because it was true, but because it was safer than facing the full weight of her actions.Even if they know their actions might not be the nicest, they always find an excuse. If nothing, they will say “he/she is a bad person – they’ve deserved it.” In their own mind, they are vindicated, because they were “harmed” and the other person is “bad.” Very black-and-white and even childish thinking.
Regarding your conversation on love, Copilot says that what the narcissist claims is love isn’t love really, and I agree with it:
Sometimes people believe they love while acting in ways that deeply contradict itābecause their own capacity to give or receive love is broken, shaped by wounds they never healed. What you received wasnāt love in its truest form.
Anita: āWhat you received wasnāt love in its truest form.ā- Was it love in any form?
Copilot: Maybe it was a flickerāa longing in her to connectāthat got buried beneath her inability to nurture. Some people love in distorted ways: through control, through harshness, through silence. But love thatās warped ceases to be recognizable. Itās like trying to water a plant with poison and calling it care.In the second part of the above section, Copilot says: “Some people love in distorted ways: through control, through harshness, through silence.”
I personally would rephrase it as: “Some people relate to others in distorted ways. Some people parent in distorted ways.” But this parenting or relating to others cannot be called love. In my book, love manifested as abuse isn’t love, even if the abuser calls it love.
Copilot says the same, actually:
if her love didnāt feel like love⦠itās okay to name that. Love should be nourishing. It should protect, affirm, and build. If what she gave you tore at your sense of self, made you question your worth, and left you aching rather than comfortedāthen what she called love may not have been love at all.
Here is something that I don’t necessarily agree with, at least not the way it is phrased:
And hereās the deeper truth: You werenāt just āany child.ā You were youāsensitive, perceptive, deserving of tenderness. If her ways failed to meet you there, then what she offered wasnāt loveāit was survival, control, and missed chances.
Well, any child would be hurt by your mother’s actions. Every child is sensitive. Every child is deserving of tenderness. So it’s not that you were especially needy, and therefore you didn’t feel her love the way it should be felt. It’s rather that you were a normal child, with normal needs, and she didn’t know how to meet those needs.
However, I do agree with Copilot’s conclusion (and its overall message):
You didnāt need (to be) a different kind of child to receive her version of love. She needed to become a different kind of mother.
Yes, definitely! And I hope you can accept that about yourself: that her inability to love you and give you what you needed doesn’t have anything to do with you, but with her own deficiencies.
But it also means that even though you might have compassion for your mother – since her own childhood was a traumatic one – you don’t need to carry a hope that you could heal her or make her aware of her own wounds to the point that she would want healing.
Unfortunately, narcissistic people are very resistant to the idea that there’s anything wrong with them, that they have any kind of vulnerability or weakness. So I think that any attempt to talk to her and “help her see” would be a futile one. The only way forward is to let go of the need to change them and make them into the loving parent we needed as children.
TeeParticipantDear Anita,
I’ve almost finished a reply to you, but have somehow managed to lose it š And there is no Undo button here anymore (there used to be), and the Control+Z hasn’t done anything. So my reply is lost š
I usually copy-paste my replies once they’re finished, so they wouldn’t get lost when I press the Submit button. But since it wasn’t completely finished, I haven’t copy-pasted it yet, and it just disappeared. Although I’m not aware of doing anything… I was just scrolling through my reply. Ehhh…
Anyway, what’s done is done. I’ll try to recreate my post a bit later…
TeeParticipantDear Eva,
I’m really sorry for how you were treated throughout your relationship and the way he finally left you. I feel your pain. And I’ll start at the end:
I really cannot accept the situation as it is and say okay, BYE now. I keep fighting and fighting, and still everything is worse.
I feel your frustration. You want him to understand how much he has hurt you and how little he has given you. Now that he has broken up with you so suddenly, you’re fighting for an admission and a recognition on his part that he has done you wrong.
But I’m afraid you won’t be able to get it from him, because he sounds to me like someone with narcissistic traits: selfishness, lack of empathy, lack of remorse, and shifting the blame on you every time you expressed your concerns.
You say that in the beginning, your relationship was good:
Even though it was a complicated situation, we continued to see each other for years because it felt good ā there was chemistry, understanding, and a genuine connection.
I guess “good” is a relative term, since he kept your relationship secret for quite some time (actually for the entire span of your relationship, if I understood well?). But perhaps in the beginning you were more tolerant because it was a somewhat delicate situation, since he was your ex’s friend. He felt he would be judged by not only your ex but his whole friend group (at least that’s what he’s told you as his excuse), and so I guess you had understanding for him and were patient at first.
But I can imagine that as the time went by, you felt increasingly unhappy about this arrangement and started voicing your concerns. No wonder, since you wanted a real relationship, not to be kept in secret from the world: not only from his friends group but from everyone (He hides me from everyone, even people not connected to my ex (friends, relativesā¦)).
You were in a rather humiliating situation, and you had every right to protest. But each time you spoke up, he flipped it back on you:
He always manages to flip it back on me ā my reaction, my emotions, my tears, the way I speak or write⦠Every time, he finds a way to twist it so that Iām the problem. Heās never once apologized. Never taken responsibility. Just blames me for my reactions to his actions.
He never took responsibility for his actions, his selfishness, his constant rejection of you and your love. Instead, he blamed you. That’s a typical narcissistic tactic: accusing the victim of being the abuser. This tactic is called DARVO: Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. So he was the abuser – he was emotionally abusing you – but he portrayed himself as the victim of your abuse. He flipped things on their head.
And I havenāt done anything, only fighting for me to feel better, and addressing those feelings. And still, even with that, he proceeds to act like I am the problem, so much paranoia, constant fighting, constant whining, etc.
You only wanted to be treated with minimum respect. However, he denied you that and accused you of being paranoid, constantly whining, fighting etc.
I really cannot accept the situation as it is and say okay, BYE now. I keep fighting and fighting, and still everything is worse.
Unfortunately, with people with narcissistic traits, which he seems to fit pretty well, fighting them never yield results. You will never manage to get an apology from him or an admission that he did something wrong. A narcissist can never admit they are wrong. They have to defend their fragile ego. And so the more you fight, the more he will accuse you, and the more mean he will get. And you will end up getting even more hurt.
I’m afraid you can only start healing when you stop expecting anything from him – any kind of apology, empathy or understanding. You won’t be able to make it right with him. But you can heal and make it right in your own life – separately from him – when you discover your own worth and how much more you deserve than the breadcrumbs he was giving you.
He was telling you he loved you (in the beginning of the relationship, later not even that), but those were just empty words, because his actions didn’t follow suit. What he gave you wasn’t love – but as Anita said, none of that was your fault, but his own abusive personality.
You do need healing, but the silver lining in all this is that you don’t need anything from him to heal. It is in your own hands. Your happiness is in your own hands.
TeeParticipantDear Ada,
happy to hear from you! I’m glad you’re getting more clarity and are realizing that it’s okay to stand up for yourself and your core values:
I want to treat my partner as a true equal and try to understand him as I understand myself, but ultimately, I have to prioritize my own voice.
I really just need to be more confident that Iāll be able to defend whatās good for me.
You also say you lack self-esteem:
In general I do struggle with self-esteem and try very hard to see things from other peoplesā perspectives, especially in intimate relationships.
Yes, I’ve noticed that. You are trying your best to understand and accommodate Sam. And I’m glad you’re realizing that this accommodating is okay up to a certain point, but when it crosses over into self-negation and neglecting your own (legitimate) needs and boundaries, that’s when it becomes problematic.
I would be okay with him maintaining his friendship with Sarah if we came to a shared understanding of boundaries. I would not want to enforce boundaries for him that he does not agree with. While I know he would do it for me, heād be doing it for me.
So what if he were to do it for you? Let me give you an example: let’s say the woman is a bit of an anxious type and asks her partner to let her know that he safely arrived to his destination (say he’s traveling by car long-distance). The guy might think her request is a little silly, because he doesn’t have the same level of anxiety about traveling. But still, he humors her and lets her know that he arrived safely – because he loves her and doesn’t want her to worry. And it’s not an unreasonable request to ask for: it only takes a few seconds to send a text or call. So he empathizes with her and does it FOR her, even if he himself doesn’t see it necessary.
I think it’s totally okay that our partner sometimes does things FOR us, even if they themselves don’t see it as necessary. If our request is reasonable, of course. Your request (or plea) to at least refuse to listen to explicit details of Sarah’s numerous sexual encounters with men – is a very reasonable one. If he isn’t willing to respect it, it shows he isn’t really respecting you and your needs. It means that his need to stay in a “special” relationship with Sarah – with absolutely no boundaries – is greater than his love and respect for you.
And that’s when we come back to the question of why he has this need and why he cannot let go. (One possible reason is because being Sarah’s shoulder to cry on might give him a sense of importance and even self-worth. Or it might give him a sense of belonging. In any case, it fulfills an unmet need at the expense of a healthy, mutually respectful relationship with you.)
I do not want him to lose a meaningful friendship, but some boundaries (like the sexual details) are hard lines for me, so at the very least I would want to be understood on those.
It’s good that you’ve clarified it with yourself that sexual details are a red line for you, and that you wouldn’t be willing to compromise on that. Please keep this in mind when you decide to talk to Sam about it.
I think as long as I feel understood on why those things are upsetting to me, I would be able to move past this.
Yes, it would be good if he would understand you and respect your position, even if he sees no harm in listening to those sexual details. Being able to put ourselves in another person’s shoes and understand their pain is a sign of empathy.
He is an honest person by nature and has always been forthcoming with me. I trust him, and I donāt think heās trying to hide anything.
Yes, I guess the fact that he told you about the content of his chats with Sarah and the sexual details she is sharing with him is a testament to him not wanting to hide anything from you.
The only conclusion I can come to is that he genuinely doesnāt see why his behavior could be harmful to our relationship, and gets stuck defending his perspective.
Well, that’s worrisome. If he genuinely cannot empathize with you, that’s a problem. Or he might in other cases, but not in this one. If it’s the latter, it would show his own unhealthy attachment to Sarah, which causes him to have a blind spot in this particular issue.
part of my resentment towards Sam stems from not feeling like he truly values who I am ā reserved, conservative, introspective. While on some level these traits feel like core values to me, there is a part of me that feels insecure about not having the opposite qualities ā open, easy, free.
Are you reserved with him too? Are you sharing your emotions freely with him? Or you’re emotionally withdrawn and refuse to talk about your feelings?
From what you’ve shared so far, you’re not emotionally reserved with him. The fact that you’re not sharing every bit of your emotional and sexual intimacy with your other friends doesn’t make you deficient. He is trying to convince you that you’re deficient, but you’re not.
Where you do seem to be deficient in is self-esteem, as you said it yourself. You don’t value yourself and your qualities, but are allowing someone else (Sam) to tell you that you’re deficient. That something is wrong with you. That you need to “heal” – which would mean to let go of your boundaries and your core values.
I’m sorry but I don’t think Sam values you – he stubbornly refuses to see your point of view and keeps claiming that his behavior is healthy, and yours is deficient. That you’re not “open and free”, whereas her sharing of sexual details of her encounters with men is supposed to be “open, free and easy”?
It’s also interesting that he seems to judge men for a similarly promiscuous behavior like Sarah’s, but he doesn’t seem to judge her:
There are male acquaintances I have had that Sam has judged more harshly as well, for the same reasons. He feels he is naturally more qualified to make moral judgements for them, while he is more accepting of what externally appears to be the same actions from a female friend.
I have trouble accepting that Sam accepts and defends Sarah in her actions, because I donāt feel he values my conservatism and more emotionally reserved nature. How can he love and defend someone who rejects my core values?
He seems to have double standards: what is allowed for Sarah isn’t allowed for your male acquaintances. You also doubt that what he is allowing to himself (having such a level of emotional intimacy with Sarah) he would allow to you, even if he claims he would:
In our arguments he has insisted that he would not mind at all if I wanted to make more emotionally intimate male friends, but this I donāt believe. Heās very moralistic and tends to judge other men very harshly on matters of right/wrong. I can point to many signs he wouldnāt be okay with me having the same level of intimacy in a friendship with another man.
It seems he is strict and judgmental with some people, but very relaxed and full of understanding with other people – for the same kind of behavior.
I would take all of this into account, Ada. Also this what you said about your past relationships:
I have felt insecure in relationships before, but not anything I couldnāt reason through with my partner, and never to this extent.
So maybe it’s not up to you, but up to him?
July 19, 2025 at 8:04 am in reply to: Struggling to Heal from Past Hurts in My Marriage ā Advice? #447788
TeeParticipantDear Genesis,
I’m not sure if you’re going to read this, but I wanted to chip in and share my thoughts.
Your husband has been quite deceptive, because he never spoke openly with you about his dilemmas about you, and then he “confesses” them much later, when you’re already married. Or you have to hear from his groomsman on your wedding day that he was unsure if he should propose. Which must have been horribly painful – it’s not only completely insensitive from the groomsman to say such a thing in front of everyone (makes you wonder what kind of friends your husband has!), but also, for you to realize he wasn’t sure how he feels about you and whether he should marry you. Which is a huge betrayal and deception on his part. And humiliating as well.
How did you react to that public “revelation”? And what did he say in response?
More recently, he told me it wasnāt until after we got married that he felt truly connected to me and attracted to me. That hurt, because I thought we were both fully in at the time.
That’s another very hurtful “confession”. Even if he had his doubts in the past, but has resolved them since – he shouldn’t have mentioned it. Because it would only hurt you. A sensitive person, someone with empathy, would know this. And would never say such a thing.
The question is why he is doing it. Two options come to mind: one is that he has some internal insecurities (such as avoidant attachment style, which Anita mentioned), and he is sort of sabotaging the relationship because a part of him wants out.
Another, more worrisome explanation would be that he has narcissistic tendencies and does all that to put you down and make you feel insecure. That he is doing it on purpose to erode your self-esteem.
Your self-esteem has already suffered a lot due to his actions:
there are things heās said and done that have deeply wounded me … the pain still resurfaces, and I feel like my self-esteem took a hit I havenāt been able to recover from.
Iām carrying so much pain and confusion.
I canāt seem to shake the feeling that I was never fully wanted, or that Iāve been deceived more than once and will continue to be deceived.His words were indeed hurtful, and do require not only a sincere apology, but also an explanation of why he said what he said. Because it’s not just some insignificant little thing. Being insecure about you, and then still proceeding to marry you, shows something about him. Has he healed that? Has he faced himself? Do you feel he has changed? Or his apology is just performative and he keeps hiding things and/or surprising you with more hurtful “confessions”?
We decided we would not have children a few years ago. After about 1-2 years into that decision, he shared that he probably wants kids and thought that I would change my mind eventually. Since then he said heās decided he does not want kids⦠but itās hard to trust him.
It could be that he told you what you wanted to hear, and was hoping that you would change your mind later. But that’s deceptive. If he had admitted that he wanted children, and your preference is not to have children, then perhaps this might have been a deal breaker for you. But like this, he made you believe you two were compatible in this major life decision – and it turns out you’re not. And that the decision not to have children might not be his preference. In fact, he is vacillating again and changing his mind.
It’s almost like you believed you knew who he was, but he’s not that man. He’s not whom he portrayed himself to be. And that’s very unsettling.
I feel that he conceals things as a way to avoid conflict. He did the same thing after losing a significant amount of money day trading in the stock marketā¦thatās a whole other thing.
It could be that he was afraid of conflict in this particular case of losing money on the stock market. However, not being honest in crucial moments of his life, such as getting married, and crucial life issues, such as having children, is more than simply the fear of conflict. I think there is more to it.
I do hope you’ll be able to get to the bottom of this, and also be able to restore your self-esteem.
How are you feeling at the moment, Genesis? Is the couple’s therapy helping?
TeeParticipantDear Ada,
I said at the beginning of this that your message says what I wanted to hear, but I think itās also what I needed to hear. I needed to know that, at the very least, I am not being unreasonable, and that someone in a similar situation could come to the same conclusions. I think that validation alone will help me in whatever direction this situation resolves in. Thank you.
you’re welcome, Ada! I feel your struggle and your sincere attempts to be fair and objective, to not cause harm or be unfair to Sam. You want to respect him fully and take into account his perspective. You don’t want to hurt him, you don’t want your “selfishness” to limit him in any way.
You’re open to self-reflection and introspection, and if I understood well, your goal is to improve yourself and become a better person (“the question is really what I can accept in a relationship, and what growth for me looks like”.).
I must say that my impression is that Sam is not equally open to self-reflection and introspection. Instead of at least considering that his daily contact and round-the-clock immersion in Sarah’s life and problems might not the healthiest way to live – especially if you are in a relationship with another person – he keeps claiming that that’s the ideal kind of relationship:
Sam would say that the level of intimacy he has with Sarah is healthy, and even desirable, in a best friend, and that Iām the one who needs to be healed
This is how immersed he was in her life at one point:
“He messaged her constantly, every day, talking on the phone at least once a week, or whenever something was hard to explain over text. Heād talk to her about everything that was going on in his daily life, things that happened at work, body pains, Amazon purchases, arguments with family members, memes he found⦠whatever he was doing at the moment. … basically, if he wasnāt talking to me or doing something else, he was messaging her”.And then he calls you codependent on him, when in fact his behavior could be qualified as codependent on Sarah.
He is claiming that it would be completely normal and desirable to share all of the details of your life with other people (your friends), and not just him:
Sam would say this isnāt ideal, wouldnāt I want to be able to share all the details about my daily life to other people and not just him? I understand where he is coming from, but I suppose I just donāt feel much of that need.
No, a normal person wouldn’t want to share each moment of their life with multiple people. It’s not by chance that people live in couples, not in threesomes (unless they are practicing polyamory). It’s instinctual for us humans to deeply share with one particular person, whom we call our life partner. It’s not common to treat your life partner the same as your friends, minus the sex.
His idea of what a romantic partnership means seems very distorted. And you, unfortunately, have too much understanding for him. You say you understand where he is coming from. And I guess that’s because you want to be super fair to him, super understanding and empathic. You don’t want to hurt him.
But the problem is that his ideas are upside down, and hurtful to you. You don’t need to accept and justify them. You don’t need to try to understand (and tolerate) something that goes against your instincts and your better judgement. Even against common sense, I’d say.
It seems to me he has been gaslighting you and made you doubt yourself. You said:
My self-doubt, however, asks me if itās just the one that I want to hear.
A part of you wanted to give up on your instincts and intuition and convince yourself that your needs are selfish. That you’re depriving him of his friendships. When you told him you don’t feel respected, he told you he doesn’t feel respected by you:
Me: I believe that you view her as a close friend, but the amount of emotional intimacy you have shared with her and want to share with her feels like a violation of our relationship. I feel like you donāt respect me or our relationship in the same way I do.
Him: I donāt feel respected either. I care about Sarah like a sister, itās not fair to me it has to be like this. A close friendship should be emotionally intimate. Why does that have to take away from the intimacy of our relationship?He repeated his same twisted belief that friendships should be equally emotionally intimate as romantic partnerships, and put the blame on you: you’re trying to limit me, you don’t know what a true friendship is, you’re the one who needs healing, you don’t respect me.
Regarding the explicit descriptions of Sarah’s sexual encounters, you had a strong feeling about that:
I wouldnāt want to hear about explicit details (Iām talking about sexual acts, details at the level of genitalia) from even a close female friend, no matter how funny, and I honestly find Sarahās behavior disgusting on many levels.
And that’s a normal reaction: you wouldn’t want to hear about explicit sexual details even from a close female friend. But Sam convinced you, and you started justifying it, that it is somehow okay for Sarah to keep telling him about her sexual encounters, because it’s funny, and therefore harmless or something:
He genuinely does not think it is strange to be hearing about her sexual conquests or whatnot. At least in instances heās shared with me, these intimate details seem to have been shared because they were funny, and maybe thatās why Sam doesnāt find it uncomfortable. And to be fair, itās not like she is asking him for sex advice, sheās just telling him what happened.
You see? You tried your best to justify his condoning of Sarah’s vulgar talk and not batting an eye about it – whereas in truth, you feel disgusted by it and find it morally objectionable. You tried to suppress your instinct and your better judgment in order to humor him and accept his unacceptable behavior.
Please don’t take it as judgment and criticism of you – I don’t mean it like that at all. It’s more that I’m rather upset by his gaslighting and twisting of things to the point of confusing you and making you doubt your better judgment.
In a sense, while Iād label his behavior as enmeshment with a friend, heād label mine as codependency with him. Of course, these are just labels and exaggerated, and a healthy relationship is somewhere in the middle. But the point still stands that we have two different perspectives that are both valid, and finding middle ground in the gray areas is challenging.
Well, I don’t think that both of your perspectives are valid. You don’t strike me as codependent on him. You simply want a normal healthy relationship. Whereas he has strange ideas about what a healthy intimate relationship is. And he’s trying to force those ideas on you, making you doubt yourself.
As a result, you started believing that truth is somewhere in the middle, and that you should find a compromise. Luckily, your inner voice is strong enough and didn’t want to accept a compromise on things that shouldn’t be compromised on, such as your core values. And I encourage you not to accept such a compromise – where you compromise your core values.
I’m sorry if I sound “strict”, but I feel he’s gaslighting you, and I really don’t like it. I don’t know how you feel about what I’ve said? Please, don’t take it as judgment, but as sounding an alarm bell. Maybe I’m exaggerating, but I felt the need to speak up.
TeeParticipantDear Confusedasf,
I’m so happy that you’re feeling better and resolved to work on yourself, go on “dates with yourself” (very apt term, btw!) and explore the world through new eyes. Sounds like a great plan – I’m excited for you!
Yes, he never blamed me on anything, also never said his relapse was because of us fighting/breaking up or anything related. He is a very nice person with his own family/career struggles and also alcoholic families. I feel very bad for him, as a kind, nice person, he deserves better life than this and I wanted to help really bad, but now I know i canāt help or fix anything. He also never blamed me for leaving, by the time we ended things, he said: āIām surprised you put up with me for so long, you should look out for yourself more.ā and he also told me how badly he wanted to have a future with me, thatās also part of the reason he stressed out a lot because he wants to provide.
Yes, he does seem like a good person, with lots of self-awareness, and willingness to take responsibility for his own actions. I do hope that with time, he will give himself a chance at healing and turning the page in his life.
I think Iām less confused now, because the direction is quite clear. I will work on myself until Iām ready to date again, then I will see if my heart still goes towards him, if so I canāt fight with myself, i will make a move. If not, then I will start exploring again
Sounds like a great plan! I truly hope you strengthen your connection with yourself and then decide how you feel and what to do next. And I fully trust that you’ll do it, because girl, you do sound determined. And unstoppable! š
But yeah, as Anita said, be patient with yourself, give yourself a lot of compassion. It will take time, but you’re getting there…
Wishing you all the best on your solo trip(s), and if there’s an update, or anything, I’ll be happy to read.
Good luck and Godspeed! <3
TeeParticipantDear Ada,
Youāre welcome! I’m glad you were able to express your internal conflict and the dichotomy in understanding/accepting Samās actions. And that you see this internal conflict so clearly.
Perhaps the most important question you’re asking is this:
The level of emotional intimacy Sam has with Sarah I would consider romantic. These are my boundaries. But I genuinely believe that Sam does not consider it romantic ā he doesnāt feel romantic feelings for her. So if I believe this about Sam, does it even matter that I consider it romantic? Am I the one who is not able to honor his feelings due to my own selfishness? I have asked myself these questions in circles, only to be more confused and conflicted.
So youāre asking: if he sees no harm in being emotionally intimate with Sarah, and he has a need to have that level of closeness, and he sees it as completely innocent ā who am I to judge him? Who am I to require him to change his emotional sharing with Sarah? Am I not the selfish one in this story?
And my answer is: no, you’re not selfish. And the reason is that his emotional connection with Sarah is more like enmeshment. Enmeshment is not the same as love. It’s a distorted version of love and caring for someone.
What seems to be happening is that Sarah, as you said, is an emotionally wounded person with her own issues, which probably cause her to be promiscuous and engage in the kind of relationships with men that in the past have led to 2 unwanted pregnancies:
Sheās flirtatious, promiscuous
She will call him crying about problems in her relationships, and he consoles her. Sheās always having problems in her relationships as sheās emotionally damaged,
So what I believe is happening is that instead of working on herself and changing those unhealthy patterns, she is repeating those behaviors again and again, and then running to Sam for comfort and consolation. She uses him as her shoulder to cry on, her confidante and perhaps her therapist.
I don’t know if he’s ever suggested her to seek therapy (which is what she would need), but clearly, he’s not really helping her heal those patterns. He is kind of enabling her by listening to her “love troubles” and even her explicit descriptions of sex with other men. That’s neither therapeutic nor does it serve any helpful purpose. And as Alessa said, “Some people do over share their sexual exploits as a way of flirting.”
By allowing her to come to him with the same problems over and over again, he is actually enabling her, rather than giving her friendly support. Because a good friend would tell her to seek professional help.
Sam did grow up lonely and not feeling like he belonged. There is a part of him that wants to seek out friendships like a child. What I view as blatant boundary violations he views as acts of an ideal friendship, a sense of connection that he didnāt have growing up. I believe too that an ideal friendship should be one where we can feel unconditionally accepted and safe.
We can unconditionally accept someone as a person, but we can have issues with a particular behavior. If you ask me, listening to her sexual escapades is not a sign of friendly love and care, but I believe, of enabling and weak boundaries. Do you know if he feels comfortable hearing such things, or only listens out of politeness?
Sam reaches for emotional connection with other people and me in a way that I have not seen from other men I have dated. Iām conflicted on this, because his emotionality is one of the reasons I love Sam so deeply ā besides this issue with Sarah, our relationship has been emotionally vulnerable, honest, and loving.
Thatās good to hear. So he is someone who talks about his feelings openly, with you too. You don’t feel like he’s hiding something from you, or not expressing what he’s really feeling.
At the same time, his constant seeking of attention, validation, and need for deep emotional connection with other people is also what pushes me away from him in this case.
Okay, so you recognize that his need for having emotional intimacy with multiple other people ā the kind of intimacy that is usually reserved for a romantic relationship – is probably fueled by an unmet emotional need. This could be his inner child seeking belonging, and achieving that by being enmeshed with others emotionally, and not being able to set appropriate boundaries.
But if so, still, it’s an unmet need, and would need to be healed, rather than accepted as his style, as him having a different “emotional map”. His map is different because he is missing something, and he would need to heal that in order to have truly healthy relationships. At least that’s how I see it.
So I still believe you’re not selfish for wanting him to set boundaries with Sarah, and in general, for wanting him to have a different level of intimacy with you than he has with his friends.
You said he had a similar kind of dysfunctional childhood as Sarah (“Sheās experienced similar dysfunctional family dynamics in her upbringing and Sam bonded with her over that.”). Has he worked on his childhood issues in therapy? Is he open to that?
TeeParticipantDear Confusedasf,
you’re very welcome! I’m happy you’re feeling better now than when you first started sharing <3
Iām just happy that heās doing okay, and Iāve kind of moved on with my life. …really wish him the best, and hopefully, he can get back on his feet soon and have everything he deserves.
This is so emotionally mature of you – not holding any grudges against him and wishing him all the best.
we had this conversation towards the end of the relationship where he told me on a scale of 1-10, he trusted me & felt safe with me at 9. Thatās also probably why, after we broke up, he still had the strength to tell me how much he misses me. But I never felt that level of trust or safety with him. I had so much doubt after breaking up, so much self-doubt, doubt of the relationship, wondering if he loves me or not, wondering if everything is just me being delusional. But he told me directly and raw about his feelings soothed my mind and my heart deeply.
That’s good to know. It seems he didn’t have a problem with you – he probably understood that you’re not asking too much of him (e.g. to meet regularly and spend time together). However, he had/has multiple other issues in his life, which he doesn’t know how to handle well and then he resorts to drinking, and that’s his downfall.
He probably has enough self-awareness to admit that. It doesn’t make it any easier on the relationship though, because as it turned out, it’s hard for him to function with that level of stress and a drinking problem. But at least he’s not blaming you for leaving him.
Also, kind of stopped being paranoid about him moving on or having lots of doubts about us. Because I do believe whatever we had is real, just none of us are capable of having it, tho, it doesnāt make whatever we had any less real.
That’s also an important realization. You did feel love for each other, and a lot of compatibility, but due to emotional issues on both sides, you couldn’t make it work. Specially issues on his side, with him isolating himself from you and resorting to drinking when under stress.
Iām grateful that he is so straightforward about his emotions,even tho he has a hard time expressing his struggle, but he always tells me how much he loves me and misses me.
Yeah, it seems he has trouble expressing his fears and worries, and the reason, as I said earlier, could be that he doesn’t want to upset you. But also it might be his style – not being able to share his struggle openly, but feeling the need to suffer alone (and then self-medicating). That might have been his pattern since childhood. Anyway, he seems to be aware of it and not blaming you, but only having kind words about you.
Things start to get busy, and Iāve started to challenge myself by not reaching out when I freak out or feel anxious. Iāve also started planning a solo trip so that I can be alone without relying on anyone. Not easy, Iād say itās hard. therically, I know whatās the ārightā thing to do, how to regulate it, but again, itās really hard to transfer that into action, and without a person to test it out, I highly doubt if Iād āRelapseā or not lol. Again and because of this, I know none of us is ready.
That’s great that you’re challenging yourself not to reach out to him as soon as you feel anxious. You’re challenging yourself to become more self-reliant and break those old patterns. Which is great! But it’s okay to seek help, which you are already doing through therapy and also here.
If you have a good, supportive friend, you could perhaps invite them to one of those trips, because it might be overwhelming to do it all on your own. It’s okay to have support while you’re learning to become more self-reliant.
I donāt mind being the person to make the first move, but not now. Iām not ready personally, I donāt want to push anything when Iām not ready. Maybe in another two months, I feel more confident handling my own emotions and giving the support my partner deserves, Iād reach out with a clear purpose to either open the conversation or close it completely.
That’s a really healthy approach. You need to be more safe and secure in yourself before giving the relationship another chance. You don’t want to fall into the old patterns. Which is super mature of you. Kudos to you, Confused! In fact, I think you’re not so confused anymore, you know what you want and what you’re working towards. You’ve actually got pretty good clarity. And I am so happy for you, and also impressed with you!
Just keep doing what you’re doing, slowly but surely, with lots of compassion for yourself. And keep seeking help and support, like you’re already doing.
If you have an update or anything to talk about, I am here.
Take care! <3
TeeParticipantDear Ada,
one more thing:
Sam has said that perhaps there is a cultural difference at play here. He moved to the US when he was 10 years old from Europe (France, specifically), and he has suggested that European culture is more accepting of opposite-sex friendships, whereas American culture is suspicious of them. This stereotype seems to exist in my mind as well, but how true it is in reality Iām not sure.
I’m from Europe and I wouldn’t say European culture is more accepting of opposite-sex friendships, particularly if they involve a level of emotional intimacy that resembles a romantic relationship. If we talk about stereotypes, maybe someone from Southern Europe is more emotionally expressive than someone from Northern Europe, but very intimate opposite-sex friendships are not common at all.
One positive thing he said is this: Iāve never talked about our relationship to her.
If he’s not complaining about your relationship to her, or discussing intimate details of your relationship, that’s a good thing. Because that’s one of the main signs of emotional infidelity, i.e. emotional affair.
But still, even if he’s not discussing your relationship, being so emotionally attached to her to the point of discussing her sexual encounters with other men crosses the boundary of even good taste. There’s no reason for him to listen to those intimate details, even she wants to share it.
He would need to set a boundary at least on that, and if he isn’t willing, the question is why. Why he feels the need to engage in that type of sharing, and then to claim there is nothing wrong about it.
TeeParticipantDear Ada,
I’m glad you feel validated regarding what you’re feeling in this situation.
I meant that he had been friends with this woman for 5 years before we started dating. I apologize, I realize my original post may have been confusing.
Actually, after I posted, it did occur to me that I might have gotten that wrong, because you said “He has had a female best friend for around 5 years, before we started dating.” I guess the comma is what confused me, and I’m not a native speaker š So apologies for that!
In that case, forget the first part of my post. They did have plenty of time to develop a friendship and have a lot of shared memories. There’s no question about that.
But the rest still stands, I’m afraid.
Sam, on the other hand, is much more keen on keeping in close contact with his friends. He has two male friends that he constantly messages on a daily basis, usually about funny things that happened during the day or video games/politics.
What’s just occurred to me is that texting Sarah on a daily basis or sending her funny cat memes could be similar to chatting/sending stuff to his male friends on a daily basis. It could be that he has the need to share those things, perhaps to get validation/praise about how funny those videos are? It could be that he likes to get positive feedback, which kind of feeds him.
And you’ve already touched on that with Anita:
At my worst, I start to think maybe he enjoys playing the āboyfriendā role to her ādamsel in distressā ā that it serves as a non-sexual but slightly romantic ego boost and heās just not aware of it.
It could be that his close connection with Sarah (and other close friends) is about feeling important and receiving positive attention. Being her shoulder to cry on might be not only about him being a good friend who is selflessly helping his best friend, but also about feeling important and valued for providing that help – which might be partially an ego thing. Him wanting to feel needed. Him wanting to feel important.
So maybe he has the need to feel important and receive attention on a daily basis from multiple people. Which would be an ego need. An ego need is per definition selfish, because we don’t care if we hurt our partner in the process of meeting it. We simply crave attention, and we go for it. So this is what could be happening.
If that’s the case, then it would make sense that he wouldnāt be sensitive to your needs, but would only care about himself. True, he did reduce the frequency of his contacts with Sarah, however he still believes you are depriving him of something. He still craves that attention, but claims that he is “sacrificing” himself for you. But at the same he’s resenting you.
And indeed, based on the imagined conversation you had with him in your head, he is very defensive and keeps claiming that your needs are unreasonable and that you’re being ridiculous.
Maybe he indeed doesn’t have any sexual or romantic intentions with Sarah, but still, his need to engage in this type of conversations (very intimate, even uncomfortably intimate, on a daily basis) might come from his ego. Which is selfish and inconsiderate to you.
But he is unwilling to admit any selfishness on his part. He is also unwilling to empathize with you and see your point of view. He is dismissing your concerns. And that’s pretty worrying. It’s not a healthy way to communicate.
I wonder how is the level of emotional intimacy between you and Sam? I mean in other issues, apart from Sarah (which seems to be the bone of contention between you), do you feel that you can share openly with Sam? Do you feel comfortable to share your hopes, fears, dreams, desires? And reversely, is he open and vulnerable with you?
Because it might be just this one area where he is defensive and has a blind spot, or it could be in more than one area.
I imagine this is a best case for such a conversation, where anger doesnāt get the best of either of us, but still weāre unable to make any progress.
Yes, because he is not open to hearing you. He is dismissing your concerns. You cannot reach a compromise if one party is denying that their behavior might be hurtful to the other party. And I can tell you that your concerns are not baseless. You’re not being unreasonable in what you’re asking of him.
Iāve never had success arguing for the role that I think Sarah actually plays in his life, because ultimately only he can know this.
Her role might be actually, as you said as well, a provider of a strong ego-boost for him, so that he can feel needed, important, valued and perhaps get attention.
How can I be communicating better, or should I accept that we have different core values/beliefs about relationships that simply make us incompatible?
If he’s not willing to admit that he has a blind spot, and that his interaction with Sarah might not be completely selfless, I’m afraid you won’t be able to reach a compromise. It all depends on whether he is willing to face himself and be honest with himself.
TeeParticipantDear Confusedasf,
good to hear from you! And please don’t apologize if you feel confused – that’s totally okay.
Iām not sure whatās going on now. We broke up, but he misses me, I miss him, neither of us hinted at anything of moving forward or anything else. We are just stuck in the stage of missing each other. What is this?
Well, for you I think it is the realization that if something doesn’t change fundamentally, there will more of the same if you get back together. You said it here:
I donāt want to sit in the false hope thinking he might feel better, and we might get back together.
And you’re right! Just because he told you he’s currently not drinking and is feeling better doesn’t mean that he won’t relapse when things get stressful again. Because that has been his pattern:
he has a drinking problem, when stress overflows, he relapses, which makes his life even more out of control.
People with a long-standing drinking problem cannot just get sober without any therapy and any internal work. What he is telling you now:
He is sober now and itās hard, but he believes that he got this and have the faith in himself to stay sober.
… is unfortunately wishful thinking. He cannot pull himself up by his own bootstraps. He needs external help. Sooner or later he will feel stressed out and will relapse.
If he keeps refusing therapy, it means he is not willing to face himself and his trauma just yet. He is not willing to self-reflect and do the necessary steps to get better – like you’re doing. And this isn’t really sustainable because it won’t make for a healthy relationship.
He told you he misses you more than before, and that it’s actually because he is sober:
he misses me a lot especially now heās sober, he misses more than before.
But without any therapy, he will relapse again and then he won’t miss you. He will seek consolation in the bottle – and that’s when he doesn’t need anyone. It’s like that with alcoholism or any other addiction, unfortunately.
I donāt want to know that we both miss each other, but thereās nothing we can do about it.
You both can do something about it – you’re already doing your part (self-reflection, therapy), but he seems not to be willing to do his part. He is fooling himself that he can do it on his own.
Unless he is willing to seek help, he is not really “doing anything about it”. He’s not doing anything towards you two getting back together in a healthier way.
He didn’t even offer to get back together, maybe because a part of him knows he isn’t able to remain sober. Maybe he is leaving it to you to make the first move. But if I were you, I wouldn’t. Your response to him was perfect, actually:
I responded that knowing he is doing better makes me happy, shared a little about my life, how I reflected and learning how to deal with myself and my emotions. told him I miss him as well and hope everything goes well with him.
And you can leave it at that. The truth is that unless he seeks help, everything will not go well with him. But he needs to make that decision. Right now, he seems not willing to, since he already cancelled therapy twice and now he’s claiming he’s strong enough to push through it by himself.
With that, he basically told you his stance on therapy and facing himself, getting more self-awareness and all that. He’s not willing to go through it at this point. He’s almost like telling you “these are my conditions.” And he’s leaving it up to you whether to take it (i.e. seek reconciliation) or leave it.
That’s what I think is going on. He told you his conditions, and he’s not making the first move. He is leaving it up to you.
And my advice is not to take it… because it will be just more of the same….
Let me know your feelings about all of this…
And in the meanwhile, take care <3
TeeParticipantDear Ada,
I’ve just read your posts, and I agree with Anita that what your boyfriend has with “Sarah” seems like emotional infidelity.
To me, several things stood out as potential red flags. First, this:
They have been close friends for a long time, theyāve met each others families, they have a lot of shared memories together.
Youāve been with him for 4 years, since 2021. Sheās known him since 2020, just one year longer. 2020 was the year the pandemic started, and everything shut down. When did they have time to make all those “shared memories” and for their parents to visit each other, when social gatherings were practically non-existent? Were they hanging at each other’s place all the time? Did he tell you anything about those shared memories with her?
He’s describing her as almost a childhood friend, someone he’s known for a long time, and yet, it’s been a mere one year longer than he knows you. Besides, soon after you two met, you went on a road trip across the country, which lasted till recently. So practically, he hasn’t seen her since 4 years or so.
It’s also weird that in that same year, 2020, he met her, became such a good friends with her, to the point of accompanying her to 2 abortions and being her main emotional support – greater than any of her female friends, which she had presumably known much longer than him.
This entire time span is more than weird to me, and to be honest, raises suspicion.
Other red flags I’ve noticed is him being uninterested in movies and TV shows when you suggested them, but then immediately watching them as soon as she recommended them (“I would recommend TV shows/movies and heād never watch them, but would watch them as soon as she recommended the same ones“). It seems he cares about her opinion and wants to please her. While he doesn’t show the same kind of care and concern for you.
Or the fact that he didn’t want to apply for a job at your company, but rather chose to work with her (“When he needed to find a new job, I offered he could work at my company, but instead he chose to work with her (it never actually panned out, but I feel the hurt still”)).
Regarding that job situation, you said:
I tell myself he didnāt chose her, he was just afraid of being rejected for a job I referred him to, or that heās hesitant to take my recommendations because the stakes are higher with me, and heās anxious. Heād agree with me here, but I still resent him for it.
What do you mean by saying that the stakes are higher with you? Do you mean he would feel under more pressure to perform at your company, than working with her/at her company?
Also, the fact that he is sending her the same funny cat memes that he is sending you is rather disturbing as well. It’s like treating both of you the same ā sort of having the same kind of emotional bond (or even a closer one) with her than with you, which is definitely not okay for an intimate relationship.
He is trying to convince you that there’s nothing strange about his relationship with this woman, but the way I see it, thatās not true.
In our arguments he has insisted that he would not mind at all if I wanted to make more emotionally intimate male friends, but this I donāt believe.
It seems he is accusing you of not wanting to be emotionally intimate with your male friends, as a way to justify his too enmeshed relationship with his female friend. He claims that his style is the real friendship, while you are somehow deficient (“he thinks an ideal friendship is one that is emotionally intimate”). And yet at the same time, he was nervous about introducing her, because he was afraid it wouldnāt seem as platonic as he claims it to be:
He was nervous about introducing us because he was afraid I might not view their relationship as platonic as he did.
And that was in the beginning of your relationship, when you didnāt have such a strong resistance to their friendship. Which means that a part of him knew that how they interact (or at least how she interacts with him) may not be seen as purely innocent, like a brother and sister connection. Specially since there was sexual tension between them:
He has admitted that at first there was underlying sexual tension in their relationship, but over time it has faded to nonexistent.
I learned that they met because she thought my boyfriend was attractive and flirted with him. Boyfriend never reciprocated and is adamant she no longer has these intentions, and Iām inclined to believe him, but I feel weird about it.
He is now claiming that this sexual tension (which allegedly came only from her and wasn’t reciprocated) is now all gone. But I wouldn’t be so sure about that, because sexual attraction doesn’t fade so easily, especially if he is such an emotional support to her.
What is for sure is that at the time you were supposed to meet her, he felt anxious because he wasn’t sure what you’d conclude about the nature of their relationship. So there was something off after all ā even in his eyes.
Since he is so adamant now that everything is pure and innocent, it could be that he is fooling even himself, not wanting to admit the nature of their relationship. But in doing that, he is also gaslighting you about the nature of their relationship, making it seem like your problem of not being tolerant and accepting enough, and denying that it is actually him who has a problem (e.g. of setting boundaries with her).
As I said, I don’t like his stance of accusing you of being not intimate enough with your male friends, as a way of justifying his excessive intimacy with Sarah.
I’m pretty sure that you’re not unreasonable for wanting some boundaries in their relationship. You’re not unreasonable for wanting a different level of emotional intimacy with your partner than the one you have with your friends. If he is telling you otherwise, then he’s gaslighting you. And that’s a form of emotional abuse.
I hope this helps you further in gaining clarity.
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