Dear Anita,

I just read your reply, I will respect your request to not speak of N. I will let you know if things end, but that is it.

I am definitely taking what you say very seriously, and will further decide for myself and I appreciate your wisdom.

On the chakras and auras, I don’t have extensive knowledge, but I have been told I have a white aura, I read about it on https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/what-does-white-aura-mean-lowdown-on-this-rare-aura . It brought me some insight. I hope I find the clarity I need soon.

I hope we have further conversation soon,

Seaturtle and hatchling

Anita, do you think it is true that people can only meet you as deeply as they’ve met themselves?

This would concern me, as I do want a deep relationship. Or could I just be deep within myself and not need that from a partner.

My, the night went differently than I could have expected!

So after our last argument, me feeling he was being passive aggressive and heavily concerned he was gaslighting me he suggested a prompt for our date last night. 1-How will you change to better the relationship, 2-what do you appreciate about the other person, 3-how could the other person change to help you/the relationship.

I was so anxious, knowing it could be the last night of our relationship, and he definitely felt that from me.

So he picked me up on time, and we went to an Italian restaurant. We sat down and had a glass of wine and some appetizers and after some small talk decided to start our answers to the date questions. 1-How will you change to better the relationship: He started, he said he was going to start taking better care of himself, his home cleanliness and eating habits, things that he said went astray when I left! I had no idea he realized this but he had been slacking in the hygiene area of his life after I left. Definitely bleeding into our relationship and I appreciated this answer, he had clearly thought about it and answered with something that was not easy to admit. It was my turn and I forgot my answer… I was so focused on question 3 that I put less focus into 1, which is sad but I understand why, because I am doing so much for the relationship here so it was hard for me to even come up with something MORE I could be doing, as I am already exhausted trying to see the situation for what it is.

2- I said “You encourage me to do what I love to do” and I had a second one “You are willing to try to communicate and don’t like going to sleep upset with eachother” a few nights ago we had a phone argument about money, it was a miscommunication on both sides and when we figured it out he said he wanted to come over to cuddle up and I just appreciate that he likes to hug or be loving after an argument, it makes me feel safe.

He said “I really like that you keep us present, even when we are doing nothing it is at least present with you.” I appreciated that he noticed this, I did not know that he did.

And the dreaded 3. He didn’t even get to his answer here because I started and it took up the rest of our night. I was proud of myself though, because I was able to speak clearly and I did not allow him to gaslight me again, which he was trying to do. However I have a new perspective now, here is how it went. I know you warned against telling him he was gaslighting me, but I was confident enough to be firm in this and confront him, agreeing with myself that if he denied it it would be over. I started by talking about my dad, I said:

“When I was young, my dad gaslit be constantly. With my car, with everything he ever gave me or provided for me. He genuinely gaslit me very intensely. This is not something I can put up with in a relationship, and when you tell me the things I ‘worry’ about don’t matter, it is gaslighting. I reminded him of the cash in the grocery story again, and told him that when I approached him about this after and he was “unbothered” and acted like nothing was wrong, that this was gaslighting.” He asked questions about what gaslighting even was and I was very precise about it. He went on to gaslight me again about this situation, he said “it was a joke” and I said “no it was not. It was not. I remember it correctly and see this twisting of my reality is not okay. My life partner should not be making me doubt myself.” He nodded at this seeming to begin to understand or at least try. I went on about how damaging the victim of being gaslit can be. He did say, and is concerning but I am still evaluating the night, we are still together and I am still deciding how I should deal with this, but end of our night he said something that made me really have a new perspective about everything, I will tell you in order of how everything happened though. He said “Do you think the victim is always right?” I was soooo skeptical of him in this moment, what on earth does that mean I said. He replied “So every time you feel a certain way it is my fault?” And this is where I am glad I was speaking through my higher self because I did not foresee this kind of questioning. I said “Not necessarily but that is not what I am talking about. I am telling you that the cash situation was not a joke at all, it was serious, I did not feel anxious for no reason, you were investigating me” He shook his head no, he did not understand what I was saying and he defended himself left and right. I said “you are deflecting responsibility.” I went on to tell him the gravity of gaslighting, after understanding that he genuinely did not socially understand how what he did was impactful to me, he literally did not understand how I could take his reaction as if he was investigating or judging me at all. I said “There’s multiple issues here, but it sounds like it is starting with you literally having a lack of awareness about how you come across. For example, the other day when you called me at work and I asked how your day was you went on to say ‘oh it was such an easy day, just 9-5 today and I have so much time, damn that is such an easy schedule,’ I was on the other line like, does he not realize I work from 10-5? is he being extremely passive aggressive, what is his deal? I literally sat on the other line thinking you were completely oblivious and decided to ignore it as you do that sometimes, and more often recently.” When I went on about this example he looked completely defeated, he said something along the lines of “I had no idea I came across that way.” I genuinely believed him, he looked completely stunned at all that I was saying, he stopped trying to defend it, aka further gaslight me. But I continued “Gaslighting is not something i can deal with, it is so scary and confusing for me when I feel like you are telling me something I intuitively felt, did not happen. That is so damaging to who I am you cannot do that to me because the scary thing is sometimes I will believe you! and I will take responsibility for things that are not mine to take, and you will put me down” He said “I don’t mean to be manipulative I-” I interrupted and said “it doesn’t matter if it is on accident because at the end of the day it puts me down. This is a huge area of incompatibility. You are over here socially unaware of how you are coming across to me, then me, as a sensitive being, gets my feelings hurt by you. Then I approach you and you think you did nothing wrong because you weren’t even aware of it. Do you see how we would just wear eachother down here? You feel accused all the time and don’t understand, and I have my feelings hurt and denied.” At this point we both had tears in our eyes. I think we both knew it could be ending right there. I said “There can be a solution, but it has to be you increasing your awareness of how you are treating me so that you either stop, or when I approach you about it you can at least see it, and not deny my feelings, which ultimately is you gaslighting me.” The conversation in the restaurant ended here. He got quiet and looked in shock and defeated and hopeless. I said “babe you can’t shut down on me now” and he said he wanted to leave the restaurant. I looked around and they were closing up, so we got the check and then separately went to the bathroom, when I came back I hugged him, unplanned I think I knew he needed it and he hugged me more delicately than he ever has, he didn’t even fully grab me, he just had one hand through my hair and the other lightly on my back, accepting my hug. I imagined that he was about to cry in that moment, but as soon as I looked at him there was no trace of the tears.

We got in the car to go home and the conversation continued. And this is the part of the night that changed my perspective on what kind of man I have in front of my and how I now just have a decision if this is what I am willing to accept in a partner. It was as vulnerable as I have seen him, only a handful of times. His bestfriend, we will call D, has been very close with N. The funny thing is actually D and I get along very well, our fathers are almost identical, so we understand eachother well. I like hanging out with D and N, it is a fun trio the three of us, D is able to explain N to me. They were college roommates and played football together, and now play video games online and on the phone with eachother multiple times a week since I moved out. When I lived there he did not play much at all, once a month maybe. On the phone, N has told me that D helps him understand me and they are eachothers support in a lot of ways. Anyways so, we are in the care, me and N, driving home and continue our conversation and he says (perhaps looking away from me helps him to open up…this may be becoming a pattern)

“I feel so hopeless because everything you just told me about my lack of awareness, D just told me the same time and has been telling me for a while now.” This was so validating to me I was glad that I was not the only one! He went on to say “this is what I have meant when I told you I don’t like first impressions. being homeschooled messed me up. I don’t understand how to read people and I definitely did not understand body language for a long time and had to learn. In football coaches often told me I was apathetic and I had no idea what they meant because I was in love with the sport, how could they say that. But it was becoming a pattern of people telling me this, so I knew I needed to change something. I had to learn how to show coaches that I wanted to be there. D tells me all the time that I have no awareness, it has been a joke amongst my friends for years. I don’t like first impression because I don’t know how to behave, and I don’t know how to read other people’s behavior. I am retarded or something I don’t know.”

I was absolutely wowed, just had the biggest “ah ha” moment. He LITERALLY did not know how was coming across, all those times I thought he was being passive aggressive and said I was too sensitive… he seriously thought I was, he was not trying to deny my feelings. This alleviated a weight off my shoulders that he was being purposely rude to me. I received a heavy dose of grace for him in this moment. The fact all his close football friends said the same thing about him… Something about learning all this made me realize that his validation of me feelings literally does not matter, he doesn’t understand them at all he is the last person I should be seeking validation from. I was right, I can trust my own intuition that he was saying rude things. But it is also validating to my confusion, because I have been so confused, he has been “rude” in the strangest times when I am like why are you ruining this moment? and then he will say why are you ruining this moment by brining this stupid thing up. It just all makes sense now, because at his core he is so sweet and gentle so this gaslighting about his rudeness did not make sense in my head to his character and now I realize the issue is so much deeper in him and engrained in him long before me and nothing to do with me. I know you have assured me of this but I was able to see it first hand. Feeling relieved the night actually completely turned around and was much lighter. My grace for his literal much deeper problem lightened the way I was questioning him, I went from skepticism and sternness to genuine curiosity. Remembering you mentioning this before I did ask him “have you ever looked up online how to behave?” He said “No” he was kind of grossed out by the question, he said “I don’t want people to respond superficially to me” which this answer does fall into what I know of his character, and the answer I sort of assumed.

This new realization that he just has some social awareness issues, perhaps some sort of mental illness here I felt compassion and maybe I could learn to love this about him, and be able to take his comments less personally. I wondered why the universe brought us together, I am no doubt exactly the type of partner he needs, but is this something I can love about him and help him? I think further learning is needed for me to decide now that my perspective of the situation is different due to his actual intentions being pure.

Laying on my bed I continued to ask him questions. I asked “when you are inadvertently rude how should I approach it? because I don’t want you to say rude things to me and want to know why, but I hesitate cause I don’t want to annoy you” and he said “just ask me with no emotion in your questioning. when I come across rude to others I am usually actually just upset with myself about something” I was like “oh so when you make rude comments to me you are really making them to yourself?” This was a new concept to him he said “huh..” and I said “hurt people hurt people, it makes sense.”

curious to hear your reply to this,

Seaturtle

Dear Anita,

“I feel like he was not always this way and I fear I turned him into..“- his father and mother turned him into what he is during his Formative Years aka his childhood, when he was formed. He met you after his formative years. You do not have this kind of power over him.

-This is helpful. But then I fell in love with someone who cannot help but to gaslight me? What a tragic love story, to be or not to be.

“confused about whether or not he is intentionally being controlling or gaslighting and if we just have different views that lead to this dynamic“- (1)  if he is controlling and gaslighting unintentionally but consistently, he is still controlling and gaslighting. (2) when my mother hit me (I was a child, later a teenager), her view was that I made her hit me. (“Look what you did to me“, she’d exclaim). I was confused and believed her. Did the two of us have .. two different but legitimate views about that dynamic…?

-I am so sorry this happened to you, although I know you do not need my sympathy I must give it!

-I wonder why I was drawn to someone like this, I chose to be with N for so long.

“Maybe you should not meet him for a while, maybe you should have quality psychotherapy before meeting him again..? “

I am unsure if this is necessary or not. However I don’t think it will happen. I am still under a belief that it is fixable and he will stop. I am not sure if this is an illusion or there is potential. If i confront him about feeling gaslit when he does not take my worries seriously, he may change that behavior if I tell him I will leave the relationship if it does not stop, which is what I want to do tonight.

Seaturtle

 

I feel more than anxious about our date tonight I am feeling sick to my stomach

Dear Anita,

I am recently, ever since you have started to see a more rounded image of N, confused about whether or not he is intentionally being controlling or gaslighting and if we just have different views that lead to this dynamic. I am not sure but I elaborate in this reply best I can.

“- so far, in your poem, you didn’t indicate, not even suggest, any reason for you to feel constricted by N, all that you shared about him is gloriously positive, just like it’s been on your thread. This is why, for the longest time, I thought that your conflict, the constriction you mentioned here, in your poem, had nothing to do with N and everything to do with F whom, I thought, you inaccurately projected into N. “

-In all honesty I am still not totally sure if this constriction has everything to do with N, I am suspicious of it still mainly having to do with F. I think it’s possible N is similar to F in ways, which makes it even harder to distinguish.

“I didn’t know that you suggested couple therapy to N and he refused?”

Yes I suggested it back when we were living together, on multiple occasions and every time his response is “I am not going to talk to someone who doesn’t know me at all for advice.” He is very skeptical. I think if I paid for it and completely set it up and asked him to go, for me, I think he would but I don’t have the funds alone.

You wrote: “we had just fought)/ All he says is ‘are you bothered??? I’m not?’ I don’t understand this/ lack of awareness“- this right here is very important part in shining light into the relationship that I wasn’t adequately aware of: his response indicates that he negates the reality of what just happened: there WAS a FIGHT.  Either he is like Teflon, and fighting slides off him like oil off Teflon (which was not the case in the c-word incident, the bad driver did not slide off N), OR N is CONTROLLING your mind, or trying to control your brain: your brain is telling you correctly that there was a fight and therefore, the fight left some distress behind it. N tells your brain: Brain, you are Wrong, there was no fight.”

-See I am conflicted here as well. Mostly I have gotten the teflon impression. I don’t think he is trying to control my mind. It is outside of his character to advertently try to control me. For one, one of his biggest “red flags” when working with people or with his friend selections, is if the person is trying to behave how they think he wants them to. N does not like when people are not telling him their real feelings. Although F is like this as well, he often feels people tell him what they want to hear… I am confused again, I really am not sure if it is manipulation or teflon, he genuinely does not let it bother him.

“- something IS wrong but N says nothing is wrong, something must be wrong with Seaturtle’s perception then.. her brain must not perceive/ process information correctly.”

Yes, this is exactly what happens in my head and it is very confusing. Cause it makes me wonder if I am infact creating the issue myself.

” When the deception of the person who is engaging in gaslighting is questioned, they often react by dismissing the accusation as a delusion, an emotional reaction, or an overreaction—thus conditioning the person to internalize those assessments””

F did this for sure. As far as N, I am not 100% He has definitely dismissed accusations as delusional, but are they? Are they projections of F onto him? It is very hard for me to label N as gaslighting, and I am not sure why, I feel defensive of him. I feel guilt for doubting him behind his back. This is a new feeling. What I am wrong and judging him when I am the one who is projecting and accusing him of everything my father was, when he infact is doing his best for this to be an equal partnership…

“- Nothing is wrong.. not because nothing is wrong, but because N SAYS (or suggests by his silence that) nothing is wrong.”

He is silent alot.

” Those being gaslighted must learn that they do not need others to validate their reality, and they need to gain self-reliance and confidence in defining their own reality”.”

I feel this now! I feel like my dad gaslit me so badly that now I am confused about my own reality. I need validation about what I see and feel, when my partner doesn’t validate these things I feel lost like I am just delusional or have some sort of personality disorder for feeling sometimes I see him as perfect (like you have met him through me so far) and other times feeling like he could be completely manipulating me.

Wear Out the Victim. By staying on the offensive, the gaslighter eventually wears down their victim, who becomes discouraged, resigned, pessimistic, fearful, debilitated, and self-doubting. The victim begins to question her or his own perception, identity, and reality.

-I constantly felt this way with my dad.

-Is is possible N is doing this by accident? Like he is Teflon, literally does not think anything is wrong, so when I say there is he literally does not understand.

I think he is out of touch with what bothers him, and subconsciously acts passive aggressively. When I confront him about being passive aggression he does not like it, he refuses but I know he is sometimes.

“- his fear of being controlled motivates him to control.”

Right, but does he know this?

you wrote: he needs you to think that you are weak. If you believe that you are strong, in his mind, it means that he is weak. So he needs you to feel weak, mentally weak. It reminds me of the quote above: “Some people try to be tall by cutting off the heads of others.“

-So my dad 100% is this way, trying to be tall by cutting of the heads of others, no doubt he is this way.

– N doesn’t do this, I don’t think.. He encouraged me to do the play! He encourages me to paint. He wants me to grow? We talk alot about philosophy and he often shares about things he learned from football. He talks alot about being mentally resilient in order to achieve peace. He values peace, more than anything. We disagree on how to get it though. He thinks you simply don’t let outside factors bother you => Peace. I believe you learn how to navigate your body through or around the outside factors, through introspection and awareness. N brings the people around him up, I think? He encourages his friends and works with others very well. He tends to give more than he receives in his friendships, from my perspective, but he sees their value in a way I don’t.

Tonight we have a date to talk about some things, I brought up the two scenarios (c word and cash at grocery store) and how they were controlling, although he asked how and I couldn’t quite explain, I explained more so about how him being late often is controlling as I am just waiting for him. But he claims this is not planned, and I believe him. I think it is more of a priority issue? He prioritizes finishing a project at work than being on time for our dates.

We argued this weekend over a few things I don’t really have the energy to hash back out on here but it ended with him actually suggesting at our next date we say something we would like the other to change for us, something we will change for the other and I suggested also something we like about the other. This settled out argument and that date is tonight and I am anxious for it.

I will write about our date tomorrow.

Seaturtle

Dear Anita,

Last night, I spent the evening with my roommate M, and I told her about me and N. When she first moved in we spoke a little about my relationship but I didn’t want to tell her things that I wasn’t sure about, that she might judge me or N for, and because she will be around N. I still now hope it was the right choice, I have just felt like you are the only person I can talk to about this and I needed to open up to someone vocally about it. Our conversation ended with me saying it was going to end soon, but I am not sure when and that I don’t feel ready. But will I ever? My concern right now is that Christmas is approaching and I wonder if I should do it before then, so that I can go to see my family alone and they can be of support for the first week. However, that means I would have to be ready to end things in the next couple weeks and that is scary.

This morning I wrote a poem, I’d like to read you, and see what you think of me giving this to him either after we end things or in person and use it as my way of ending things.. not sure I just want to do what is best for both of us, causes the least pain and also leaves us both understanding what just happened and, at least vaguely, why.

To N

I don’t want to leave my bed,

it’s warm under the covers

and it’s cold out there.

Plus, there’s a man called

Nathanael who melts into

my skin & like the ocean

it binds like one.

His hair is smooth and soothing

to touch, as is his back,

warm to the bone.

In bed we play games, throw

pillows and suck face,

we even get to talking

and gaze into space.

The way he sees the stars

is a melody new to my ears,

I think “yea” I could listen

to this song for years.

* * *

But help me Universe I feel

conflicted,

is it possible the love here is

constricted?

I can’t tell what I feel but

I do not like it,

“it will all be ok i am going

to fight it.”

 

Day after day coming home

from battle

Nathanael tells me what

I worry about

does not matter.

 

I ask him please come to

therapy, or let’s take a small

break?

He says not, suck it up it’s

only an ache.

 

“ache”

Dear ache, why do you

bother? is it all because

of my father?

Oh yes! perhaps i can

solve all of it myself!

take responsibility for my part.

But wait…in the mean time,

this growth, this battle…

he doesn’t even start?

 

I am fighting alone in

the world of connection.

Confused and alone while

he’s right by my side.

 

We argue about nothing,

the c-word, the cash.

But not 10 minutes later

when i ask,

“how do you feel?” (as we

had just fought)

All he says is “are you

bothered??? I’m not?”

I don’t understand this

lack of awareness,

“I have to be the constant

communication?”

*enter unfairness*

 

“I’ll be there all day.”

“no 12”

“actually 2”

Calls me “see you at 3:30”

Enters the door at 4.

 

As he sits on the couch like

nothing is wrong,

I feel exhausted, for I am sick of

my own; communication song.

I sit and I wonder, do I bring

this up?

Or will he be annoyed..there’s

no way to win.

 

I love this bed, don’t get

me wrong

It’s comforting and beautiful,

what could go wrong?

 

Do I worry about nothing?

No I do not.

 

This next one won’t be so easy

to proceed,

I’m also assuming it won’t be easy

to read.

 

I know you so hate to be

controlled,

Yet ironic to not be you must

have it hold.

See here’s the thing about a

dynamic,

If you can’t rely on one half

the other must control it.

 

At some point you started to

see me as weaker,

“you care about things that

do not matter”

 

If I “waste my time” you

can’t think much of it.

You think my strengths a

weakness but you’re wrong.

 

I see, I feel, I touch, I

smell.

to certain things I am

repelled.

You think it’s fear, but it is

not.

I can sense when an area is

rot.

 

As much as I love this bed

we are in,

it is starting to smell deep

within.

I tried to pick up the pieces on

my own,

but I was not strong enough

alone.

 

You claim it is not about

the money

But you see, it is, it controls

you, honey.

I do not mean to sound

condescending,

But admit it, you think I owe

you something.

 

Your lack of trust in me

has lead,

You to rely on only you in

our bed.

 

Since you can’t rely on me

your head spun you lies, and said

“control her or your future

will be the one that dies.”

 

But it was a lie don’t you

see?

The truth was only to trust

me.

 

I want to be believed

in, seen as strong,

Not just someone who “worries”

about nothing” all day long.

 

I ask you “am I special?”

you want to know why?

Cause I want to see if you

see me, not just

with your eyes.

 

I talk to trees and spirits

and rocks,

how dare you tell me not to

speak with the crystals…

See, you don’t see me, you

cannot.

 

This world has more depth

than you give it credit,

It is not just dirt and

things you can build with.

There’s a spiritual world,

that I am in-tune with.

If you can’t see the value,

then we are too different.

 

It is now at the point

where I value myself more

than you do me. which is

why this must end

Because I am stronger,

just me.

 

This is the hardest thing

I’ve ever done…

Gave up on a friend who I’ve loved

since day one.

I know it’s a cliche to

say “let’s be friends”

But personally I’ll tell you

it doesn’t feel like the end.

 

I know they say “everything

happens for a reason”

but I don’t know I believe this,

can’t the world just be random?

However, I wonder, if meeting online,

messed with our hearts, our meeting

timeline.

Who knows what’s to come

but I’ve cherished you SO.

This end will be painful please

take care of yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

I want to respond more to your reply eventually but don’t let this prevent you from responding, I think your reply may help me get to some clarity, I feel a bit blocked.

Seaturtle