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Peter
Participanthi Rye
In my opinion there is nothing more we can ask of others and ourselves is that when we learn better we do better.
The reality of consciousness is that we become conscious in moments of tension – we donāt become conscious of cold until we experience the tension between the experience of cold and hot. Meaning we tend to learn things the hard way.
I know today there is a tendency to judge people base on a single moment, even if that moment happened years ago when we did not know what we know now. But we are more then a single experience, we are more then the sum of our parts. That you could learn and correct your behavior, and your concern with becoming that person again says great deal about you. That to is a part of the whole
Forgiveness is a concept that it more often then not misunderstood, let alone self forgiveness. Its important to remember that forgiveness does not remove responsibility or accountability. Ā A part of forgiveness is making amends when required and this may or may not evolve those that you harmed.Ā Having made the commitment to learn from your past and do better counts. Self forgiveness also involves amends to the self. Just as your experience likely opened you to compassion towards others you need to have compassion for yourself.
I donāt know anyone who doesnāt have a memory that fills them with shame when something triggers it. Its not a great feeling yet it keeps us aware and asking the question of who we are and wish to be and if we are living up to those values.
Peter
ParticipantWas this your first interactions with you neighbors?
The response your received from the āBuddhist nunsā did not on the surface conform to Buddhist practice or values as I understand them… But Buddhist are human, and as most humans donāt always live up to their values.
Your post reminds me of the stories you hear of someone yelling a someone for not paying attention only to learn that that person just lost their father. We don’t usually know everything that may be influencing a encounter, we like to think we know, but we don’t.
Is it possible you caught your neighbor at a bad time?
The rule of charity states that if there are more then one way of interpreting an interaction and you canāt or donāt want to investigate the intention then chose the most compassionate interpretation.Ā The next step would be to ask your neighbor about the encounter or wish them well and look elsewhere for help.
Peter
ParticipantHi Christy
I donāt think I would have been strong enough to experience the type of ego death you had.
My journey tends to be through books and I misunderstood the process and instead of healthy detachment ended up in indifference and depression. Itās a subtle difference learning how to fully enter life experience without attaching oneās sense of identity as being the experience.
Today I would say that for me its not so much an ego death but about establishing a relationship with the ego. Noticing when an attachment of the ego to an experience is taking me for a ride.
Peter
ParticipantAssuming this thread is open dialog
I found my reaction to this statement personally interesting:Ā āDeath is the permanent ending of somethingā
I do and donāt tend to view death in this way. I mean with regards to personal consciousness maybe but organically no.Ā Objectively Death is a transition, not a permanent end, just an end of one state into another. Atoms and molecules breaking down and reforming, never resting, always in motion, even when our motion stops, or our awareness of our motion stops. And symbolically the word death is always associated with transition, an end but also a beginning.
Not sure where Iām going with that, just though it was interesting… Perhaps my feeling that when we let the ego die its more of a transformation? Perhaps that is a permanent ending…yet is it not true that a part of what dies always feeds what come next
Peter
ParticipantGenerally speaking in the first half of life our task towards individuation is ādoingā ie school, carrier, establish familyā¦. While the second half the task changes to ābeingā
Or if we think in terms of Maslowās Hierarchy of needs:Ā In the first half of life we focus on Physiological, Safety, Social, and Esteem needs and in the second half we look towards Self-actualization and Self-transcendence.
The Midlife Crises occurs when we sense a conflict between our doing and being needs. If one is not conscious of this natural transition, anxiety may arise and you end up buy the red convertible thinking that the purchase of more things is the answer ā itās a midlife crisis when youāre not awake to the change in needs and or try to fix ābeingā by more more ādoingā.Ā If one approaches the transition accepting the anxiety its not long a crisis but a Midlife transition. (How we label things matters)
I noticed from your lists of concerns that most are based on a concern about imagined future ā essentially your feeling the pain to day for an imagined fear of the future.Ā To move forward you may want to work on the list and identify any cognitive distortions and dissonanceās. In this you well be able to identify the real issues behind your anxiety create a plan to deal with them.
Peter
ParticipantWhat a interesting experience to have before “knowing” what it was all about and understandable terrifying. It reminds me of something Jung said about it taking a strong and healthy ego to allow it die. Its a interesting thought and I suppose that the week ego only pretends to die danger and instead attaches itself to the belief that all (including the I) is meaningless and empty void. Indifference vice non-attachment
For myself I no longer link of the ego as poison or something that has to be overcome but as a useful go between the conscious and unconscious, a necessity of language that allows for contemplation and sharing of experience.Ā Its very difficult to communicate with others or ourselves without using or thinking the word I even as we know āI am not I” (I am) just as āI am not my bodyā but I like having a bodyā¦ its useful. But sometimes I forget š
Peter
ParticipantResponding to the topic of ego death
Coming to the realization that āI am not my beliefsā does not necessary mean oneās beliefs are void or that one is indifferent to them, only that one understands them for what they are and so not attached to them.Ā This form of non-attachment creates space where one no longer experience anxiety when a ābeliefā is challenged, which they will be. By non-attachment one can confront the present moment experience that may contradict the belief without danger to ones āidentityā and doing so learn and grow.
Associating and attaching one sense identity with oneās beliefs often leads to depression and or fanaticism. For example, if I am my ego, I am my beliefs this āIā is unlikely to be able to tolerate those beliefs being questioned as doing so puts in question my identity. This such a āIā cannot allow and so āIā will force everyone (and my self) to adhere to my beliefsā¦ even if they no longer match my experiences. (I am divided and divided unhappy)
Allowing the belief that āI am my egoā to ādieā (which is what the ego wants but also fears) one is better able to enter into the experience and ābeā in the moment. (vice the past ā future)
Peter
ParticipantEvery moment, infinity small, infinity large, every breath we take is a death and rebirth šĀ every breath every moment a reincarnation.
The ego has its role to play in consciousness and easy to mistake for the self and in charge.
āWhat had the experienceā,Ā āI had the experienceā…Ā But the I does not exist – other then a construct of language, there is only the present experience.
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This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by
Peter.
Peter
ParticipantImagine someone walking towards you suddenly cross the road. Would you feel safer and thank them for their kindness?
I was very shy and fearful growing up and latter in life was shocked to learn that many in the community I grew up in felt that shyness as conceit. The story they told themselves about me was that I must think I was to good for them. I thought I was being kind and considerate they thought I was stuck up. (Maybe I was, as shyness can be a judgment that we don’t trust others)
You are making the mistake of thinking you can know what others are thinking and that others can know what you are thinking. (heck we barley know and understand our own thoughts and motivations)
The anxiety we feel is of our own making and all of it based on illusion. If you want to reduce your anxiety let go of the excessive concern you have of what you imagine others think of you – which is really the excessive concern you have about your self.Ā This concern isnāt about being nice and considerate of others its about you creating the illusion of safety for yourself. Which, based on the anxiety you feel youāre not experiencing anyway, its not working, let it go.
Peter
ParticipantYour decision to downsize, in my opinion for what its worth, is a sound and good one.
Happiness does not come from all the stuff we have. As you yourselves have discovered the ādream homeā did not create the dream but a burden of anxiety.Ā Thatās the thing with stuff,Ā more often then not, instead of enjoying it we live the fear of losing it.
Iām 55, sole bread winner, prone to depression, and getting tired ā ready to re-tire. Ready or not the next sage of life is before us and the questions start to arise, what do we want it to look like? Do we continue to strive and pushā¦ how much do we really need? What is truly important. Its understandable as we grasp and hold on to the illusions of the past, how things should be even suspecting that we donāt really want those things that we fall into depression.
There is no reason for regret. Nothing stopping you from pursuing a new dream house, but you already know that you wont, its not what you or your family needs or wants. The dream āhomeā your seeking in the second half of life isnāt about brick and mortar and stuff.
āThe feelings that hurt most, the emotions that sting most, are those that are absurd – The longing for impossible things, precisely because they are impossible; nostalgia for what never was; the desire for what could have been; regret over not being someone else; dissatisfaction with the worldās existence. All these half-tones of the soulās consciousness create in us a painful landscape, an eternal sunset of what we are.ā ā Fernando Pessoa
Peter
ParticipantI recommend the book – The Wisdom of Insecurity by Alan Watts
When we experience anxiety, we are almost always trying to fix, fixate, the present ā in other words we want to stop life, stop change, stop flow and control it. We want security
We want security but security is fixed and life is flow (life cannot be fixed) so the more security we desire the more insecure we become. The only way to over come insecurity is to embrace insecurity.
āTo put is still more plainly: the desire for security and the feeling of insecurity are the same thing. To hold your breath is to lose your breath. A society based on the quest for security is nothing but a breath-retention contest in which everyone is as taut as a drum and as purple as a beet.ā ā Alan W. Watts
āBut you cannot understand life and its mysteries as long as you try to grasp it. Indeed, you cannot grasp it, just as you cannot walk off with a river in a bucket. If you try to capture running water in a bucket, it is clear that you do not understand it and that you will always be disappointed, for in the bucket the water does not run. To āhaveā running water you must let go of it and let it run.ā Ā ā Alan W. Watts
Peter
ParticipantThere are many levels to our relationship to the word love. In your question you appear to be asking when is it we experience Love True ā true as in an experience without doubt or need of measurement?
I would have to disagree that the experience of understanding another so well that you see their problems as your own as being ātrue loveāā¦ though it might be an attribute of the experience. I donāt think it would not be enough by itself. The danger being that such an experience of loving another in that way might end in co-dependency or some such phycological quagmire.
Rephrasing the question – when do you know you are loving someone truly and being loved truly?
My best guess is that we experience being loved truly when we are truly seen, truly witnessed by another.
I see you, (I am seen) all off you (all of me) as you are (as I am) the good the bad and ugly and accept all of it, all of you (all of me). Who you are matters, (who I am matters), what you do matters, (what I do matters) ā¦ so I hold you accountable, (you must let me be accountable) ā¦ for if I did not (if you do not) I do not see you, (you do not see me) and nothing you are, (nothing I am), could matter, have meaning or purposeā¦ and that would not be love true.
Iāve always liked the following quote from Shall We Dance
“We need a witness to our lives.Ā There’s a billion people on the planet, what does any one life really mean? But in a marriage, (love true) you’re promising to care about everything.Ā The good things, the bad things, the terrible things, the mundane things, all of it, all of the time, every day.Ā You’re saying ‘Your life will not go unnoticed because I will notice it.Ā Your life will not go un-witnessed because I will be your witness’.” ā I love you true
Peter
ParticipantA word that appears often in your story is Shame.Ā Shame is a complex emotion. Sometimes the shame we feel is deserved, for example we deliberately hurt someone, and the shame we feels informs us that amends may be called for, however most of the shame we feel and that drives usĀ and keeps us stuck is not deserved. We have done nothing wrong, are nothing wrong…
Undeserved shame is shame we feel for being who we are, as we are (who others told us we are)…. we judge and measure ourselves unnecessarily unacceptable… We tend to suck at measuring our experiences, judging them and then worse labeling our sense of self based on those measurements.
āOne of the plainest truths about both towns and individuals is that they usually don’t turn into what we tell them to be, but what they are told they are.āĀ Ā āĀ Fredrik Backman, Beartown
You may find Lewis B Smedes book ‘Shame and Grace: Healing the Shame We Don’t Deserve‘ helpful
“If you persistently feel you don’t measure up, you are feeling shameāthat vague, undefined heaviness that presses on our spirit, dampens our gratitude for the goodness of life, and diminishes our joy. The good news is that shame can be healed.”
Peter
ParticipantSome questions for you
Can happiness exist without the possibility of sadness? (Enter the problem of opposites, duality and consciousness.)
What role does the ego, sense of self, play in becoming consciousness and the awakening to experience?
What is unconditional Love? How are the attributes of accountability, responsibility, discipline, purpose, meaning related to the experience of being Loved and Loving ā Unconditionally?
If the condition of being unconditional a condition of unconditional Love, is it still Love?
What is Love?
If Life is Love, and the reality of Life is that Life eats Life,ā¦ are pain, sacrifice and death are also attribues of Love?
Peter
ParticipantBy sitting with the feelingsĀ so that you learn how to respond them them vice react.
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This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by
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