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- This topic has 9 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 5 months ago by Inky.
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June 23, 2015 at 6:21 am #78715InkyParticipant
Hi Gang,
I’m worried that our dear friends and neighbors are entrenched in a cult or cult-like religion (Jehovah Witness).
Five years ago the wife would open her door to have Bible studies with them. The husband was against it. Little by little her beliefs changed. But she was always a thinking, discerning being throughout the process so I never worried.
Well, one day the husband talked to them and now the family goes to worship and Bible study (both taking up all Sunday) and he takes other classes with them. They are little by little taking up all his free time. OK, yellow flags are waving, but fine.
The red flag came when my son said, “Can we have my BFF (the neighbor’s son) go out to dinner with us.”
“No, it’s a school night.”
“(IT’S HIS BIRTHDAY!!)” (JW’s don’t celebrate holidays/birthdays)
Before we knew it we were out to dinner with our family and a mildly depressed kid tacitly celebrating his birthday without saying it was his birthday. We went out for frozen yogurt instead of cake and give him new-ish unwrapped toys saying, “Oh, we’re cleaning out the closet, I know you like RPGs, here’s one if you want it… OMG, it’s your birthday, HAPPY BIRTHDAY, I heard you’re having a sleepover in a couple weeks..?”
The mother called me saying “Thank you, thank you!” What had once been “her” thing, the husband commandeered and was becoming a true JW!
Again, OK, fine.Recently the husband has been calling me up and having the family (or ME) over for dinner, but as a thinly disguised attempt to proselytize. OK, I have a mixed background with rabbinical and Lutheran clergical legacies running in my veins (and brain) so at the first “dinner” when he tried to rope me in I started talking about the Aramaic vs. Greek translations. (JW’s aren’t allowed to look at other translations but he doesn’t know that yet).
The second dinner he tried again. At one point he said, “When Jesus was telling his Apostles ‘Greater things you will do than me’ he was talking to THEM, not US.”
Me: “How do you know?”
Him: “It’s amazing how people can pick certain passages in the text and have it be totally out of context.”
Me: “Exactly”
Him: Argues
Me: “So if He was only talking to his Apostles then the Great Commission is really for THEM, not US, and spreading the Good News is the whole point of your religion.”
Him: Leaves table and slams a door, doesn’t returnOK, I don’t mind a theological debate, but I feel like I’m a “project”. With the wife it’s different. She’ll say, “I feel bad for having Nutcrackers in the house, I don’t want to offend Jehovah.”
Me: “With ISIS killing people in the Middle East right now, I don’t think Jehovah cares about the Nutcrackers.”
No one’s right. No one’s wrong.Even my DH says that the husband is becoming a JW soundbite/pamphlet.
So I go on the Internet for the first time typing in “Jehovah Witness”. In my face are all, “JW is a Cult!” and “How I Escaped Kingdom Hall” and “The Watchtower Destroyed My Family!”
Community, if you are or have friends or family who are JWs, am I over reacting? How do I handle? I understand the zeal of a convert, but I had nightmares and haven’t slept well this week and during the day there is a “clawing of the mind” in me going “Danger! Danger!”
Thank You so much in advance for your help/advice!
Inky
June 23, 2015 at 7:01 am #78718Rock BananaParticipantHave you considered leaving them to whatever it is they want to believe? If they converse about beliefs you are not interested in, then you can simply state you’re not interested.
June 23, 2015 at 7:19 am #78722InkyParticipantI agree as I have one other JW friend (best friend’s sister). She is moderate, normal and has a brain.
This situation is alarming to me as we have been friends for fifteen years and the contrast is just too great. (I could have written more.) They are being totally swept up in this. Critical thinking lost. I don’t want them to be eventually be totally in control of the Watchtower thought police or have the Kingdom Hall run their lives. Their decision, yes, but utterly painful to see.
I have been polite about the proselyting but yes, the time has come to say, “I’ve done my own independent research and this isn’t for me. Please don’t waste your time on me with this, I’m just your friend and neighbor.”
June 23, 2015 at 7:42 am #78725AnonymousGuestDear Inky:
I have lots of experience with zealous jehovah witnesses, full time door to door JWs from 2009-2012 or so, fairly recent. I know a lot. They are not so bad as long as you have nothing to do with them. Once you give an opening- they will take it. Once a person who opens a door to them actually accepts one of those pamphlets or is otherwise encouraging in any way, shape or form, they make a note of it and will come back. I was in KH- not a threatening place, really. No cookies, no coffee though, nothing to eat or drink, ever. Anyway, if there is anything further I can help you with, I will be more than glad to share with you my vast knowledge. (I was in a new city at the time, freshly unemployed, i needed the company, and “Robbie” was great, so full of life and a pleasant company…)
anitaJune 23, 2015 at 7:52 am #78727InkyParticipantHi anita,
How did you handle Robbie? Did you eventually say, “Not for me”?
I’m thinking (next time he brings it up) to say, “So, what’s up with all the cult warnings about JW?” and just plant the seed.
June 23, 2015 at 8:31 am #78731MattParticipantInky,
JWs can be such great teachers, as they have a religious, bible based spiritual materialism. Like, as you’ve noticed, ego ego ego, and anything that doesn’t fit is exiled, shamed, cut out. Like a cocoon they have to wrap themselves in. As though a nutcracker isn’t God. As though God wouldn’t be right there with the boy, eating yogurt alongside, happy and celebrating her wonderful creation. Instead, they concentrate on the fear, wield it in the name of holy righteousness and purity. Losing the trees in the forest, concentrating on being godly yet shutting out 75% of her creation.
In my opinion, do exactly what you’ve been doing. If invited, open yourself up to your inner divinity and say whatever comes to heart when he preaches. “Wow, you sure seem to have become cultish. You ok?” Sure, fine, sounds good. “Jesus only wanted his apostles to do “the work”? Then why are you doing “the work”? Brilliant, a well thrown spear. I trust your goddessy vibration, that in the moment you are needed, you will know what to do.
As far as the dreams, stress, and fear, consider that JW aren’t converting, so much as filling a need he had. Not in a functional way, but still their plug reached his empty socket. The conclusion I’ve drawn from experience with many JW, both preachy ones and kind ones, is that young people need strict rules until they grow up. Like, JW is like spiritual kindergarten, fulfilling a need in humanity. They are still divine, lovable, beautiful, doing their best to be spiritual beings in material plane. Weird, sure. Many clingings, sure. Like kids, they think they know it all, and have much, much to learn.
But its not yours. Yours is the loving work of getting a present in the boys hands. To see and love the tree. And you do well, are sneaky and creatively brilliant. He felt loved, attended, and seen. There are certainly worse preoccupations his dad could have. Worse addictions.
With warmth,
MattJune 23, 2015 at 8:53 am #78733AnonymousGuestDear Inky:
Oh, the vivacious, life loving Robbie- she was something else! So much fun to be around! I really wanted her as a friend. I took her out to restaurants- she enjoyed good food and couldn’t afford much. I treated her to things-as long as it was not a holiday or a birthday.Eventually it was time for me to PAY, I mean to pay the real price (treats and restaurants and little gifts, and definitely my company- all these were not enough, not even close). The price for her friendship was for me to believe what she believed in. She pressured me to drastically change the workings of my brain and believe those things. It was an all or nothing demand.
I did my best to make a friendship with her work without paying this drastic price but it didn’t work and I became distressed. With enough distress I told her NO, clearly, unambiguously. And that was it. “Let your yes be yes and your no be no..” Never a maybe with somebody who will accept only a YES or a NO.
anitaJune 23, 2015 at 9:10 am #78735InkyParticipantMatt, brilliant answer! I got tears in my eyes reading it! Thank you, thank you!!
Anita, yes, that’s one of my eventual fears. Us vs. Them, “Are you with Us, or are you Them?”
June 23, 2015 at 9:22 am #78737AnonymousGuestDear Inky:
I got to tell you, I don’t think the JW beliefs are much more crazy than the traditional Christianity. Traditional Christianity believes anyone who believes in… will end up in heaven and the JWs believe than anyone who believes will either continue to physically live in a paradise earth throughout and following Armageddon or will be resurrected and live forever in paradise earth (the so many spaces available in heaven for the governing body of paradise earth are already taken). I don’t see JW as a cult more than traditional Christianity. The excommunication of JWs is often not as drastic as in some of the internet stories and such happen outside JWs- so I don’t see them as much more bizzare than other religions. As long as they don’t sacrifice humans, as some religions advocate, I am not scared. A lot of the attitudes about JW is the subjective aversion to what is different from the “normal” which is as irrational, really. Kind of.Robbie was in great physical shape, lean and muscular. She was ready for paradise earth. Riding with me in my car she was alarmed by my driving, exclaiming: I don’t want to (die and) be resurrected). She had a point- a lot of hard work put on that great in shape body to allow it to die.
antiaJune 24, 2015 at 11:44 am #78794InkyParticipantUpdate:
Talked to the wife and expressed my fears and asked her questions.
1. Have you read up on The Watchtower organization and founder?
2. Are you concerned that the potential for abuse is there in the Kingdom Hall because of the Watchtower organizational setup?
3. Do you know who your Elders are? (That would predict your future). Have they ever dis-fellowshipped anyone there before? Why? Worst case scenario, what happens if only one of you gets shunned, what would you do?
4. Will we still be friends as I am “worldly”?
5. DH shouldn’t proselytize to me as the way he’s doing it is actually making me turn AWAY from the JWs.
6. I’m sorry I’m bringing this up, I’m just so concerned I love you I love you I love you!!
She TOTALLY understood and had NEVER (!) done research on the organizational set up or knew who the Elders were in her Kingdom Hall. She understood that my fears were of them being under some outer Control. She said all organizations have problems. I said that when I Google “Protestant” I don’t get “Cult” like I do for JW and that’s why I’m concerned!
OK, thanks for letting me get this off my chest!!
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