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Universe and True Nature

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  • #454342
    James123
    Participant

    Entire universe born with your birth. Universe wasn’t something was exist before you.

    You learned your birth, birth took place. you learned your body, counrty, family, religion, ethnics, then they all took place.

    Think now china, china exist, think your mom, mom exist and China is gone.

    Thinking creates everything, meanwhile there is nothing there in thinking.

    İf you don’t think (not forcibly, but not attached) entire universe dissolves.

    Living as enlightened being, actually death of universe.

    When thinking arise, body appears, when it is gone, all is gone.

    Life is not a constantly burning light, just a blinking light. Comes and goes with attachment or word of attachment.

    In totally darkness, not even which is You, the life is just a blinking light.

    #454343
    Thomas168
    Participant

    Well, got to say it is nice to see you back again. Hope you are in good spirits. Hope all is well with your family. That is one way of looking at the world. It exist when you are born. But, I think it existed before that and will exist long after I am gone.

    #454350
    Peter
    Participant

    The world arises with consciousness – birth… Thought creates the appearance of a world – experience… When thought stops, the world dissolves – enlightenment the “death” of the constructed universe (self)….

    I’m not sure the question for me is whether The World disappears, but whether the world‑as‑told disappears… the universe that arises with my birth, my speaking of it. That’s how I read James comment, though I’m not assuming this is what he meant.

    I tend to see language, thought, and ego consciousness as inseparable. When language loosens its grip, when naming, measuring, and explaining fall quiet, The World doesn’t vanish. What dissolves is the self, the interpretive layer that I place over experience of self.

    When language pauses, the whole constructed surface of experience softens. What remains isn’t nothing. It’s simply the world before a I describe it: raw, immediate, unfiltered. Or perhaps it is “nothing,” but only in the Zen sense of the word?

    So the questions James words raise for me are: What is the world before I speak it? What remains when the story falls silent?
    The world is no longer “my world”
    The self is no longer “my self”
    The heart is no longer “my heart”

    There is presence…. And in that quiet, the world is still here, but the one who grasps at it is gone. In that space, ‘nothing’ is born and nothing dies.

    #454351
    Peter
    Participant

    For fun – Percival and the Scholar of Appearances
    One morning, Percival the Wanderer, and some called fool, found a scholar sitting beside a well, staring into the water as if waiting for something to rise.

    “What do you see?” Percival asked.

    “I am studying the world,” the scholar replied. “I am trying to understand what is real before thought names it.”

    Percival nodded. “Ah. I lost my names years ago. They kept falling out of my pockets.”

    The scholar frowned. “Without names, how do you know what anything is?”

    Percival picked up a stone and held it to his ear. “It tells me,” he said.

    The scholar sighed. “Fool, Stones do not speak.”

    “Only to those who insist on listening,” Percival said.

    The scholar leaned closer. “Tell me when you stop thinking, does the world disappear?”

    Percival laughed. “No, friend. Only your version of it disappears.”

    The scholar stiffened. “My version? Are you saying the world I have spent my life studying is nothing but a mistake?”

    Percival shook his head gently. “Not a mistake. A story. A beautiful one, even. But still a story.”

    The scholar’s jaw tightened. “If the world is only a story, then what remains when the story ends?”

    Percival pointed to the well. “Look.”

    The scholar looked. He saw water. He saw his reflection. He saw the sky trembling on the surface.

    “I see… everything,” he whispered.

    Percival nodded. “Yes. Everything that was hidden behind your explanations.”

    The scholar turned to him. “So the world is real?”

    Percival shrugged. “As real as your breath. But the story you tell about it, that one comes and goes.”

    The scholar closed his eyes, seeing… “Is this prayer?”

    Percival smiled. “When the heart looks at the world the way you just looked into the well, without naming, without grasping, without fear. Just seeing, yes”

    “And contemplation?” the scholar asked.

    “That,” Percival said, “is when the well looks back.”

    The scholar opened his eyes. “And you, Fool, what are you?”

    Percival bowed. “I am the space between your thoughts where the world slips in.” And with that, he wandered off, pockets empty, heart full.

    #454363
    James123
    Participant

    Dear Peter,

    You are not nothing, not space between world and thoughts.

    İmagine before birth, You are that

    Unnamable, unspeakable, ungraspable.
    When one completely surrendered, there is no ego nor universe nor enlightenment. And that’s what enlightenment is.

    #454365
    Peter
    Participant

    When surrender is total, the duality between “me” and “world” collapses. Even the idea of enlightenment collapses. What remains cannot be named… even silence surrenders.

    Yet both of us speak and undo ourselves…

    James, what strikes me in this exchange is the way language keeps pulling us back in, even when we’re both pointing beyond it. The moment we speak of the “unspeakable ground,” we’ve already stepped into the very movement we’re trying to dissolve. Such is the suchness of dialogue.

    My own approach, and what I felt you point to, is exposing experience itself, as a construct. Trusting that when the scaffolding of interpretation is seen for what it is, it loosens. And when it loosens, every construct, including my words, even yours, dissolves. What remains is not a metaphysical claim but a kind of seeing: the world as a mirror without a face, transparent to what is transcendent.

    In that sense, I’m not trying to name the ground or deny it. I’m simply watching how the naming happens, how the world‑as‑told arises, and how it falls away. Where your language points to the source before all stories; mine points to the unraveling of the story itself. Even that one… Different gestures, both moving toward the same vanishing point.

    And then, because life is never finished with us… as if from the far edge of the road, Lao tzu wanders by to remind us of the gravity of things. He taps his staff on the earth and murmurs: “Heavy is the root of light. Still is the master of moving”. – Tao Te Ching 26

    He speaks of wise souls who travel with the “heavy” wagon, who return each night to the solid, quiet house, who do not let themselves grow lighter than the world they inhabit. For lightness loses its foundation, and movement loses its mastery.

    And suddenly the whole conversation, the unmaking of self, the dissolving of constructs, the unspeakable ground settles into something simple: A body standing on the earth. A breath rising and falling. A life that must still sweep the floor, fold the sheets, carry out the trash… to vanish into the nameless and still walk steadily through the named world, rooted, present, unhurried, as if carrying a quiet house within.

    #454366
    James123
    Participant

    Dear Peter,

    I respect that. Of course mine and yours are stories, but pointers at the same time.

    what i mean is, while walking have you ever vanished, even for couple seconds? Body just walked and there wasn’t any you to be aware of body and universe, therefore they vanished too?

    This is actually what stillness is.

    Do not think for body, let it think for you

    #454367
    Peter
    Participant

    Hi James,

    Maybe… there is that hollow between breaths, when rising has ended and returning has not begun… a space not held, not owned, simply suspended, weightless, known without a knower.

    At times it feels like dissolving into the canvas, the surface still blank though it carries every painting that has ever appeared and every painting still waiting to be born. Sometimes I notice yin and yang dancing across that emptiness‑that‑is‑fullness, and sometimes, rarely, I find myself in that instant before the brush descends, when “I” am and am not the canvas, or the paint… Then the Hermit taps his staff in the dark: no further.

    It’s a slipping out of the frame, a pause where the familiar “me” does not gather itself… and yet walking continues, breathing continues, the world continues. A quiet shift rather than a dramatic disappearance — a vanishing that erases nothing, only the one who imagines he is the painter of the scene.

    Between rising and falling, the breath disappears. Who notices the disappearance?

    #454371
    James123
    Participant

    The body.

    #454376
    Peter
    Participant

    Here. Before thought. Before the painter. Before the painting.

    #454377
    Peter
    Participant

    Canvases All the Way Down

    Body… the first canvas.
    Breath… the first brushstroke,
    rising from the unseen, returning to the unseen,
    moving in a rhythm older than memory.

    Mat beneath body…
    second canvas of quiet flesh,
    holding the arcs of motion,
    the folding and unfolding,
    the ancient prayer spoken without words.

    Floor beneath mat…
    wider canvas of many breaths,
    bearing the weight of countless bodies,
    each one a tide, each one a whisper
    in the great dark.

    Beneath the floor…
    deeper grounds of stillness,
    one upon another, falling away,
    yielding, dissolving into deeper night.

    Canvases upon canvases… veils upon veils,
    each one thinning, each one opening,
    each one pointing toward the ground
    that cannot be spoken.

    Until all surfaces fall away,
    and only the ground remains…
    unspeakable, unpainted, unborn.
    Where breath has no owner,
    where body has no edge,
    where the canvas
    and the painter
    and the painting
    are one.

    #454389
    Thomas168
    Participant

    James said, “You learned your birth, birth took place. you learned your body, counrty, family, religion, ethnics, then they all took place.

    From that sentence, I conclude you are saying that one is separate from the body. You learn your birth, you learn your body. Sounds like being separate from the body to learn of it. Where as I believe that one does not become aware until the body exist and the mind grows into the body. If the mind was separate from the body then alcohol would have no effect on the state of mind. But, it does. So, you are not separate from your body. You can not find anything inside of you that is other than this body. Though parts of you may be discard such as an appendix. One can not discard the brain. It holds the thoughts and memories of the person. Take it out and throw it away and the person no longer lives. What is left after your body dies? Only what was there before your birth. And that is where you shall return.

    If you believe in God and his angels and prophets then you long to belong to a group of believers who have faith that God does exist. Whether God exist or not is immaterial when it comes to watching your enemies kill your loved ones. If God exist then why would he allow for the horrors that have gone on during the World Wars? No, God is for those who have faith and trust in God. Those who would endure the bitterness of life in the belief there is something after this life. IDK, And I do not judge. But, I am a practical man.

    #454390
    Thomas168
    Participant

    Please note that if you say that I will burn and the ashes won’t even know I was here then fine. Threats of heaven and hell are for those who believe that there is a life hereafter. The one constant in this universe is that everything changes over time. The only things that doesn’t change are the things that do not experience time like photons. Massless, ghost like particles.

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