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I want, but I cling

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  • #101606
    Yannick Plante
    Participant

    Hi everyone, I have a kind of perplexing thought processing problem that I don’t know how to deal with, could somebody help me with this?
    So the problem : when I try to do something I want to do, a long-term project or just to follow my passions, I get really mad. Whereas, when I’m doing things for others or things I have to do, everything is just fine. So I went a bit deeper to see what was the problem and I think it’s about clinging. I seem to cling too much to the things I want to do, I become kind of neurotic and dependant. For example, yesterday, I wanted to do a guitar session. First, I had to go through the stages of “isn’t there anything better to do, you’re going nowhere with this, fear, guilt, blabla” and then, when I started playing it’s like I became obsessed with the thing, I couldn’t stop or think about anything else. It feels like I’m addict to it, I forget everything else, forget all my mindfulness to remind me that peace doesn’t come from these things I do. But still, I want to do them, but I feel so terrible after… it really is perplexing. I realize that I fear doing my projects because I fear this state. I become really agressive and completely obsessed, it’s like my life is about this thing. If you have anything to clarify with this or just share your experience (I hope I’m not the only one) or give me an advice, that would very be appreciated! I know this pain has something to teach me, but what exactly?

    TontonYanou

    #101607
    Inky
    Participant

    Hi tontonyanou,

    I know what you mean. I took my family on some of my Bucket List adventures. And I would get totally focused and obsessed. Looking back, I should have done them alone. Maybe it’s the fear of if we don’t do it now it will be taken away? Or that nothing I’ve done “mattered” and this won’t “matter” but I have to do it anyway? I don’t know how we can fix this, but maybe cop the attitude of calm, cool, and collected.

    I like the idea of We are Already Perfect, and Everything Else is just Happy Optional Extras.

    Best,

    Inky

    #101608
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear tontonyanou:

    What you are describing, I believe, is your significant discomfort with the emotional state of passion. Looking at definitions of the word “passion”, here are some: “a strong feeling (such as anger) that causes you to act in a dangerous way”
    “Strong or powerful emotion: a crime of passion” and “Passion (from the Greek verb πασχω meaning to suffer) is a very strong feeling about a person or thing. Passion is an intense emotion, a compelling enthusiasm or desire for something.”

    I personally feel great discomfort with the state of passion and prefer calm. When I feel passion, I get alarmed, as if that feeling will cause me to behave in a harmful way, as if I am in danger. It is like losing self control, no longer being in charge of myself, as if something else takes over. It is scary to be lost like that.

    I would like to be able to tolerate that state, those emotions. Can you relate to what I wrote here so far?

    anita

    #101640
    Elisabeth
    Participant

    I have similar feelings. I had terrible anxiety and frustration the other day as I was trying to pick out flowers to put in my back yard. I realized that this was partly coming from my perfectionism. I was also upset that money is tight and had to put a lot of thought into what I could afford. Gardening is so pleasurable to me that it’s become an addiction (one of my many) and so I lose joy when doing it.

    I also relate to you in second guessing if I should be doing something else with my time. Guilt takes all pleasure out of the experience. Plus I feel angry that I am taken away from what I am clinging to. So I hold onto it for dear life lol.

    I actually decided to become mindful at the store and let myself experience the beauty of the flowers even though I couldn’t take any of them home with me. It also helped me to decide what I could afford the next time I went flower shopping <3

    #101660
    Yannick Plante
    Participant

    Yeah thanks Inky for your insight. I took some time today to try and understand how it works and I think it really is about all sorts of fear : fear the opportunity will not be there again, fear of not being approved, fear that you might never be able to do it… I even have fear of feeling bad when doing things I like… I do understand what you mean by saying “nothing matters” it’s just another thing, it’s true, because when I’ve applied this logic in the past (thinking that I didn’t want to do anything) I was just lying to myself and buying into my fears : I was justifying my non-action because it brought pain with it. But today I know that I shouldn’t feel pain because it must come out in order from greater things to be expressed, actually, I think we should throw ourselves in what makes us feel this pain in order to understand what it has to teach us instead of hiding from it (there are limits there, but when pain comes, I try to simply enjoy it as it is simply “another thing”, it isn’t bad, it is, simply) Well thanks for this, made me wrote about things I never thought about!:)

    Anita : you comment is very true to my experience, it is like I lost control of myself. In this state, all my memories, dreams, etc are kind of wiped out temporarily. I can’t figure out anything or reason myself, I get pulled inside something that really feels like passion as you described it. I never thought about that, it’s really interesting. It is indeed very scary and I can’t control it, I get lost in this state. However, sometimes I am melting in the present moment while, for example, I’m playing guitar and there’s magic happening. I keep my heart calm (it takes enormous efforts) and I don’t experience this state. But it is quite hard to do as I don’t really know how to deal with this. Do you have any idea that could help me or that have helped you already? Like I said above, I know this pain is trying to teach me something and I should try to listen to it, and to simply enjoy it’s presence, but it’s kind of overwhelming sometimes. I’d like to know why it’s there? Do you have any idea? Does it feel so bad because we resist the “passion” or because we buy into it?

    Teleri, it’s a story I can really relate to. I’m trying to make a garden too and I feel so strange doing it. It’s my first one, so many things to learn and plan and I feel the project has taken over me. It’s not for fun anymore, it’s like this garden has to save the world : it’s a lot of pressure. I try to integrate permaculture design techniques, but I feel ashamed for not understanding all of them, I feel anxious for not doing it perfectly, guilty.. everything!:b I didn’t thought I was so perfectionist, but I really am… I try to take permaculture courses to deepen my understanding, but I feel anxious about not remembering everything and I get drawn into “passion” again. It’s quite hard to accomplish anything in these states, but I really love your “solution” to this which is (in my words) to feel grateful for the beauty and live that runs through life. It’s maybe our egoic mind that wants to possess so many things but never really enjoys them fully : it’s maybe this selfish mind that obsess so much about things like that putting pressure on itself as if life depended on it. But you’re right : we should enjoy life, isn’t that the point in the end?

    #101672
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear tontonyanou:

    This is what I am thinking at this point, having re-read your original post and your reply posts; this is my proposed answer to your questions: “I know this pain has something to teach me, but what exactly?” and “this pain is trying to teach me something… why it’s there?”

    You learned early on in your life, when you were a child, that what you want is not important enough to do, that you are not important or valuable enough to do what you want to do. You learned that other people are more important, that you should do for them. When you did things you wanted to do, you were discouraged, either by criticism for not doing what you did perfectly, or you were criticized for being selfish. On the other hand, you were rewarded for doing things for others.

    So when you do things for others you feel calm. You have a memory of being rewarded for doing those things. But when you do what you want to do, you feel anxious because you have a memory of being punished for doing what you wanted to do.

    As you feel anxious about planning on doing what you want to do, for yourself, and once you pass the initial anxiety over it and start doing it, part of you knows this is a very precious opportunity that doesn’t happen often, so it “binges”- not much different than someone on a restrictive diet: no cake! But the moment you finally allow yourself cake, part of you goes crazy and eats and eats and eats.

    The message: tontonyanou wants to do what she wants to do! My solution to a similar situation is to do what you want to do more often, maybe every day, set up time every day to do what you want to do, so the part of you that binges will get used to getting what it wants regularly.

    What do you think?

    anita

    #101688
    Jan T
    Participant

    Hi tontonyanou,

    I think you got to the source when you pinpointed fear as the issue. Getting to the issue is the first step to solving the problem.

    Fear causes us to want security. Wanting security leads us to seek answers to our fears, sometimes desperately. Fear is a negative driver.

    Just a few thoughts.

    The opposite of fear is faith. Can you take a close look at each fear (list them and contemplate them), and for each one, cultivate faith that your fear is not valid? Can you list the fears and then beside each fear list the reasons your fear is false? Then when each fear arises, you can read what you wrote and focus on your reasoning instead of letting the fear run rampant.

    Also, what do you think about the concept of allowing versus grasping? Can you think about allowing whatever you are working on to unfold as opposed to grasping at it? Allowing is gentle. Grasping is harsh. Allowing lets things happen. Grasping pushes things away. Allowing feels calming and positive. Grasping feels restrictive and frustrating.

    I have also heard there are only two motivating forces or primary emotions…love and fear. And only love is real. Something to ponder.

    #101924
    Yannick Plante
    Participant

    Wow! Thank you Anita, that feels spot on, I had chills reading this. I didn’t thought about this… I could add after having reflecting a bit on the subject that it’s also about perfectionism and how things should be. I feel strongly unsatisfied when I do something for myself because it’s never the way I want it to be whereas when I do things for others, it is not me who judges, so off the pressure. Also, I notice that my parent did put a lot of pressure for me to do the things I want to do, which, in the end, resulted in me having fear towards these things. They are not to blame of course, they didn’t know that pushing me too hard in every little center of interest I ever had could wound up like this. They put pressure on me to accomplish these things that I want as if the result was worth more that the thing itself : then, I don’t do things for fun or because I want to, I do them to obtain a certain result, a feeling of approbation and to release the guilt I have about not doing things “perfectly”. And of course, what I do for myself is never what I should be doing, never the best, never important… They assisted me materially, it did help me, but unconsciously, it discouraged me. Thanks a lot, now that I know the problem, it’ll be way easier to work with it!:b

    Jan T, your comment is quite interesting too. I’ve practiced what you said (in my head) and I notice that all my problems have for substantial source, fear : fear of not being right, fear of not being worth, fear of not being the best, fear of doing the wrong thing, fear of mistakes, fear of living… All kinds of fear! I’ve started to work with them and realize why they are not true as you say. I realized that I’m way more insecure than I thought, way more fearful of life and I use a lot of “spiritual” concept if you like, to justify my fears : something like, follow inspiration and do the things that it says (I wound up doing nothing judging that this and that was not inspiration)… A lot of misunderstanding due to fear. And it’s a good idea to allow rather than to grasp. I know that I can do it, but I keep getting lost in grasping. It’s stupid really… For example, if I want to write something, I’m grasping and I think about what I should write, what I should write about, how important it is to write the good things, for it to be perfect, how I’m not writing what I “want” to write… I grasp to something I want to write (which is not bad, but the way I do it is quite hurting and counter-inspirational), but I will try and allow the energy to go through. I don’t know why I do it, it never helped me to do anything and I’ve seen many times that allowing was much more stronger… I’ll let the energy of the moment unfold as it should!:) Thanks a lot and I would add to your last part about fear and love that indeed there really is just that, but I saw that love always subsides beneath fear and that one can experience love while he experiences fear. It makes sense for me:) The sun is unaffected by the passing clouds. We think the sun is gone because we are standing on the ground, but the sun didn’t go anywhere. When we are the sun, we are free to experience anything with a loving heart. I don’t think love and fear are opposite, they are complementary, how would we ever stop identifying with the outside world if fear wasn’t there to make us reflect : fear, when we use it correctly leads inevitably to love, deeper and more wise love. Imagine if we can enjoy our own fears how beautiful our lives would be? To just let be these painful thoughts release their energies, understand them and act if it’s required. I don’t think our inner pain is opposite to happiness, can an ill person be happy? I think so… Well, thanks for your thoughts, made me reflect a bit 🙂

    #101940
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear tontonyanou:

    you wrote above about your parents that they encouraged you to do the things you wanted to do, only “They put pressure on me to accomplish these things that I want as if the result was worth more that the thing itself”

    The way I understand it is that they made the THINGS you wanted to accomplish important, and they made the PERSON wanting to accomplish those things (you) not important.

    They focused on the things, not on the person doing the things, putting pressure on the person to do the things, as if it was the things that would bring you mental health.

    So now, when you want to do things, you too focus on the results, as if the person doing the things is not important.

    For improvement of your mental health, can you aim at not continuing your parents’ very mistaken understanding, and with your new understanding, operate for your benefit and not against it by focusing on the person doing the things, and not on the things themselves. Ask yourself throughout the doing of a thing: how am I feeling now? Take breaks to calm down. be mindful, pay attention. It will take time and lots of patience through some distress to learn to change your focus. It is not easy and fast to do.

    Please do post anytime.

    anita

    #101984
    Jan T
    Participant

    Hello tontonyanou,

    I’m so glad you are getting so much from us that resonates with you! I am also enjoying Anita’s responses and your excitement that they are so on target.

    It’s so great that you see there is fear behind “all of your problems.” I teach a course on stress management, and one of my exercises challenges people to come to this recognition for themselves. They can usually identify individual fears, but they have a little more difficulty realizing that most of their problems trace back to one fear or another.

    One day I will write a book on fear because we are all fearful whether we realize it or not. It’s a big issue.

    I think you might also like one of my favorite Buddhist quotes: “There is no way to happiness. Happiness is the way.”

    So if we can find the happiness in “the way,” that’s the ultimate. It is definitely there.

    One time I went to a weekend event where three or four of us were put on the spot by the teacher. He was confronting our issues–bringing them to the surface–and helping us to deal with them. It might sound harsh, but he had a very good heart and a good way of doing this. We trusted him. He discovered with me that I never had a happy childhood. I never played as a child.

    Before one of the breaks, he said to me, “You need to go play during this break.” He gave me some ideas. “There is a plate of cookies in the kitchen. Go take a bite out of one of them and then put the rest of it back on the plate. Go outside on the swing and swing to your heart’s content.” I’ll never forget that. I started adding silly play to my days after that…then more adult play where I found friends who owned boats and we would go sailing on the water.

    Maybe you could try adding silly play into your life, too. Make sure it makes you smile!

    Back to fear again….your analogy with the sun and the clouds is very unique. I like that!

    There is a verse from “The Prophet” about sadness and joy that says something similar to what you said, “…fear, when we use it correctly leads inevitably to love, deeper and more wise love.” The Prophet says we can only feel joy to the same extent that we can feel sorrow.” That sorrow hollows out our cup and then joy can fill that same cup to the same extent. That is very comforting to hear when you are feeling sorrowful.

    And yes, it is true that fear (and other forms of pain) teach us. They motivate us to grow in order to move away from the fear and the pain. They get us moving.

    But I believe we can “identify with the outside world if fear isn’t there to make us reflect.” We can also identify with the inside world (within our soul) without fear. Fear is a powerful motivator. But I have often asked not to be motivated by fear and pain anymore….to be motivated only by positive things.

    On the yoga path, the end goal is total bliss–“ananda.” Sat, chit, ananda means “ever existing, ever conscious, ever new bliss.” Many yogis have achieved this state.

    I was trying to think of an analogy today. But it’s hard to think of something to substitute for fear in the analogy. It’s kind of like walking with a crutch and a cast when you have a broken leg. These implements allow you to walk somewhat well, when otherwise you would be unable to walk. But once your leg fully heals, you are able to throw your cast and crutch away and walk far better without them.

    So fear can motivate us to change for the better, and when we get to that state of happiness and contentment, we no longer need fear to motivate us.

    Returning to your analogy, when we can be the sun, why go under the cloud cover anymore when the sun is ever new bliss (it never gets boring)?

    At the same time, when we are experiencing fear or pain or illness, remaining emotionally unaffected by it is another yogic goal. This is because to be attached to anything, whether we label it good, bad, or neutral, is discouraged. This has to do with a belief in reincarnation. It is said that attachments are what require us to return to a next life so we can learn more lessons. But that’s a different concept than the one you are talking about.

    I think fear is not the same as love and pain is not the same as happiness. The intensity might be the same, and one can even lead to the other, as you say, if we use them correctly. But when we react to them, our reactions are opposite. Fear causes negative reactions and love causes positive reactions. When we truly love someone we don’t fear them. We are drawn toward them rather than running away.

    Also, if we are afraid of something and decide to face our fear, we can prove that it’s not real. If we’re afraid of deep water, like I once was, we can learn to scuba dive and completely overcome our fear, realizing that it was not real.

    This works with most fears. Now, you can say, “I’m afraid if I fall off a cliff I will die, and that is probably true.” But you can say, “I’m afraid if I get close to the cliff I will fall off,” and prove that you will not fall off if you learn to stop projecting yourself down the cliff with your mind and you learn to maintain your balance and gain confidence.

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