Thank you Sammy for your response, I was in two minds whether to or not but I suppose it does help to write it out, I’ve not dealt with this situation well at all and have similar mindsets to others situations, I must say you was an inspiration in how you went from how you first felt to taking control for your own self worth something I’m sorry to say I have failed at.

I’ll briefly summarise, I’m currently going through all the stages of anxiety, sleep issues etc., and I’m trying to handle it as best I can but I am finding it difficult at the moment.

I’ve been seeing someone on and off now for nearly 2 years and I deeply care about this person but it’s seems to have got to the point now where i really have to face up to the fact its gone as far it goes, I’ve never felt connection to someone this strong even when I was in a committed 2 year relationship before.

She has a very hectic life with 3 children and I’m pretty much responsibility free living at home, she has had cold feet a few times and wanted to stop but after nc had been initiated, she will still reach out, always unsure, anyway we was both going through a rough time back in September so agreed to call it a day, I didn’t really want this but the intimacy had stopped, I had been made redundant and was suffering from depression and she was also not in a good place due to a bereavement, she reached out once when she heard I had got a new job which I ignored because I didn’t want any distraction whilst I was getting back on my feet, anyway I have sorted my life out now, changed my career and earning a decent salary and generally in a good place, she started contact again over Christmas to catch up and had a good phone call and I thought this was going to be a chance to start over, anyway we agreed meet up and sleep together but after we did she said she just doesn’t have the feeling to carry it on anymore, I was devastated to say the least but to be honest didn’t have much expectation, she has given so many reasons over the last 2 years why she is unsure I don’t know which one is true, I should of left it at that but have been still talking hoping something will come if it, she’s back on dating sites as well although she has done this when we’ve stop speaking before, we have met up for a walk a couple of times and first time she still seemed unsure and we kissed but since then just become cold and openly admitted she is talking to other ppl and for my sake it’s best we just don’t have any contact anymore which to be be honest I should have initiated.

It’s embarrassing writing this and how I’m tolerating this behaviour but it kinda feels normal now and I’m used to it, I just can’t seem to let go even though this time I am thinking I need to move on as I deserve a hell of lot better, I’ve been there for this girl for anything and not much I wouldn’t do for her, I will say I don’t regret anything because I have changed so many things in my life for the better and i have changed my outlook in life.

Sorry if this is all over the place it’s difficult to write everything down when so much as happened, I haven’t even said the half of it because I could probably write a book, I’m not even sure why I’m posting this all because I know how it is, but it’s difficult to talk to ppl close to me because I feel like a burden talking about it when it has been going on so long, I know it’s my self esteem and it’s so low but I didn’t have any to start with so I’m just trying to cling onto a toxic situation

@Sammy

There are “married” and “married.”

My aunt met my uncle when he was separated. That was back in the 1970s. They celebrated their golden anniversary two years ago.

My brother was separated from his wife and single for five years. Then he was in a relationship with his girlfriend for four years. It is a long story why it took him nine years to divorce, but it had nothing to do with him being ambiguous or unclear about the state of his failed marriage.

I have a lady at work who didn’t hesitate to pursue a very big boss who divorced for her. They have been happily married for over ten years now.

So you see, it is not so much the marriage status per se as the state of the marriage. Especially, when kids are involved and when kids are underage, so that there is the issue of custody.

Remember, B told me right away that he was separated, had no intention to get back with his wife (and had no intention to marry again – be it his wife after the divorce or somebody else). He was living at a hotel at the time and acting like a free agent, too. I guess that was my green light deep down.

It was some time later that it transpired that he was back at their family house, albeit in a separate bedroom. But by then I had already become emotionally involved because of all our communication and sharing.

Besides, he was sharing all that more as a friend rather than a suitor. Again, him telling me right away that he didn’t want to marry and the obvious mess in his relationship with his wife (remember their last-ditch attempt at a retreat to reconcile, too?) meant that I had told myself that I would be seeing him strictly as a friend. But feelings obviously had started to develop.

His ambiguity in terms of “friend” vs “potential lover” came later.

This is why I am not sure if @Dannydan was right suggesting that he pulled away because of my rebuffing his attempts at romance. He pulled away significantly later. After our cuddling, our communication was on at full steam for a good two or three months. And he didn’t make any other significant physical attempts. He didn’t come to spend the night under my roof, did he? It mostly became just words and intentions, which never translated into anything material.

Which made me think that he was battling his “duty” and feelings for me.

Which is why I was so thrown off by his words two weeks ago that he had been looking for somebody, decided I was not the one and that is why he pulled away.

Again, not sure about ROYALLY MESSED UP. It sounds like he pulled away as soon as he realised he was not that into me.

(Only it doesn’t match his body language and obvious excitement at seeing me during our chance encounters for the subsequent two years.)

It is my problem that I had gotten attached so soon despite him being more of a friend than a suitor and despite me clearly seeing all the red flags.

As for the nice words and “locker room banter”, I probably should have learnt a long time ago that not everybody is so careful with words and plans as I am, especially men. If I choose my words very carefully so that I can answer about them in court, if need be, and if I say thank you for the recommendation, I’ll read that book sooner or later and then still read it three years after (!), it doesn’t mean that everyone is like this, going steady, with intentions unchanged, long-term.

I totally agree about consent. I was merely trying to analyse what HE might have been feeling or thinking.

Same thing about my question to @Dannydan as to why he said that if B came back, that would be for serious now, not for an ego boost. If B hasn’t changed, he may very well seek an ego boost again.

I would rather know what men are assuming because not everybody is a gentleman, and I don’t want to end up in a precarious situation.

And no, I don’t want another “adventure.” I want – and have always wanted – something stable and sturdy and long-lasting.

The reason why you didn’t call him out entirely for your pain and tell him you were hurt is because a part of you didn’t want to rock the boat, you still had or have that glimmer of hope that you didn’t want to dash. You didn’t want to give him a reason.

This is absolutely wrong. As said, I hate to complain or ask to be pitied.

To give him a list of what he had said or written meant that I should have had the list handy.

I had deleted our correspondence a long time ago.

And whatever handwritten diary pages I had, I had stuck them in a sealed envelope and put them in a very hard-to-reach place.

Besides, he clearly didn’t remember a lot about what exactly he had said or written five years ago.

It would be ridiculous to expect that he would, if it had been just bla-bla-bla for him.

So it would be like punishing a dog for something it had done two weeks ago. The dog wouldn’t understand.

So wouldn’t he.

He is the type of guy who doesn’t ever leave you when he knows he doesn’t want you long term, and in the end offers the typical “you deserve better” to just look like the good guy.

This is like the vast majority of men.

I am only sorry I got mistaken again.

Thank you, @Sammy1 and @Dannydan for your inputs. It was especially valuable because I got opinions for a woman and a man, so much more objectivity about what had happened.

@Dannydan, I was hoping you could address my two tentative questions above (the same as in my big previous post)?

@Dannydan

I thought I should to be more specific.

Why did you say in your post from the 27^th of February that – I quote – “If he has a change of heart, be sure it’s because he wants a serious commitment”?

From what I shared about how the relationship continued after our cuddling for a good two or three months, just as intense, do you still think he pushed away because he had counted on sex and it didn’t happen so he lost interest?

You put, “Maybe he thought you were marriage material and he wanted casual flings as distraction. Who knows?!”

Did you mean now?

Or when he was married and we met five years ago?

He did say that he didn’t want to marry, but that was five years ago.

Two weeks ago he said he hadn’t been able to see us as a long-term couple back then. Could he have wanted a long-term casual thing five years ago? Is it something that exists? Merely speculating.

Thanks!!!

Hey bro (@Jay)

Boy I’m glad you’re a man, with all this gender fluid/PC culture that would have been a right clanger!

Ahaha, I’ll keep therapist in mind but I’m good thanks, not so long ago I was a mess myself, I think my insight comes from learning from experiences and others. Also my ‘B’ she really has pushed me to change within. All positive effects.

I do get a buzz now helping others in the same or similar predicament – anything that can lessen the pain and spur healing.

What do you mean if you was out? Was this a secret relationship?

You mentioned you don’t understand why she was attracted to you at first. Obviously key thing to note here is lack of self esteem.

I think when two people initially get together it is very rare to find that someone is authentic from the offset, usually people wear masks and these become hard to keep up usually they drop and honeymoon phase ends. So although you were a mess do you feel you may have acted confident or faked it initially?

If that was the case then she was attracted to the fake you not the real you.

In what way did you feel you were incompatible?

The other reason could be is she just needed attention, to feel wanted and used you and took advantage as she realised you were easy to manipulate if you were not in a good headspace.

Why do you feel this is love? Have you ever been in love before? If you are up for it, do an exercise that I did, let me know what you think love is. What love do you feel for her. How does she show you love back in return. What do you need in a relationship? What factors are important?

Once you have written it out, step back and look are you getting everything you need. If you are then of course keep trying. However I’m sure you’ll find that the scales are very unbalanced. This is unrequited.

I mean if she is on/off then what she says holds no value really as she clearly doesn’t know what she wants and usually when women are ambivalent they already know deep down you’re not the one. Hence she can’t demonstrate the something between you you – at this point you should both be in a committed relationship as you’ve had enough time to learn about each other. If you were to ask for that commitment, would she? If the answers no, then her words are breadcrumbs to keep you around as an option, or for attention when she needs.

Another thing I picked up is you said you’ve discarded good friends for less?

This doesn’t sound too healthy. It seems you may be like most of us men you want what you can’t have, formed an attraction patterns especially towards women that are bad for you. The hot and cold makes them more alluring to you but let me tell you, this drama starts to wane you just want peace of mind in the end. These behaviour’s are down to your belief and value system. It can be changed, I’m proof!

I’ll leave it there for now. Tag me if you need anything bro!

• This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Danny.

Hey @Jay sorry about the delay, I didn’t want to rush a reply to you so took some time out from my weekend..

Thank you for your kind words. I know how you feel, when you start questioning your whole being and why despite everything you do for this person it’s not enough. When you love someone, you just want them to love you back. When they don’t and you continue to stay with them its because you have low self esteem or it’s been eroded during the course of the relationship. The longer you stay the harder it is to leave because you lose yourself. It’s hard not to think it’s because you’re not good enough, cool, attractive etc. It’s easier to accept you are the problem if you have always been self critical. The person not choosing you just feels like a confirmation of your inner critic.

It took a lot of strength and reframing, there were bumps along the way but I think I’m getting there.

I like to spoil people especially my partner, go the extra mile always. It is my love language. It forms part of my selfless character, everyone around me kept saying it was a weakness within me or I had abandonment issues from childhood. I always knew it was just because I was a giver, who felt happy when others were happy.

However my last relationship I couldn’t let go or walk away when I knew he was not giving me what I needed, I stayed until he dumped me again. The lessons it taught me was I definitely lacked boundaries, I became needy so I was attracted the wrong sort who didn’t want me but I chased to validate myself, I lost myself. All of which I’ve worked on before entering a new relationship to avoid repeating the same patterns.

There is one thing that’s different about me I think in comparison to the likes of @Shelbyville and @Danny. From a young age or prior to my ex I actually had amazing self esteem. I was happy go lucky and it was the on/off relationship itself that slowly eroded me and I lost myself.  Maybe that’s why I’ve been able to have a quicker recovery and regain my worth because in the past I had always believed in myself. This time I just had become blinded by emotion and attachment.

There are some on/off relationships that work out i.e. Danny’s and Tim’s. But I am sorry to say you need to move on entirely. Right now to her I’ll guarantee you’ll look desperate. She knows she can request sex whenever, get attention etc and you proved that by sleeping with her without commitment and continuing to push for relationship when she has stated she is searching for other guys. This causes attraction to just drop.

She’s not attracted to you enough, the sex must be good though for when she is horny. With women if you have a real emotional connect they fall in love. The fact she hasn’t means there’s something lacking. The longer you stay in this situation you will hurt yourself.
Can I ask something, did you ever buy her anything? Was there any type of exchange?

Also don’t ever over invest yourself in one girl without a form of commitment. Once you do that you start losing your dignity and self respect in her eyes because the relationship becomes one-sided and you could be at her beck and call.

I’m guessing  you attached yourself to the extent that now it is clearly at the end, you will feel like a broken individual because you lack self confidence.

There’s a whole journey of self love you need to take. Otherwise you’ll keep repeating the same cycle.

You know the answer already. Your asking because its hard to make that decision. No one can make it for you, if you want to keep trying no one will judge you. But when you do decide you’ve had enough and choose yourself. You’ll soon with time realise that if she really loved you she wouldn’t keep hurting you.

Why do you want to be with her?

Just incase I’ll objectively list the facts based on what you wrote;
• She doesn’t respect you
• She has always been ambivalent not a good basis for any relationship let alone one that’s been on/off several times
• She has been using you as her dick appointment
• She is incapable of being mature and communicating
• She has 3 children to devote her time to and they’ll always come first
• You will never be her priority

Just like men, some women will selfishly breadcrumb to just keep you around as an option or a backup when they feel lonely or horny so I wouldn’t trust her words.

Did you turn around your life with her support? You mentioned that in September you were rock bottom so did she help you or did you split up? A good woman in dark times pulls you out and helps you up. Food for thought.

Thank you for the detailed responses Danny and Sammy, I’ll answer the questions you’ve asked and pretty everything you have said is spot on, at this point I’m just at the stage of trying to get myself together again which I have a done a few times, difference being this time I’m not blaming myself because I feel I’ve feel done absolutely everything I can, it’s just a horrible situation for me because even though I know it’s not right I hate knowing I have to let go and accept its never going to be more.

At first it was never fake, we knew each other anyway, I just feel that with her complicated life I just didn’t understand why she would be interested in myself but obviously there was a physical attraction, looking back it’s obvious I was used for attention and because she wanted to validate herself, over this whole ordeal I have put her on a pedestal, it probably isn’t love, I’m just basing that feeling off of allowing to be treated the way I have and still wanting to be in this person’s life and be there for them through any hardship, your probably right though it is just human nature and want something that I can’t have, I do question whether if it had gone to a full on relationship somewhere along the line I would have had second thoughts about dedicating my life to someone with 3 children, I can only go on how I feel in this moment, I just feel numb and empty at the moment to be honest probably from withdrawal of not being in contact, at the moment Im finding it difficult to enjoy anything that I used to enjoy and feel down about everything, I need to be thankful about the things I do have such as a loving family and good friends who care about me, I finally found a job I like after spending years in jobs I hated, I passed my driving test in 2010 and never bought a car and I’ve just done that 6 weeks ago and surprised myself how comfortable I was actually driving after putting it off for years because I was anxious to do so, I have discovered a lot about myself in terms of my own potential to achieve goals.

I’m just fighting a lot at the moment with contrasting emotions, it’s only been 2 weeks since we met up for that chat so I guess I shouldn’t be too hard on myself, it’s not just going to go away, this weekend although I just didn’t feel like doing anything I have slept and eaten a lot better, I think the worst moment I’m experiencing at the moment is when I first wake up and I have to the worst anxiety pains in my stomach but as the day goes on although I think a lot about it I’m getting through the day, just feel like I’m on autopilot.

I do take a lot from this thread though as in other people’s ordeals they have got through them eventually and some have found there way to a happier path

@Sammy1

Thank you very much for your opinion.

On the contrary, I am searching for answers now exactly because so much time has passed and I can be more objective. You know, like when you look back and hope that now you would be able to see things for what they really were?

I understand that you think that @Dannydan’s situation with his B is not the same as mine.

However, to me, it seemed that the beginning of it (especially the portion in italics in my previous post) was very much akin to what, as I perceived it, had happened between my B and me.

So I jumped at the opportunity to ask the male involved what his thought and feeling process was.

It may or may not end for me the same way it ended for @Dannydan.

I am NOT holding out any hope, especially less so after our meeting in person two weeks ago.

My ‘B’ is not controlling any thoughts of mine. I don’t wake up thinking about him, go about my day with him at the back of my mind and I don’t fall asleep dreaming about him either.

I am not spiralling, I haven’t lost sleep, I don’t feel the necessity to turn to antidepressants as I did after my breakup with ‘A’.

I agree that I chose to overlook certain red flags.

I’ll do my best not to repeat a similar situation in the future.

I am not sure I am feeling angry at him. Maybe I should.

I can’t say that what I am feeling is sympathy either. I think that what I am trying to do is to put myself in his shoes and find out where he was coming from. As a surgeon performing a dissection. Everyone acts based on what he or she deems best under the current circumstances. I suppose this is my exercise in Buddhist compassion, LOL!

I have also found in the past that it is of help to me to repeat certain things several times – you know, like one would chew on a chewing gum until it loses all flavour and then spits it out. I really feel that this is the last time I need to turn back to this story. The case is now closed.

Thank you and @Dannydan for not disappearing on me. I have read plenty of threads where people would be going back and forth and then suddenly stop answering or deactivating their accounts. Without warning or thank yous.

Hi Sammy, once again thank you for your time to respond and encouragememt to speak out, it means a lot.

It comes and goes to be honest, I’m quite lucky to have a job that takes up most of the day so it helps with not much time to dwell on things, I will have moments where I think I can’t accept what is happening and then I will be able to rationalise with that’s how it is right now and it is out of my control, at the moment I’m not ready to completely rule anything out and trying to not to think too far ahead and concentrate on taking each day as it comes.

I know deep down that it is not right and probably won’t be ever, I just miss having this person in my life so much as we do really get on but there is no way I can accept being just friends at the moment because the thought of her being with someone else will destroy me, so it’s better out of sight out of mind, I suppose the reason it’s hard to let go is because of the past and the fact she has come back to me previously and I just can’t help but think there is something there for her also but if I’m honest with myself she wouldn’t keep doing this if it was strong enough. If she had left it at the first or second time then it would been a whole lot easier to accept but now I’m forever thinking she’s not letting go and isn’t moving on so there must be something. Also it may be the chase and challenge of wanting something that I can’t have, the euphoria I have experienced when she comes back into my life is second to no other feeling I’ve ever had, that being said the trauma of when I get rejected is far outweighing this now.

Maybe it is just the thought of being with someone, I was single for a long time before this started and forgot what it was like to have feelings for someone, it hasn’t always been bad, we have had some really nice periods together but just not consistent, she definitely has commitment issues, her last bf was quite horrible to her after initially sweeping her off feet, her children also have different dads as well so it is consistent pattern that things generally don’t stick with her and think she has that mindset going into relationships and also had a difficult upbringing which she does reference a lot.

As I said initially, I was not interested in pursuing a relationship with her but just curious to be around her and it was exciting but I have grown to have very strong feelings and was very much on board with pursuing something more, I’ve met them all and get on well with them and they seemed to like me and that was a big thing for me as not really be in that scenario previously.

I don’t think I’m unattractive, I know I’m not bad looking and can make people laugh, my worst criticism is my confidence, I’m just very shy and don’t really put myself out there enough for fear of rejection which is something I’m trying to work on, In fact yesterday evening I went to see some friends for a couple of drinks after work so I wasn’t indoors thinking everything over and at the end of the evening I did have an urge to reach out which I did stop myself and I’m very good at doing that usually so can’t see myself slipping up there, I left the ball in her court so if I don’t hear from her then there is no reason to speak anymore.

Anyway there is a girl who I’ve known for a while who I get on well with and been messaging on a friendly basis through the latest lockdown and she messaged me last night, what timing when I felt a bit down! Anyway I thought why not ask her out for a drink, what’s the worst that can happen and? and she was very responsive to this so we are arranging this for next month when hospitality reopens, I’m not saying this is an answer to the problem of getting over someone who I deeply care about but it has given my self confidence a huge boost and something else to think about for now so we’ll just see what happens, surely there is no harm in this? There is definitely attraction there from both sides but never followed through with a date as such so who knows what will become of it.

Again thank you for your time in assessing my situation and provide your thoughts, its feel good to get it all out and share!