@NBC sorry about the delayed response, very busy with work and making time for ‘B’ and wedding planning and house viewings

The concept of sunk cost fallacy is what I have mentioned before too to @Kkasxo.

I hope @Shelbyville gets back to you, but it’s been some time since she’s been away so maybe she will not return.

Tonight I’ll have a proper read of your lengthy response and get back to you as lunch is almost over!

@Dannydan

Wedding planning, house viewings – how exciting!!! So happy for you both!!!

Hope I’ll get there too with somebody special one day. However strange it may seem, I have never really visualised my wedding or future home with anyone – not even when I was a little girl. So at least here, Kierkegaard’s quote, “The most painful state of being is remembering the future, particularly the one you’ll never have” is not applicable to me. I did though picture what I could be doing together will all my love interests – that “quality time” – and it was the fact that I had to turn my back on all those imaginings and start thinking of “me” instead of “us” that hurt the most.

The good news is that I didn’t feel anxiety or anything because of your weeklong silence nor did I come up with anything else to add to that lengthy response of mine.

So take your time! And good luck!!!

@AiyanaHenderson

Couldn’t agree more many people lose themselves in relationships as they cling and morph into their partner. Retaining your own identity, individuality enables you to keep the passion in the relationship.

Unsure of your age but hope the tips you learn enable you to have a successful relationship when you embark on one. Good luck 👍

@Sammy @Kkasxo you both doing ok?

@NBC

How interesting – I’m really surprised to read with regular proximity, all of your single male friends have never made a move on you.

Have you ever been curious enough to ask why?

You mentioned you are a serious monogamous type and already in love before the first date or feel nothing – I’m curious to know how that is possible if you’ve never been able to create something out of a friendship? Would you say it’s more infatuation rather than love?

I’ve mentioned before I fear your all or nothing mentality is detrimental in your relationships.

Looking for someone who meets your needs doesn’t necessarily mean you dump all your crap on them. Each one of us has ups and downs so it is comforting to have a person in your corner who is your anchor.

But it requires a fine balance, you have to give in return. If there’s a fair exchange then it will make your partner feel secure and attraction.

If you constantly dump, then your partner will no doubt feel ‘overwhelmed’ or ‘parental’ or like a ‘therapist’.

So if you can not offer anything to form a healthy relationship then yes, fix your own crap first! I did before reuniting with ‘B’.

With your B, clearly for such in depth analysis there is something unfinished. That could be because you’re valuing yourself based on how others value you. If B hasn’t contacted you, wanting to get back together, then you feel unwanted and get that awful feeling about yourself. It may have absolutely nothing to do with you though too and you simply feel purely your story with him is incomplete.

Considering the amount of time you spend with him on your mind, no matter how much you analyse and try to gain meaning it will not help, further questions will continue to arise as you’re unable to fill in the blanks.

My honest advice is you confront it head on and ask him for a 1 to 1 meet and say how you feel. The longer you leave it the more time wasted, you need clarity. Other than ego is there anything holding you back?

When we really want and believe in something we muster the courage to overcome the fear. Fortune favours the brave.

Just a point I’ve recalled, us men can say stupid things at times especially when we have missed someone, when I met B to clear the air, I also ended up uttering I thought you would have contacted me first, needless to say it didn’t go down too well either.

There’s an element of self doubt and self esteem issue underlying all this but that’s something only you can fix within. No matter how much someone else tries to reassure you,until you accept it. Words will feel hollow.

Food for thought- don’t ever place too much focus on what others perceptions are. You are the only one who knows the person on an intimate level and the intricacies of your relationship. Learning to trust your own instincts is key in keeping the bad eggs away.

If it was mimicry, to do that for an extended period of time would make him manipulative, men can be and if that’s the case then you also have to realise you accepted that treatment which takes you back to the whole possible self esteem issue. Manipulative men prey on insecure women.

@Kkasxo how are you? We haven’t heard back from you since your Covid news. Please let us know how you’re doing . I really hope you’ve recovered xxx

@Dannydan

How interesting – I’m really surprised to read with regular proximity, all of your single male friends have never made a move on you.

Have you ever been curious enough to ask why?

Well, one guy actually did. As I look in retrospect, I think he did make a move on me. I remember him inviting me to lunch to celebrate the end of our lengthy project together. I never paid attention to it in the past, but now I think that it was his attempt at trying to gauge how much he was attracted to me and I to him. He is a great guy, we share a lot in common (upbringing, tastes, always something to talk about), but I have never been attracted to him physically. One year later or so, he started courting my other colleague, very similar to me in physique and age, and they married. He clearly loves her very much, was never daunted by her having two kids from her previous marriage (I met her ex-husband by accident, I am actually afraid that she’d dumped him for this friend of mind) or by her being religious whereas he (and I) are closer to being atheists. This guy is the guy I would go to if I needed advice on anything in life – from taxes to investments to buying a computer. I was never jealous.

We still work together – all the three of us – and they would invite me over for things like Death over Dinner.

Another good friend of mine is single and is a fervent Christian who observes all the rules such as fasting. He never fails to wish me all the best in conjunction with my Saint’s day, always brings me a souvenir from his frequent trips, sometimes invites me for lunch or dinner. He is someone who would always have my back, but alas, even though I like him a lot, I still haven’t been able to fall in love with him despite us having known each other for six years now. And I don’t think him being so religious is the main problem. I care deeply for him as I would for a brother, but not more than that. Funny that I think that his sentiment matches mine. We would make a great marriage of conscious commitment(if it were not for his religious beliefs and lack of mine) and intellectual and emotional compatibility, but not a great marriage of love. I can’t imagine being intimate with him, but at least I could hold hands with him.

As for the others, two thirds of them were either married or actively dating their future wives when we met. As for the remaining ones (and some from the married category), I have a vague feeling that they see me as someone out of their league. I was born and raised in the capital, attended a more reputed university, have a bigger salary. I may be imagining, but I even feel something with a tinge of pity on their part towards me. You know, like anybody would love to have, say, a race horse. But does one have the means for caring for one? No, not really. So one can’t help looking at the horse, loving the view, but one passes by because one wouldn’t be able to provide for the race horse’s life the way it should be cared for. Something like this, but I am not really referring to the material part, more to the intellectual. Something like, “So much to offer, but it is beyond us.”

Interesting that my level of respect, care and trust for these male friends of mine seems to be at about the same level for all of them, with no distinction.

You mentioned you are a serious monogamous type and already in love before the first date or feel nothing – I’m curious to know how that is possible if you’ve never been able to create something out of a friendship? Would you say it’s more infatuation rather than love?

I don’t know. I need to feel the butterflies. Even if they disappear later, I can build on the memory of the feeling (like I did with A), but if there are no butterflies in the first place (or just a thought crossing my mind – “hmm, boyfriend material”, I can’t imagine becoming physical with the guy (the case of the colleague/friend above).

I’ve mentioned before I fear your all or nothing mentality is detrimental in your relationships.

Looking for someone who meets your needs doesn’t necessarily mean you dump all your crap on them. Each one of us has ups and downs so it is comforting to have a person in your corner who is your anchor.

But it requires a fine balance, you have to give in return. If there’s a fair exchange then it will make your partner feel secure and attraction.

If you constantly dump, then your partner will no doubt feel ‘overwhelmed’ or ‘parental’ or like a ‘therapist’.

So if you can not offer anything to form a healthy relationship then yes, fix your own crap first! I did before reuniting with ‘B’.

I am afraid those ‘butterflies’ or the ‘spark’ are the ignition point. Until I feel that – yes, all or nothing. And I have no idea how to bypass it. I really can’t ignore their presence or absence, just physically can’t. But once it is there, I am doing the best I can for the union to be balanced and fair. Maybe even forgive and gloss over much more than I should.

I think it would be fair to say that no matter your B’s virtues, if it hadn’t been for the chemistry, you wouldn’t have started to think about her again. In the same vein, if you could (I know it is superdifficult at the stage you are in right now – in love and all) imagine that there is somebody else out there for you, even more compatible with you than B, you wouldn’t go for it, because of how good you “feel” with B. Isn’t it so?

With your B, clearly for such in depth analysis there is something unfinished. That could be because you’re valuing yourself based on how others value you. If B hasn’t contacted you, wanting to get back together, then you feel unwanted and get that awful feeling about yourself. It may have absolutely nothing to do with you though too and you simply feel purely your story with him is incomplete.

Well, I am a firm believer in that no matter how good / intelligent / virtuous and so one and so forth one is, if there is no chemistry, things won’t fly. Since I’ve met so many decent guys for whom I couldn’t ever feel a thing, I am totally okay with men not feeling anything for me even though I am such and such.

But given that it seems that I am by nature so selective and of such a monogamous disposition, I wouldn’t mind increasing the pool so to speak, simply to improve my chances of stumbling upon somebody whom I like and who likes me too.

That said, when there has clearly been a strong mutual attraction, chemistry (like with the guy I met when travelling and with B), and when it amounts to nothing, it just leaves me with a big question mark. With the ‘guy in-between’ – what was the point of spending time wooing me, organising that magic date day and night (knowing that I would be leaving his city the next morning), taking my goodnight (and no sex) very well? With B – how could all that communication and chemistry not have resulted in something more definite that “Are you mine?” and “Ugh, sorry.”

In short, B made me seriously question my gut feeling. When I had the same feeling before, it would mean that the man is in love and romance awaits! After him, I don’t know if I can trust my gut feeling any more!

Considering the amount of time you spend with him on your mind, no matter how much you analyse and try to gain meaning it will not help, further questions will continue to arise as you’re unable to fill in the blanks.

Sammy is saying the very same thing.

My honest advice is you confront it head on and ask him for a 1 to 1 meet and say how you feel. The longer you leave it the more time wasted, you need clarity. Other than ego is there anything holding you back?

It is not so much ego as hope (well, not really) – me giving him a chance to reach out to me first.

But even that is not the most important thing here. I am listing a few considerations here in no particular order.

It is more like after reading dozens of stories here on TinyBuddha and elsewhere on divorced men, I really want one year to have passed after the divorce stamp. No matter for how long he had considered himself to be separated. Maybe even more so given his going back and forth to his wife.

Also, one more year will mean that his daughter, and he is very attached to her, will be even more grown-up and more independent and less reliant on her father. Especially when getting together with friends and entertainment opportunities elsewhere are limited because of the pandemic.

It will also mean that his ex-wife’s wounds would have healed at least a little bit. I would really hate her to tell her girlfriends, “Just look at B – hardly had a year passed from our divorce when he is already dating somebody.”

Of course, I am running ahead, he may not even respond to my request to meet. Nor am I proposing that he date me (I already confessed my interest soon to be four years ago). But if I entertain some vague hope for him to want to be in a relationship with me, I do want him to be in the best state of mind possible for it, ready and all. Not like he cut me off that night we met, “I don’t want to get married.”

I agree that he may have already found somebody new. I haven’t looked up his Twitter, as promised, but he doesn’t necessarily post everything in his personal life there anyway. Even if he does between now and the autumn, it is no guarantee that the relationship will survive anyway. Isn’t timing everything? But then again, there is no telling when the “sweet spot” is.

So ultimately it doesn’t matter when the time is best – now or in the autumn.

There are a couple of more notches. By the time the autumn arrives, I will have read a significant portion of books and watched a few films I have wanted to read and watch for a long time. It has been like a weight on my conscience.

I have also planned a holiday (as much as one can possibly ‘plan’ something in the times of COVID) with a route that would take me to the place where he studied and I would also be coming home from the city from which A and I came home from our very last trip together. I didn’t specifically plan it that way, my route just naturally worked out like that. Kind of a logical conclusion, drawing the final line.

Of course, the two things above (books & films and the trip) can be easily adjusted. I can read the same books and watch the same films when in a relationship and nothing prevents him from coming with me or me going alone on the trip whilst in a relationship. Danny, I am not fantasising – I am merely stating this as a possibility, I am not daydreaming nor is my imagination painting any details of how it might pan out were he in my life for real. I am not allowing myself to build on developing details and adding colours to the idea. Really. Just casually stating.

Also, in the autumn, we may not have masks any more. Here, if he wanted, we could go for a walk with no masks on, but he could just as well want to keep his on, and then I wouldn’t be able to read his face and expression.

On the flip side, there is less risk of him being recognised if we meet and he has a mask on, he has sometimes been in the past. The last thing I want is gossip that there is something between him and me…

I don’t want him to think that I have been stalking him either. Even though this is exactly what I had been doing until I cut that Twitter habit of mine.

Oh, and I missed my hairdresser’s appointment, so my roots are already showing. I wouldn’t want him to see me for the first time in four-and-a-half years like this.

When we really want and believe in something we muster the courage to overcome the fear. Fortune favours the brave.

I am a little afraid, I acknowledge. I might add there is also an ingredient of not wanting to let go of the hope. On the other hand, stupid me could still cling to hope even if he said no a thousand times. I am not dwelling on this. Just stating as an option, like above.

Just a point I’ve recalled, us men can say stupid things at times especially when we have missed someone, when I met B to clear the air, I also ended up uttering I thought you would have contacted me first, needless to say it didn’t go down too well either.

This would be too good to be true. Don’t even want to recall all the similar occurrences in books and films. Novels were written for a reason and the same is true for films, especially romantic ones.

There’s an element of self doubt and self esteem issue underlying all this but that’s something only you can fix within. No matter how much someone else tries to reassure you,until you accept it. Words will feel hollow.

I suppose the main thing here is being perplexed as to whether I can trust my perceptions of people any more. It feels as if if I could be so mistaken about B, how can I trust my own judgement about anything at all and anybody else in my life???

So when is your wedding?

I tried to find how long you have been dating B overall and failed. Don’t you have a tinge of doubt that it might be too early to marry? Just curious. Men are usually the last ones whose minds are crossed by the idea of official marriage, lol 😊

Well there’s a very fine line between being friends and being lovers and that is: sexual chemistry. If you don’t feel the sexual desire then you simply don’t. That’s normal, we are not all attracted to one another.

Although your Christian friend and you have a very strong foundation for a solid relationship you are missing a key element. You don’t have intimacy in some form whether that’s kissing or bumping uglies because that sexual urge or attraction for one another is lacking. Which is a shame! But it is what it is. You got to keep it 💯

With ‘B’ I have always felt a sexual desire even over other mediums and boy in person I couldn’t keep my hands off her. The issue for me was not being able to act on it fully because of her beliefs.

I contorted this in my mind due to insecurities and projected in a cruel manner. With maturity I see it for what it is a difference in that particular value and a need to compromise.

I was very much the all or nothing type too, believing in sparks – I thought based on my past relationship, without the home run or full physical side I wouldn’t develop a deep romantic attraction for someone.

I was wrong though. Romantic attraction requires time and work, continuous work. That’s what keeps the relationship 🔥

The connection and current levels of intimacy I share with ‘B’ is wonderful, with her I experience it on all levels; spiritually, intellectually, physically and emotionally. This no doubt will translate into the final physical act when the time comes.

This investment in this connection took a lot of reflection and growth to achieve. So don’t get caught up in this notion that my relationship appears as it is stuff of romantic fairy tales and all butterflies and rainbows.

It was very challenging and required patience and compromise. I honestly believe it was worth it all.

I don’t need to imagine if there’s someone better out there, I hurt her a lot after the initial 6 months or so. So I chose only to contact her once I had a new outlook, knew I was not going to ever feel GIG effect of what I’m “missing out” on and to be honest she was special, I always knew that from the way she saved me from drowning in darkness. ‘B’ is all I need i was just immature and hurt from my prev relationship to see it.

It’s quality over quantity, ‘B’ and I had a situationship from Summer 19 to just before Xmas 19. I took about 4 months to sort my shit out properly after breaking up with C so approached B in Nov 20 almost a year later and we’ve been together since. So a total of 9/10 months together.

No I don’t have doubts about choosing to marry her because I knew to be with her it would need to be a serious long term commitment. I’m still a work in progress so on the rare occasions still have some self doubts but they are just the old fears but I have open communication with ‘B’ and her emotional awareness is amazing.

Like I said it wasn’t a fairytale it took graft and reaching an impasse in life to realise who I was, what I needed, etc. I hurt people and wasn’t always the mature well adjusted individual i am now.

‘B’ inspired that change within me. I love the me I am with her. So I can’t wait (for more than one reason ahaha) to cement our union.

We have already given our notice to marry but would like to keep the date private but yes I’ll let you know once we’ve officially tied the knot.

It’s possible to increase your pool or re educate your attraction patterns – I don’t know if you can as you seem very stuck in your ways. I’m a very curious and reflective person so I took it upon myself to research and rectify my issues, maybe you need to try engage with a relationship coach or therapist?

Glossing over your needs in a relationship isn’t healthy either. It should be a relationship where you are both genuinely happy to step up for one another. That means you need someone who emotionally understands your needs and can work with you rather than demand things on their terms only! That is a trait of a selfish partner.

With the “in between man” – did he state he was looking for a serious relationship or even state his intentions?

It appears to be just your common fleeting holiday romance and the type of man who enjoys the chase itself.

Whereas maybe you got caught up in your own expectations, the idea of what you’ve imagined so automatically expect the other person to make that happen. That is something you can definitely work on. Not expect the same reactions from others.

Listening to your intuition helps you avoid unhealthy relationships and situations.  Your gut instinct is not infallible though especially if you’ve been hurt before. Those fears can make everything murky.

If you have doubts, the best advice I can give you is bring them up to your partner first. That will guide your feelings, how your partner reacts is very telling. A healthy relationship involves emotional growth and understanding, compassion and patience.

I’d also like to point out men if they are not looking to have a serious relationship will throw out those red flags, so don’t fall into the trap of overlooking those.

Often they throw out these phrases to appease their own guilt when they lead you on. No accountability required. Sign of an emotionally stunted man, so don’t let your own emotions cloud your judgement.

Remember not everyone is you (monogamous) and with sincere intent. There are many narcs, catfishers and snakes out there who will gladly use you for their own gains.

In summary, I kind of think analysing the situation with your B is sinking you further into that rabbit hole. So please do not be offended but I don’t think I should encourage the analysis any further.

It’s been such a long time, you need to decide is he someone you want to take a punt on?

If he is you’ll automatically throw caution to the wind and confront the man for answers and clarity. If he is what you believed then it will have a chance to prosper. If he is someone who just used you for an emotional affair then that’s a blessing too you finally can bury the past and move on.

As Sammy rightly said if you’re thoughts are transfixed on him you’ll never give another man a chance. So you are the only one who is standing in the way of your own happiness.

If you feel it’s unfinished, finish it. No excuses, its too early, it’s too x, y, z. At the end of it all if he wants you he will go for it. Just like ‘B’ did with me. It was a risk for her too but the feeling of wanting it clearly overpowered everything else.

You have a very analytical mind @NBC, I completely get that because I’m the same.

From personal experience, I think you need some tough love.

Danny has given you some very good advice but you like to dissect each part to understand the why’s? This will just lead to more and more questions and a spiral. I was the same until I decided to confront my ex and it gave me the peace I needed. So snap yourself out of it or you’ll find yourself wasting yet more of your precious time.

Sometimes analysis is good to prevent mistakes or grow. However there comes a point where you have to stop, where you have to accept you’ll never know why certain things happened. Essentially all you solidly know are your own intentions. It would be amazing if everyone in life could give us honest feedback and accountability for their actions unfortunately very very few people are honest, genuine and transparent enough to do that.

That guy in between who took you on a magical date knowing you were leaving, may have had several reasons but that doesn’t matter, the main thing is you enjoyed it, it prodded you to experience relationships again. You didn’t harm him, that’s your take away from that.

You have not gained acceptance for the chapter with B. If pride is not an issue, you believe it had more legs then the only thing like Danny suggested is to confront him.

With every man if they really want you they will not pass the opportunity again when they know it’s now or never.

You could wind up wasting your time on someone who doesn’t even think about you.

Or you could end up marrying this man, who knows? The thing is unless you actively take the steps forward you will never know.

The worst case scenario will be be like you said an illusion brought to naught but the silver lining is you can actually really begin the process of moving on and then really opening up your mind and heart to someone new because if you just keep entertaining hope with B, you’ll never find space for someone new. You’ll compare and ruin all your future relationships.

Get yourself out of this cycle , as soon as you can. Once these musings become a habit, you will cry and fall and resolve , yet go back to it the next second. It’s all in you mind.

Betting on potential wasted many precious years of my life,yes in the end the very thing I desperately wanted over the years happened, he wanted to fight for me. But by then I had grown resentment for him. It wasn’t healthy and too much water under the bridge to even start afresh.

@Dannydan ‘s relationship and @Tim1 ‘s only worked out because they hadn’t got too deep. So the mistakes made although unfair on their partners were forgivable and fixable, thus allowed space to create a healthy new relationship.

@Kkasxo and mine were over years and in the end taught us what love wasn’t.

@Shelbyville finally saw that her ex was also toxic, the on/off nature meant they couldn’t sustain a healthy relationship even if she loved her ex.

You don’t seem to have been so enmeshed with B, so there’s that small chance, also you obviously can’t reach closure on your own so it’s time to just confront this finally.

Yes. I’m scared of being intimate again. Scared of if the physical connection I experienced with my ex will ever be experienced again but Danny is right i just need to take it slow and not compare.

@Dannydan thanks for your sage advice, I’m doing ok. Swamped with work and finding a new place but happy to be moving my life forward. Your advice is helpful and appreciated don’t ever feel like it’s going unheard!

It’s was curious because @Shelbyville always wanted that physical connection again, so wondering how she dealt with it and found it again with her new partner.

I’ve never been one for ONS and do want a longterm relationship.
That’s why I will not enter anything without being sure, I respect him too much to lead him on.

I always have needed an emotional connection to even want to kiss a man. I like @NBC find kissing very intimate and could only do it with someone I was attracted to and wanted more with.

I do feel like I want to touch my besties bro, hold his hand etc but at same time I am petrified as I know once it feels real I’ll get carried away and what if he decides he doesn’t feel the same anymore and not wanting something longterm? Guess it’s old rejection fears

I have always liked him and it’s funny how he’s always been there, we have always had great banter and chemistry but it wasn’t until recently I started to see him in a romantic light and feel desire for him.

I can imagine undressing him when I’m around him now and it’s weirdly exhilarating when we flirt and petrifying.

Who thought almost a year on I’d find the courage to begin a new. I’m so glad of the work I’ve done on myself before considering someone new. I know I will not hurt him because I haven’t rushed it to fill a void.

I’m so happy and excited for you Danny. Very proud of you too!! You’ve grown and come a long way. I hope your union keeps going from strength to strength!
I do look forward to reading how you feel once the union is cemented in more than one way 😉