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  • #271023
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cali Chica:

    I will point out just one thing, a way to look at it that you may not have considered, and I am suggesting a way  that is  true to reality, of course.

    You see your mother as the victimizer and you-and-your-sister as two victims. You want to help her, the other victim. You think she was harmed more, you were harmed less, so you can help her.

    She sees her mother and you as her victimizers, she sees her and you as having been abusive to her.

    See the difference?

    anita

    #271033
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I know exactly what you mean.  And have even thought about this..  Here’s the thing.  Sometimes I think about how she is harmed “more” and sometimes I don’t. In reality, she is not harmed more.  To be quite honest I think about it more like this, my mother is the victimizer and my sister and I are BOTH the victims. (in reality it is not a concept that she or I or anyone had it “worse” because the true reality is that we suffered from a mother who did not provide us true love, foundation, and support)

    The way I see it is like this, and sorry if it is graphic.  There are 2 girls who are raped by the same man.  One is older, and has some more things going on in her life.  The other is younger.  They both suffered trauma and abuse from this man.

    Now, the older one, has made progress to work through her trauma, and she is extending a hand to the younger one.  But – as you can see, it is impossible for this rape victim to help the other one process her trauma.  Not only is it not possible, it also makes the older one regress back into traumatic patterns and ways.

    #271035
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cali Chica:

    You entirely missed  this part: your sister believes that you sometimes abuse  her.

    anita

    #271037
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    you wrote “your sister believes that you sometimes abuse her”

    I see.  In a way I understand as well.  I have often been such a strong domineering personality.  I have put her down many times in my life, making it known I resented her, or that she burdened me with her problems or inadequacies.  I know this has not been easy for her.  This combined with my mother she felt like the black sheep.  That cali chica could do no harm, yet she was incapable and never good enough.  I of course never instilled that in her (my mother did) but I can’t say I did not contribute to it, when I was always “hard on her”

     

    #271039
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I know I am still missing your point, so would like you to elaborate.  I will say I can see how she feels I am abusive, but also I know she sees me as her sole support…

    #271047
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cali Chica:

    Just like she sees her parents, abusive but also “her sole support”. She shared with  me  in her thread that she very much  sees her parents as her support, way before she chose to live with them again.

    First and  best thing you can do for her is protect her from abuse.  She believes you abuse her, protect her then. In reality, an abuser  cannot abuse a victim and support them, it is one  or the other.

    An abused child keeps reaching out to the parent for support, not knowing the two don’t go together, not able  to consider the reality that there is  no  support in abuse. But she keeps reaching out to them for support and she keeps  reaching out to you for support.

    I will soon be  away from the computer for about sixteen hours, but  I  will  wait for the next  half an hour or so for your reply, if it comes. I think this is a difficult concept to digest, isn’t it.

    anita

     

    #271051
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    It is a difficult concept indeed.  I guess I feel that I AM protecting her from abuse by steering her in the right direction, by offering support, by sharing my now family.  But I also see that she is likely overwhelmed by a lot of this, and also needs to find her way.  I guess I also feel that by instilling values in her, that I have now learned, I am protecting her – that I am guiding her.  Helping her navigate away from the life of distraction, outwardness, and escapism – to inward focused life.  (not with me or for me per se, for herself).

    Perhaps, my tone and manner and intention must change.  Showing her hard and tough love and guidance is not going to work for someone who feels abused by me.  Perhaps gentle support but with some boundary is better.  Clearly this person does not need to feel more battered or abused.

    And in the sense that I feel quite overwhelmed by her, like the intervention in my prior post, perhaps it is better for me to provide this sort of support – as the more depleted and resentful I become, the more abusive I would be as well.

    It reminds me in a way of being a parent. I don’t need to be her parent, she can find her own way – yet when she suffers and has breaking points, it is hard for me to not swoop in and be the guiding parent.

    I take away from this that over involving myself, and taking on her issues is not helpful for her, and if it leads me to be angry and resentful to her, it is even more abusive towards her.

    #271053
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I am also thinking about one of your first comments today, the fact that you wrote that when you were unwell you thought that you could help your sister. And that perhaps I believe that I can help my sister. I wonder if that is still relevant given our conversation thus far. Perhaps it is true, I need to  stray away from how much I try to “help” my sister and simply try to “protect her from abuse”.  I wonder what that means, I am sure we can elaborate more tomorrow as I know you will be heading away from the computer

    #271099
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cali Chica:

    I kept the  computer on longer than the half hour I mentioned yesterday but lost the internet, tried to retrieve it but wasn’t able to, eventually I gave up and proceeded with the rest  of my  day.

    It  may very well be that  you were abusive to your younger sister when the two of you were children. It happens often that siblings in an aggressive household turn against each  other, the older against  the younger. I physically abused my younger sister, regretfully. In your sister’s thread, she shared what you told her as adults, and  according  to her quote, you were clearly verbally abusive to her.

    In your post yesterday, you wrote: “I have put  her down many  times in my life”.  If she was a  child when you put her down, then your abuse  of her happened during  her formative years, and  even if you  no longer do, that childhood experience gets activated  in the  present.

    In her experience she has two or three abusers of  origin: mother, sister, father. This is why “she felt like the  black sheep”- in her experience there weren’t two black sheep, you and her, only one.

    Last summer, “one day while she was living with my  parents, she had a terrible breaking point. I drove from my in laws…”- a person at a breaking  point will ask for and receive help from anyone. Not long before the recent summer she lived far away from her parents, needed help, they were willing and therefore she moved in with them.

    Come Christmas she chooses to be with  people she just met, than to be with you or with her  parents.

    Let’s look at your example: “The way I see it is like this, and sorry if it is graphic. There are 2 girls who are raped by the same man. One is older… The other is younger. They both suffered trauma and abuse from this man”-

    I will add to it that following  the rape by the man, the older girl raped the younger girl (in a  different way, still a rape). As the younger girl grows up, she sometimes get angry at the man and stays away, at other times when she  is desperate for help, she reaches out to him. She is sometimes angry at the older girl, but when she needs help, she reaches  out  to her.

    Sometimes she  feels good  and  forgets about the rape and has fun spending time with the man, or with the  older girl.. then she remembers, becomes angry or so troubled that  she needs help… from anyone willing.

    What is right for the younger girl in your example is to  stay away from both, the man and  the older girl. She doesn’t know  it when  she is hurting badly because she is too desperate for  help. And she  doesn’t know it when sometimes  she has fun with  either one, or a feeling of comfort.

    Your thoughts?

    anita

    #271119
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita

    so very well put. Thank you.  I do agree, and can see why she feels abused by me. In fact, I did not actively physically abuse her, and during her formative years, I wasn’t always present. However, I will say that my role in her life because of my mother was often very abusive. To elaborate, if I came home from college it became all about me, my mother would use me as a way to put her down further. Perhaps I also added to that without even knowing.  Perhaps I added to that actively as well. Or, I would go along with my mother. It was her and I against my younger sister. Given that my mother saw her and I as one, and felt like I was her chummy other half, I can look back and see how many times I just went along with my mother.   I recall a dance recital during which my sister was unable to perform as expected, and my mother was devastated. I recall feeling quite torn, I was there for my sister and feel angry at my mother for putting so much pressure on a young girl, however I did not take my sister in my arms and say it is OK and that my mother was wrong.    Of course not, only now do I have such insight, and so much more.

    I do agree that an order for my sister to heal, she does have to spend time away. I also see that this is what she is trying to do without saying the word.  I do not believe that my sister and I have to be a no contact. I do believe that this will be more harmful for both of us then beneficial. But, understanding that my sister is not my mother, and vice versa, there is a lot of good to the relationship.    Given that she does have more insight and capability that my mother, and so do I, I do believe that our relationship can strengthen over time in respect, as we can both heal independently.

    Yesterday I thought a lot about what we spoke about. I went for a jog, something I have not done in a long time. I was able to jog more than normal, caught up in my thoughts about all of this. When I finish my job, I realized, like many things in my life I do try to control my sister. I have been so caught up and what has allowed me to heal, that I push it on her. Without any understanding that I too was an abuser of her.    Addition, my tone and manner can be very domineering at times, and although I do believe it comes from a good place, that is hardly the point right now. What this person needs is protection from abuse. That is simply it.

    #271129
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear  Cali Chica:

    Seeing reality as-it-is, really is the best way and the only way to mental health.

    What all this means, this latest insight that I am having in this very communication with you, is that for the purpose of helping your sister, you have to withdraw all help from her.

    In other words, you have  not been helping her. Every time you helped her so far, as an  adult, you have hurt her, every time.

    The help she needs cannot  possibly come from you. If you are interested in her mental health, leave her alone and let her be. If it comes to it and she is not able to afford quality psychotherapy, pay for those sessions. That is all.

    anita

    #271145
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    That is wonderful and succinct advice. I agree wholeheartedly. I am impressed by your ability to map out complex concepts and put them into –  simply the truth.

    After all, all of the progress that I have made in understanding what the truth is, and being able to progress in my life has come down to simple phrases hasn’t it? Oh so long ago it seems you said to me, get off the crazy train. You explained me that the only way I had a chance at a saying a normal life is to not have my mother in it. Oh how complex it all seemed back then, and Surely it is, entries and entries, stories upon stories. But what did it all come down to? That I should not have contact with my mother. Simply this. Time and again no matter what the story. It came back to this. Because – after all this is the truth, I am living the truth every day. Just like above, I must leave my sister alone, I am not helping her.  The help she needs cannot possibly come from me.

    It makes sense to me why I would get so distraught when I was “helping” her. Because Did not see the light: I was not really helping her at all.  so that got me even more frustrated given that I was putting out immense effort. But this is not the way. This is not the path. Not for myself. Not for her – not for anyone.

    It makes perfect sense Anita, my job is to protect her from abuse, it is not to “help“ her.

     

    I will let this sink and savor, I would like to write to you more later on today

    #271155
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear  Cali Chica:

    “sink and savor”- maybe that would be the title  of your book  one day.

    You are welcome and write tome later, anytime!

    anita

    #271195
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    my sister came over for dinner today as my husband was going to give us our Xmas presents (it was a group surprise so he wanted us to receive it together). All in all – long story short. After he left he was at a tipping point. It is hard to explain but over a year ago when things got really bad with my mother it began to really affect him. This is because of how it affected me. It’s that being around my mother / her energy would change me into a different person. Of course that was on me, but her presence would turn me into this person who non stop entertains talks, makes people laugh, on on on, a manic energy. And also an angry resentful person for the despair  and desperation the person brings

    I do the same with my sister. And after our conversations I tried to be more aware of it, but inevitably it is still there and would take a ton of conscious effort to be aware of and even change. That is a conversation in itself

    Anyway – so one small example for today about my sister is that she decided not to come to his parents party for Xmas and so we brought the gift home from his parents. (This example is not about a gift or material thing, but a concept). She opens it and says thank you and all. Then a short while later begins saying how it’s not something she would use, or a brand she likes as it isn’t what people wear anymore. I quickly jump in and say oh don’t worry we can exchange it – or find something else at the store. Feeling quite bad she is saying this in front of my husband. Like hello what NOT to say when his mother kindly got you a sweet gift and invited you to their home

    Once again only a small example this entry of mine today is not about that – it’s about a breaking point

     

    So ar the end of the night after my sister leaves, my husband who never complains or brings things up unless he is at his WITS END – said. Wow after all that your sister is sitting there acting like she is too good for a gift from my parents. She literally has no self awareness or respect. He is angry  he is fuming. He is beyond frustrated

    He spoke about a few more things, and the way I act like a manic frenzied person when she is around (absolutely true, and feels uncontrollable and automatic). I saw in him what I’ve only seen once before. A man who literally has nothing left.  I saw this months before I went no contact with my mother.  He is so frustrated tears are almost coming out of his eyes. Like someone who has given his all (he has and you’ve read this in the past)

    He said – now that he has the insight of my family – that he is sick and tired of the same thing over and over. And that my sister being around is starting to feel just like that. (Background he is amazingly supportive of her in all ways ) – but the combination of her energy, the way she acts, and MOST importantly the way I act and who I turn into around her – is just too much.

    I see it exactly clearly. If someone on the outside heard this they would think of this as simply a husband annoyed with his wife’s family. But this is not that. It is the feeling of toxicity and anxiety creeping in. It is above all when someone has had enough they have nothing left. This is after years of torture and trauma from my mother.

    We made SOO much progress over the past 2 months while at his parents house and away. And it feels like it is all undone, a huge step back. He said it himself – and he usually would be positive and optimistic. But he spoke the truth. We are back where we started. It feels terrible- it is terrible  – and foolish it feels too

    It has gotten so bad over the last 2 weeks. Over the last 2 weeks I am agitated and anxious at almost every moment. I have had horrendous insomnia, and my anxious energy of course transfers to him. I’ve been negative and ruminating – and nothing like the progress I have made.

    Bow ofncourse this is multifactorial and I do know some biological triggers for anxiety in me that I am working on. But I do also know that as soon as my sister decided to move here it has been overwhelmed by her. Her coming over. Asking us which apartment. Not even having furniture or a second to breathe but immediately sitting down and helping her find an apartment.  It being present for even a second about this new chapter we are starting because now it’s abour helping her sell her car and how she will do this and that. Going to the bank to get her money. Bam our vacation and week to ease into nyc life is over. Where did it go? These are all small and simple things. These are normal. This is perfectly fine. But it’s the emotional aspect of it. I do feel I have been entirely enveloped in her, and as a result it has become all about her for my husband too. I don’t just blame myself though. The example today about the purse gift she received is just one – she does not have awareness of how she comes off to others – and I make excuses for it – but at a certain point others will have low tolerance especially when they are putting so much energy into assisting you.

    I dunno Anita. It leaves me in a tough spot. It’s not a choose my husband or her situation.  No it’s not. But I know first of all I need to change my behavior around her. I turn into an immature lunatic with frenzied energy that doesn’t relax. It is on me to change that. I also no that some distance is key. My husband just started a very tough new job and I should have respect for this and not constantly dig him deeper into family drama. It is inevitable sure. But I can have boundaries and spend time with my sister elsewhere and less often. That would be better for all. She came over with a sense of loneliness and feeling lost. But I know that I can not help her. We talked about this earlier and I let that sink and savor.

    What i know is that my sister has to find her path. If along the way this destroys my marriage because the effect it has on me (and as a result my husband) that is not okay. She is not the one destroying it- I would be letting the situation create harm. So in reality it is the situation. A tough one and how to do damage control.

    I know Anita something must change – I feel as horrible as I did right before no contact – and it’s hard to explain What the situation is exactly. It’s about energy and interaction and not what my sister and I truly said or did. It’s her dog peeing all over the floor and her slowly getting up, and  or having a reflex sorry,while I run there and clean it all up. It’s not about cleaning – it’s about the difference in reaction and personality. And if I or anyone else was in that situation would quickly get up and apologize. It’s aboit getting a gift from someone who really is being nice as they aren’t your own family. And after opening it saying to my husband oh it’s not a brand People really use I feel bad. It’s not about the purse it’s aboit respect. It’s about feeling like my husband and I are parents to her. And no,  not because I am being domineering. Because she truly needs us. Who else will pay for her first 2 months rent? Who else will help her navigate adulthood like selling her car. Who else would help her find this job. All that though Anita is the easy part. I do it gladly. So does my husband. It’s not about those thugs. It’s that my husband is at a breaking point. Perhaps I just need to do a better job at acting mature around her and not regressing back into a CHILD. Or perhaps I need to see she is a trigger and create space. Perhaps I am expecting too much of my own self  during this time of HEALING for me. How easily I forgot that I am still healing aren’t I. No wonder I feel like utter garbage – I’m still healing – how could I take on this…?

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by Cali Chica.
    • This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by Cali Chica.
    #271207
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Sorry for my rage and venting tone – I wanted to add one more thing. It is hard to explain but perhaps you’ll be able to see what I mean when we speak next.

    Its that in a way I act immature and childish as a way to make my mother (and sister) happy. It was always a default to entertain them and make them laugh and feel less alone. It was a default role I was given years ago without asking for it, it became innate – not the personal fault of anyone. It’s that oh when Cali Chica comes home she “lights up the house.” I would have friends over and stories and bring my sister here and there. I helped create a life for her. Entertainment. And as for my mom – well there was so much of that to help make her happy. Of course it never worked. So his is the root of this immature scatter brained silly clownish behavior. That at this age and stage is useless, immature, and clearly something I nor my husband want around. With that – and this is huge. I NEVER learned respect for marriage from my mother. As you know. It’s all about what was over there. Not here. Moreover, and this is difficult to explain – I think I deep down inside feel guilty – so I will quickly push aside respect for my husband and instead “clown around” with my sister. Not because she asks me to – but it is a way I relate to her and also not make her feel like she doesn’t have “me.”  This is silly because clearly she and anyone knows that I am a married woman and I have other priorities too. But it’s not them it’s me. I instantly do this and almost downplay my maturity responsibility and my husband/marriage as a priority.

    Here’s a small example. Before she left today she’s like do you want to sleepover. She was half joking. But in reality if I didn’t downplay it so much,  a younger sister wouldn’t ask her older married sister (whose house she’s at) to come sleepover at hers. She didn’t mean harm by this.

    My example is that it’s My behavior. I act foolish. I act childish. I don’t act like a mature married woman. Instead I “stoop down” to a fun kid that I assume would be relatable for her. I disregard that my husband should be my priority and act silly – so that she feels happy and included. I do this all subconsciously. Because see when it’s the three of us hanging out it was always fine. Just like family. But when I act like this it doesn’t help anyone. My sister isn’t asking me to. And she’s younger and influenced by me – so it’s an act she follows. If I act all silly and foolish- and the next day say gosh you being here makes me all frenzied and makes my husband annoyed. Well that’s on me.

    Juat wanted to add that. The first post and the example about how she reacted to the gift are still relavent. And those are on her. But in this world I must focus on what I can change. And perhaps that’s my behavior – and allow my husband some space away from the ups and downs.

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