HomeâForumsâRelationshipsâNeed some space to vent and maybe a shoulder
- This topic has 57 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by Matt.
-
AuthorPosts
-
October 6, 2017 at 7:53 pm #172019MattParticipant
Hi Matt,
I just now read your post. I see that you received alot of replies. I have not read them, but I will give my short perspective. I could not do it. If I were married, I could not share my husband with another woman. The thought of even thinking about my ex with another woman kissing or having intercourse makes me nauseated, or wanting to have a panic attack. I feel God made marriage between one man and one woman, an open marriage is out of the question, to me itâs not a marriage, just a roommate situation, no matter if they are the love of your life. I couldnât even think about it. Its Itâs all or nothing for me. I canât or wonât share my husband. Itâs wrong.
Eliana,
I appreciate your outlook on marriage and will tell you that I have really taken a deep look at what defines a marriage generally, and what defines my marriage specifically. Relationships are strange right and each one is unique. The way I look at it is like you or your partner having a best friend who is the opposite sex. Have you ever heard of that? I know quite a few people who share this, even to the point where they truly love their best friend. So you can have love for two members of the opposite sex, albeit two different types of love. Would you allow your partner to love a member of the opposite sex? Then there is the intimacy portion of relationships, this gets harder for me, although I have had some very interesting discussions concerning this. It is a subject that can get into some very frank discussions that I think are better handled in person. It is a very personal discussion concerning happiness, pleasure, growth, and exploration. I am still not sure one way or the other, but it has allowed me to venture into a very uncomfortable zone which I am learning is quite refreshing after all is said and done.
My wife and I love each other, we are raising children together, taking care of family members, and are trying to live a fulfilling life. The fact is that when you are married with a family you are constantly sharing your spouse. You share them with their career, with the kids, with their hobbies, you end up sharing them with everything that makes them happy and gives them pleasure. So this really all boils down to sex, intimacy, trust, and communication. I am not trying to say that you are wrong, I am just talking through my thoughts and feelings. This is an on-going evolution that I am going through, maybe it is something that I end up disagreeing with, or maybe not. I just havent gotten to that point yet.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Thanks
Matt
October 7, 2017 at 9:32 am #172069AnonymousGuestDear Matt:
You are welcome.
I too feel uncomfortable with intense emotions either way, if they “swing too far one way or the other.” If you interpret, (as I have done in the past), that you are a bad person for feeling this or that feeling, then that very judgment adds distress to the feeling, making it… swing further away. What we feel is not in our choosing. We cannot be guilty of what we do not choose. What we do, our actions are subject to our choosing, not our emotions.
Removing the judgment will reduce distress.
Regarding the second part of your recent post addressed to me and regarding you taking responsibility over your wife’s mental well-being, something I noticed very early on in your thread and have mentioned it early on:
Your wife’s brained was formed before you met her. Way before you met her. I like the term “Formative Years” to indicate one’s childhood because many thousands of neuropathways are Formed during those years, at an incredible speed. Many of these pathways, when involving emotions, are very difficult to undo in adulthood.
The neuropathways responsible for your wife’s dysfunction were formed before you met her.
This means they are not your doing, not your fault. It also means that no matter how hard she tries, it would be very difficult for her to undo those neuropathways. It will require a lot of work on her part, probably with the help of a quality psychotherapist, over a long period of time, to slowly… patiently, persistently weaken those pathways. There is absolutely no way for you to insert yourself into her brain and with a miniature tool box undo and redo those pathways.
The reason your positive input to her “just falls on deaf ears” is because her neuropathways reject your input, and will continue to do so.
If you agree with my point here, then slowly… you might insert this understanding into your neuropathways that have been leading you to attempt to do the impossible.
anita
October 7, 2017 at 8:48 pm #172121AnonymousInactiveHi, Matt,
I thought I might need to express my word of caution to you – a caution to make sure you are NOT trying to convince yourself that what you are doing is the right thing. I did that far too often in the past – being afraid of something and desperately wanting something, my logical mind would subserviently come up with a myriad of ideas why I should be doing this and not that. At the same time, deep down, in my gut, I knew it was not the right thing to do. The more I looked at a problem from different angles, the more I would become lost as to which angle was the right one and what perspective to follow.
I am 100% convinced that if one wants to prove something, to justify something, one’s mind will stop at nothing and all the reasons for will seem fully valid and worthy.
Just something to consider among other things.
X
October 9, 2017 at 5:52 pm #172519MattParticipantThis means they are not your doing, not your fault. It also means that no matter how hard she tries, it would be very difficult for her to undo those neuropathways. It will require a lot of work on her part, probably with the help of a quality psychotherapist, over a long period of time, to slowly⌠patiently, persistently weaken those pathways. There is absolutely no way for you to insert yourself into her brain and with a miniature tool box undo and redo those pathways.
The reason your positive input to her âjust falls on deaf earsâ is because her neuropathways reject your input, and will continue to do so.
If you agree with my point here, then slowly⌠you might insert this understanding into your neuropathways that have been leading you to attempt to do the impossible.
Anita,
Thank-you for the insight, and what you say hits the mark. One of the things that my wife does, that I work hard to sympathize with, is she gets stuck on the past. It gets me in trouble because I have a hard time continuing to sympathize with her, when she gets stuck on the people that have wronged her in the past. Whether it is her Father, her brothers, sons father, exes, her mother…. I listen and let her talk, but it gets to the point were she makes herself so upset that I end up getting upset. I know I just need to disengage, but then I get stuck. I try to impress on her that we are right now, this minute, our family. And then I feel hypocritical because while she is stuck in the past, I get stuck worrying about the future.
The thing that I need to do is focus on having living right now and let whatever happen, happen. Work on those feelings that I can’t live up to what she wants, even thought I know, and she tells me that I am the person she wants to grow old with. That I am the person who will stick by her side through the good times and the bad times. I don’t give enough credit to the hard times that our marriage has survived, and the love that we share.
I think that if I become proactive in living right now that eventually my pathways will become able to deal with things as they come up. Instead of constantly being under stress about things that I can’t control.
I think that typing these things out loud helps to reinforce those positive thoughts and pathways. I need to let go of trying to control our relationship, and trust that everything will work itself out. And this is why love hurts right? Because in order to fully love someone you have to understand that there is risk that it may be gone tomorrow, and that trying to control that may end up smothering those flames. This is what I have been doing and it has damaged my relationship.
Matt
October 9, 2017 at 6:09 pm #172521MattParticipantHi, Matt,
I thought I might need to express my word of caution to you â a caution to make sure you are NOT trying to convince yourself that what you are doing is the right thing. I did that far too often in the past â being afraid of something and desperately wanting something, my logical mind would subserviently come up with a myriad of ideas why I should be doing this and not that. At the same time, deep down, in my gut, I knew it was not the right thing to do. The more I looked at a problem from different angles, the more I would become lost as to which angle was the right one and what perspective to follow.
I am 100% convinced that if one wants to prove something, to justify something, oneâs mind will stop at nothing and all the reasons for will seem fully valid and worthy.
Just something to consider among other things.
X
X,
Thank-you for the response, and there are valid points there. Deep down in my gut I want my wife, I want to grow old with her and be the person she needs. You are right that when you look at the various angles of the problems and solutions it can be overwhelming. I have been there and done that a lot, to the point where I did almost lose my wife and family.
I will ask you if you believe that relationships and marriages evolve over time? The thing that I am currently struggling with is what the picture of my marriage should look like. I fight with this one because the picture I look at is split down the middle. One side is the happy times I spend with my wife that is the picture of a great marriage. Laughing/Joking with each other/affectionate/loving/spending time with the family/ sparkle in her eyes/deep conversation/silence/longing/memories/cooking with each other/touching/ all of those things that make me grin from ear to ear and when I look at her I think how did I get so lucky
The other side is my insecurities that cloud the future, I get stuck trying to get rid of that side of the picture. I know that even through all of the hard times that my wife and I have had, we share a very special bond and that I need to spend more time praising that bond, and less time worrying about whether that bond can be broken. I know that even though these responses may be cluttered and all over the place, they really help me define my thoughts and find ways to make myself a better person. I realize that marriage is hard, and that sometimes I make it way harder than it needs to be because I unfortunately try to control the future.
It hit me last night driving home from work, I work 3rd shift, so I drive country roads at night. I hate deer on the side of the road, and because of the weather the deer have really been thick lately. Lat night the were everywhere and I was just hawking the sides of the roads seeing all of the glowing eyes. Well, I drove past a group of them on the right side, and when I focused my attention ahead of me, there was a deer standing in the middle of the left lane as I drove past it going 60 mph. I didnt see that deer until it was at my drivers door, split second, a few feet to the right and he would have been sitting in my lap.I got home and kissed my wife and daughter on the forehead and realized that it doesn’t take much for it all to go away. Writing out my insecurities helps to overcome them and makes me realize how foolish I am
Have a great evening and thanks for the response
Matt
October 9, 2017 at 8:58 pm #172525AnonymousInactiveMatt,
Thank YOU in turn for your response and for your posts in general.
You know, because of this tendency of mine to analyse a situation from all the possible standpoints (only sometimes to find out later that the one that was real was the one I didnât consider at all), I have read a great deal about male vs female psyches and ways to think and behave. Well, you and a few other males here, on Tiny Buddha, over time, proved to me time and time again that we are not fundamentally different and that thoughts that I thought as a woman might have very well be thought by a man.
You asked me if I believe that relationships and marriages evolve over time. Yes, I do â it is pretty obvious, isnât it? To tell you the truth, I was brazen or naĂŻve (or both at the same time) enough in the past to think that I should just wait for the right man to show up â and then, if I do fall in love with him and if he does fall in love with me, well, this would mean that we were made for each other and that from that moment on, our lives will follow the same path, like some interweaving lines, forever. There was so much comfort in that âforever.â But reality proved different. I have no qualms whatsoever about my part â I did all I possibly could, but if the other party is not cooperating and wants out (or doesnât want in) â well, what can I do if I literally did everything in my power without denigrating myself in my own eyes?… I believe I have a good internal control â something telling me to stop trying to win the person over when my contribution or my investment has become far too big compared to the other partyâs. From then on, I may be silently pining after him, but that stops with time. Sometimes with a lot of time.
So back to that question. Even if the two didnât change, one (or both) could become bored. If not â well, maybe that is that rare case of pairs celebrating their gold or emerald etc. marriages. Most often, though, throughout the course of oneâs life, a person changes. If the other stays the same, then the question is how that first personâs change is compatible (and that goes both ways) with the other person? Both partners may change, then again, the question is how compatible they become now with each otherâs changed self? Sometimes still compatible, sometimes not. Then their paths would diverge. I visualise that as two lines that have been interwoven, but now either run parallel to each other or one (or both of them) goes into a different direction. Sometimes people meet again and rekindle their romance; that would be shown as an intersection and the interweaving begun anew. That is how I now see it in my mindâs eye, a relationship between two people, and not just lovers, but also friends, good acquaintances, etc.
I reread your post several times, and I wonder why you put your insecurities as âthe other sideâ to all the good things that you can say about your relationship? It doesnât seem logical to me. Besides (and I know that it might be very, very hard), it might be worth to make an effort and recall all that you donât or didnât quite like about your wife. It may be very little things, but I am sure there are some. It would be a good contribution to the objective view of your situation.
Yes, I am also far too aware of my need and want and desire to control the future, so can totally relate. The Tiny Buddha website has a section with great quotes, this is the one that attracted my attention yesterday, âWhat will mess up you most in life is the picture in your head of how it is supposed to be.â How very, very true.
And yes, life can change in a blink of an eye. I can be somewhat melancholic and used to be unable to shake that feeling that everything, just everything is going to be the same, no change, day in and day out, but life does change, and sometimes that change occurs very fast. Here is another one to counteract those feelings of yours (or rather, the reason for your bringing that up), âNever chase love, affection, or attention. If it isnât given freely by another person, it isnât worth having.â
In summary, I am afraid it is too early for you to decide anything at all. You are in the very midst of the action â everything in your wifeâs life and in yours is still boiling, nothing has settled down. I would say do try to live each day as it comes, enjoying it as much as you can here and now, without trying to look too far into the future, to read âsignsâ or to dwell on where you will be a year or ten from now. All of your musings and thoughts, even if your list of âplusesâ and âminusesâ (I love lists!) ends up with one column being about equal to the other, so you donât know what to do (or you do, but your wants outweigh the logical conclusion) – all that will eventually lead to you knowing what is right for you. The problem is that no one can tell when this will happen.
Have a fantastic, completely worry free day!
X
October 9, 2017 at 10:04 pm #172531MattParticipantI reread your post several times, and I wonder why you put your insecurities as âthe other sideâ to all the good things that you can say about your relationship? It doesnât seem logical to me. Besides (and I know that it might be very, very hard), it might be worth to make an effort and recall all that you donât or didnât quite like about your wife. It may be very little things, but I am sure there are some. It would be a good contribution to the objective view of your situation.
X,
It is a great comfort reading other people’s thoughts. You know it is one of the hardest things in dealing with aall oof this, I realized that I have grown old and away from all of my really close friends and I feel like I don’t have a friend to grab a beer with a let all of these thoughts out. I am very glad that I have found this board, It has been tremendously healthy.
So, there is a list of things that I don’t like about my wife and most of them have to do with her selfishness when it comes to the abuse of prescription medicines. But formally I have not made a list of those little things, but you have me thinking now would be a great time to do it. Several weeks ago I made a list of the 100 reasons why I love her, and it helped remind me of all of those silly reasons why I want to wake up everyday and see her smiling face.
That is an interesting point about putting my insecurities on the other side of all the good things I do.
Where do insecurities belong? Do you think that a person need address insecurities to grow to their full potential? I imagine some insecurity is healthy or else you would be a raging sociopath.
I guess I need to further define the question of evolving marriage/relationship. My wife and I dated when we were 18, and in college, then we had about a 15 year break before we got back together. At fist it was her, her son, and me and the three of us were a great team. It was amazing, a couple years after that our daughter came along and it was a perfect fit. We were the All American family, that lasted for about 6 months until we introduced my Mother and brother In law. We were bringing her family up to live closer to us. They would live with us until my Father in Law was able to find a job and move up to us. Well the plan didn’t work out as we had thought and my in Laws ended up living with us for an extended period of time until my Father in Law was diagnosed with Cancer and ended up passing. Now Her mother still lives with us and we are looking for another solution. I only say this to try to put into perspective my question on evolving. We started as husband/wife and father/mother in that order, things started shifting as more people moved into our family, and the time needed to keep husband/wife as the first priority was non-existent. It became the third or fourth priority, more out of survival necessity than anything else. Now because of “Jay” it has woken me up to realize that I need to shift priorities to make husband/wife the top spot.
âNever chase love, affection, or attention. If it isnât given freely by another person, it isnât worth having.â
I realize that I have been doing this ever since my family expanded, I have been pressing too hard to find that attention and affection. Throw in the fact that because all of the pill abuse my wifes hormones are all out of whack. The more I talk about this the more I realize what a mess my family has been in, it is amazing that any of us have survived.
I agree that it is too early to decide and that the way I handle the day to day emotions/feelings that I have is going to be crucial to whether my marriage survives or not.
Thank-you so much for the words, and have a great day.
Matt
October 10, 2017 at 6:41 am #172569AnonymousGuestDear Matt:
In your last post addressed to me you wrote about your wife: “she gets stuck on the past…Â she gets stuck on the people that have wronged her in the past. .. her father…her mother”.
In your most recent post, you wrote: “We were the All American family… until we introduced my Mother and brother In law. We were bringing her family up to live closer to us… my in Laws ended up living with us for an extended period of time… Her mother still lives with us.”
Matt, no wonder she gets stuck on the past, on the people who wronged her: they moved close to her and with her. She is currently stuck with the people who wronged her.
Those neuropathways I mentioned, those responsible for her misery and dysfunction, it is impossible to heal from them when we live with the people responsible for creating them, people who encourage those pathways still, in the present time.
Any healing that was done before her mother and father moved in, any healing and recovery that made that glitter in her eyes possible, that healing was reversed and undone when her parents moved closer and into your home.
As long as her mother is living with her, and for as long as she is closely involved with her parents’ lives, it is not that your wife is stuck in the past. She is presently stuck.
You can pursue the open marriage idea but my goodness, Matt, an open marriage will not do. Your hope for a better marriage is, I strongly believe, in distancing and protecting your wife from further damaging input by her parents!
anita
October 10, 2017 at 5:32 pm #172661AnonymousInactiveMatt,
Just like you, I really appreciate this site. It has been a year and a half since I discovered it, I think I got the answers I needed at the time, but I am still returning back to it almost every day even now.
I tried to reread all of your posts to get a big picture (from your perspective) of your current situation overall.
You called your wife âthe love of my lifeâ and then proceeded to writing that you were attracted to her again. That gap in closeness and affection was caused by your work load, the fact that the in-laws were living with you, and by the depression that your wife was suffering from? Or did I miss something?
âFor 6 years I have fought the wrong fight. I thought it was my responsibility to help her with the disease of drug dependence and depression. Over the course of the last 6 months I finally came to grips with the fact that my actions have actually been destroying our marriage. I was trying too hard to fix her, instead of making peace with myself and working towards living my life as a better personâ â this also caught my attention.
Could you elaborate a bit more how exactly your trying to fix her instead of working on yourself to become a better person were destroying your marriage?
I may be trying to dig too deeply, nitpicking here and there and seeing conflicting statements whereas they (conflicting ideas expressed by you) may only be reflecting your internal conflict and the ongoing process of trying to figure things out, please forgive me.
In that italicized paragraph above, it sounds as if from now on you want to make peace with yourself and work on your life.
This is sort of confirmed in your                question, âWhere do insecurities belong? Do you think that a person need address insecurities to grow to their full potential? I imagine some insecurity is healthy or else you would be a raging sociopathâ â reflecting your desire to reach your full potential (that is, work on yourself).
On the other hand, you state firmly that you would at least try and comply with all the wishes made by your wife (open marriage) in an attempt to save your union.
In your âsituation updateâ post from Oct. 3, you mentioned all the possible developments that could rise of Jay being in your wifeâs life. I didnât see the one where she is so happy to have two men by her side, that she decides to keep them both indefinitely.
I was a mistress to a married man for six years. I went through all those thoughts that you had about right and wrong, what exactly is it that is so uncomfortable in the three-people scenario, etc. And even though I was so very much in love with him, even though I am very stubborn and perseverant in general, I donât think I would have been able to go through it if I hadnât known (had ways to do my research) that he was intimate only with me indeed. Even given that, the fact that they had to appear together at social functions would make me very, very jealous. So if it hadnât been for that sort of exclusivity (his sincere love for me, to the extent he was capable of loving), I would have given up straight away.
So I would say give it a try, but I am pretty sure that something will happen and you will realise that you are simply not up to it, however much you might be in love with your wife OR your brain will eventually process everything and you will wake up one morning aware that this is not for you.
I would agree with you that some insecurity is healthy. In fact, I donât see any conflict here. First, I donât think there is such a thing as âfull potentialâ, hence one canât âgrow to it.â It is like happiness, a never-attainable goal that we all are entitled to pursue. Second, I fully support that happy medium concept and everything in moderation, no extremes thing.
It is really comforting to know that there are still caring men out there, who are willing to and capable of registering their impulses, their thoughts, analysing their actions and trying to understand the reasons behind it all.
Have a great evening!
X
P.S. I am not so sure that the survival of your marriage depends on how YOU handle the day-to-day emotions and feelings. For one thing, “It takes two to tango”; for another, if there are three of you in your marriage, isn’t it “a bit crowded”?; and for still another, even if there are only two of you, what kind of marriage (I mean marriage of what quality, satisfaction for all parties involved, etc.) can you really call a marriage?
October 10, 2017 at 5:39 pm #172663MattParticipantAnita
I totally agree and have been setting expectations about how we will be getting away from my Mother in Law. There is definitely a strong co-dependence between my wife and her mother, and it is a very toxic relationships at times. My Mother in Law lost her husband, is currently on disability, and generally is a toxic relationship for my wife. I have seen it a number of times, where my wife looks to be turning the corner and figuring things out, our relationship starts getting better, and then out of nowhere my Mother in Law will bring up something about my wife’s brothers that totally de-rail everything. I know that it will be difficult to separate the two of them, but my wife and I both know that it what is needed.
Matt
October 10, 2017 at 6:48 pm #172671MattParticipantX,
 if there are three of you in your marriage, isnât it âa bit crowdedâ?; and for still another, even if there are only two of you, what kind of marriage (I mean marriage of what quality, satisfaction for all parties involved, etc.) can you really call a marriage?
Haha, this made me laugh because for a handful of years now, I felt like my marriage has been way more that just the two of us. Whether it is my Mother in Law, or Jay. The one thing that all of these responses have shown to me has been that dysfunctional defines my marriage and it is truly amazing that my wife and I can still talk to each other.
I do believe that I have many conflicting ideas inside my brain. For a long time I suppressed so much, and checked out. There was too much input in my life and I did not have take the time to decompress, so I pushed everything down and carried on. 60+ hr work week, travel, newborn, new step son, In-laws living with us, and a wife that fought severe depression and pill addiction. Looking back on it I should have been more assertive, I should have taken more time for myself, I should have put more value on my feelings. But I was on robot mode, and got to a point where I wasn’t giving anyone anything they might have needed from me, including myself. But you are right, I no longer want to live that way. Moving forward I want to be at peace with myself.
Could you elaborate a bit more how exactly your trying to fix her instead of working on yourself to become a better person were destroying your marriage?
I placed the blame on all of our problems squarely on her shoulders, It was the ambien, it was the not being able to get out of bed, it was always having to cancel outings because of her anxiety, I thought it was her fault that my in-laws were still living with us. I was rather shitty with her for some time, at the time I couldn’t see it. I could have handled so many things differently that would have been more supportive of her, trying to understand the position that she was in. We were newly married, and when things got complicated I threw in the towel.
In your âsituation updateâ post from Oct. 3, you mentioned all the possible developments that could rise of Jay being in your wifeâs life. I didnât see the one where she is so happy to have two men by her side, that she decides to keep them both indefinitely.
I don’t know if she wants an open marriage or just wants to explore, we have talked about it and she is still on the fence. I still think that the attention and adoration that Jay gives her, makes her feel alive so to say. She has said that to me. Where that goes, I am not sure. Too early to tell. I don’t know if it would make her happy or if it would confuse her to the point where the depression kicks in harder. We have talked about all of the possibilities. I told her I think part of it is that she is bored, and this is just an escape. I do think there is more to it, but I don’t know how that will manifest.
So my question kinda boils down to the concepts of sex and love. Can sex and love be separated? If during one of my extended work trips, I got drunk and had sex with a woman I met at a bar. In terms of my wife and my marriage, what is the most damaging aspect of that situation. Is it the sex ( lets assume that is was the safest sex possible), is it the other woman who I would probably never meet again, or is it the trust that was broken? My thought is that it woould be the damage to the trust.
Now lets take this one more step, what if it was a place I traveled to frequently, and I slept with this same woman once a month. So now does love creep into the picture and influence anything? What if it is just physical attraction, does it naturally evolve into something else?
When you were a mistress, did he love you more than his wife? Did the hole that you filled interfere with the love and support that he had and gave to his wife? Physical needs are interesting, I can go get a normal massage once a week by a member of the opposite sex with no issues. Now that masseuse would make me feel amazing, high on life sometimes, but there are no issues with that. Now if I fell in love with my masseuse that may start to cause problems. So now the problem seems to be Love, I am talking in circle now and I can’t quite finish formulating this thought. I will have to come back to it because there is something there.
I don’t know if my wife will decide to have an affair, and actually go through meeting with Jay, she may well decide not to. I know that I will try to treat her in a way that she no longer feels like that should be an option, and that is about all I can do, Right?
I feel like there is so much, and it is nice to be able to throw up all of this information onto the page whether it makes sense or not, it really helps de-clutter my brain and formulate better thoughts, and for that I thank you for reading and responding.
Matt
October 10, 2017 at 8:23 pm #172679AnonymousInactiveMatt,
So my question kinda boils down to the concepts of sex and love. Can sex and love be separated? If during one of my extended work trips, I got drunk and had sex with a woman I met at a bar. In terms of my wife and my marriage, what is the most damaging aspect of that situation. Is it the sex ( lets assume that is was the safest sex possible), is it the other woman who I would probably never meet again, or is it the trust that was broken? My thought is that it woould be the damage to the trust.
Now this is the one that makes me laugh. You see, I heard it so often that for women, sex and love is the same thing whereas for men, they can be easily separated. Now, I do believe that there are men for whom it is the same thing (I am very much against any generalising), but in general, it can be just like you say â one-night stand, never to see each other is not a big deal for a man.
Next, it depends on whom you ask. Say, my mother once told me that if a similar thing took place with my father (not that there was any suspicion about my fatherâs wrong-doing â we were just having some rare female chat that I hardly ever do with my mother or with anybody), she would prefer not to know about it.
If you ask me, for me, I would prefer to know about it. Because if the man swore to be mine and only mine, but then went ahead and had that encounter, it means that he is not to be trusted. And I need to be able to trust my partner 100%.
Now lets take this one more step, what if it was a place I traveled to frequently, and I slept with this same woman once a month. So now does love creep into the picture and influence anything? What if it is just physical attraction, does it naturally evolve into something else?
I donât know. I have too little experience. But from what I read in books, both fiction and psychological books and on real-life forums, with real people involved, physical attraction may very well evolve into something else. Again, it depends on the man and on the woman.
When you were a mistress, did he love you more than his wife? Did the hole that you filled interfere with the love and support that he had and gave to his wife? Physical needs are interesting, I can go get a normal massage once a week by a member of the opposite sex with no issues. Now that masseuse would make me feel amazing, high on life sometimes, but there are no issues with that. Now if I fell in love with my masseuse that may start to cause problems. So now the problem seems to be Love, I am talking in circle now and I canât quite finish formulating this thought. I will have to come back to it because there is something there.
Oh well, my ex was a totally separate story. My very strong suspicion now, that I have read so much literature on the subject and seen similar accounts on Tiny Buddha (similar in how women to whom I could relate would describe what they were feeling and how the man would behave), is that he was a narcissist. So ârulesâ and “guidelines” and logical deductions applicable, say, to you or men like you, whose posts I have read on this site, would not be applicable to him.
I donât believe my ex ever loved, like really loved, anybody in his life. I witnessed how he treated his wife when our affair started (meaning how he was postponing telling her, then did tell her, she was first okay with there marriage being on paper only, then changed her mind completely and started making scenes, and he was not too intent on pushing for divorce because of his career and of his wife’s previous attempt to commit a suicide because of her ex) and how he treated her when the affair was on-going (not calling her at all when we went on vacations, doing only what was necessary to keep their family house in operating condition (they had no children), i.e. not putting his soul in that other life of his, only going through the motions) was exactly how he treated me when he (oh, yes) fell in love again, some six years later (yes, while still married to that wife #3 of his; now he is married for the 4th time, because during those six years, his career situation changed and if he had still been just as much in love with me in year five or six as he was during year one or two, he would have divorced).
What is just as ironical and what made me finally diagnose him as âincurableâ and not worth even considering a reunion in any distant future at all was that he would court his new love (and I was witnessing it all from a distance) IN THE VERY SAME MANNER that he had courted me. He would even call her the same tender names he had used for me, his choice of presents would be the same, etc.
In short, it looked as if he had some ideal of his female companion, he would find a woman that would fit that ideal, toy with the idea for as long as he was infatuated (there was a tinge of doing certain romantic things as if he was trying to prove to himself that he was indeed that deeply in love, that he was living the romantic love that books and films show us, if you see what I mean), then, just because his sort of love has a âshelf life,â so to speak, his passion would gradually diminish. But, since he is a narcissist, chooses women accordingly (oh my God, I was SO in love with him â yes, love dependency at its best!), says a couple of words or keeps silent so that you think that this is a perfect display of a true male character (not saying much, keeping everything to oneself, but processing everything deep, deep inside) and start blaming yourself (he is stoically silent, and you are the one making a scene â shame on you!), he doesnât in fact notice that his love has shrunk. And, since is so certain of himself and (however strange it may sound) since he believes that now â now, finally, he did find the love of his life (and all the other, similar âlovesâ were not âloves,â otherwise why would he then fall in love all over again???), so no need to do anything at all, âcause “love will save the day.”
And then he does fall in love anew, the circle starts anew, the woman falls for him (he is charming, he is witty, he is a renowned person in his circle, etc.) â and he suddenly discovers that his old flame is gone (so that must not have been LOVE, just an error, a passing mistake), but why would it matter since NOW he has definitely found his true love (for the nth time in his life).
At the same time, he does have his own âpeculiarities,â so to speak. For instance, when he feels whatever he feels when he does all that courting, when he is on the âcuspâ of his infatuation, he is physically incapable of making love to another person.
Also, he is incapable of falling in love again with the same person. Once he is done with loving you, he is done for good, he crosses you out of his life, no matter how useful you might be for him, even though he might know that you love him and would do anything for him.
We are all so complicatedâŚ
To sum it up, I donât believe now that whatever problem he has in him (because he surely has some, going from one woman to another in that fiery, feisty manner), he doesnât believe he has one or treats it as a âholeâ to be filled in. Nor does he allow anybody too deep into his soul. You might be thinking that you are let in, only to discover later that there were so many other things that he could have told you, but didnât. Actually, it may be the very need to constantly be on the high because of a new infatuation that fills his hole, not any particular given woman per se.
And I donât think he gave much support and love to his wife. She (and I) had the illusion that we were getting love and support from him, but in fact there was none.
You see, it took me quite some time to figure it all out. Funny thing life â now I am SO grateful that he didnât divorce his wife back when I was still in the picture. For I know that I would have followed him to our home country (yes, it was also long-distance), gave up my excellent life in this country only to find myself divorced and without great prospects several years later.
I donât know if my wife will decide to have an affair, and actually go through meeting with Jay, she may well decide not to. I know that I will try to treat her in a way that she no longer feels like that should be an option, and that is about all I can do, Right?
Yes, exactly. You do what you believe is right and within the boundaries of your own healthy self-esteem (my story also made me re-evaluate that one â what it was I was seeking to get from him (or from other men whom I really liked â and I donât like that many men at all) that I couldnât give myself) and then leave the rest to life.
I feel like there is so much, and it is nice to be able to throw up all of this information onto the page whether it makes sense or not, it really helps de-clutter my brain and formulate better thoughts, and for that I thank you for reading and responding.
Same here. Looking forward to your thoughts as well!
X
October 10, 2017 at 9:47 pm #172685MattParticipantX,
Yeah he sounds like a study in narcissism, and I am certain there is a hole there that needed to be addressed and filled but he chose to take the easy way out, when those feelings welled up, throw it out and start again. I think we can all agree that feelings and emotions can suck and hurt to a depth that is honestly beyond belief. They can also provide euphoria that is beyond belief. I still vividly remember the emotions that my wife and I shared the first couple of minutes after they brought our daughter to us from the nursery. Tears, smiles, laughter, fear…take them all roll them up and smack me in the face. I can see how someone could become addicted to those feelings that come about in the beginning of any relationship
If you ask me, for me, I would prefer to know about it. Because if the man swore to be mine and only mine, but then went ahead and had that encounter, it means that he is not to be trusted. And I need to be able to trust my partner 100%.
I feel the same way, I think that the trust aspect is where the hurt comes from. Now can broken trust ever be fully reconciled in a relationship, or do people just lie to themselves for the sake of love. The reason I ask this, and here is where I am having a hard time putting my thoughts into words.
So why is sex with another person the deal breaker in a marriage? ( I am not sure that is the correct way to put it) I don’t know, I have never cheated on my wife, but I have met women who I was physically attracted to. On the same note I have also watched porn, and there have been times when I fantasized about having sex with women who weren’t my wife. Should these be deal breakers? Maybe… But afterward I still loved my wife the same way. On the negative side; because I didn’t disclose to her that I had these fantasies, Is this cheating on our marriage? IS it in fact the definition of marriage is the active ability to withhold desire for the sake of your spouse? I am not trying to talk myself into an open marriage, but I am trying to find why suppressing feelings could be positive for a marriage. I know plenty of people who keep some fairly intense things from their wives and husbands, and from the outside they have great marriages. Is that a better way to live life then to be honest about the feelings of desiring other people and acting upon it if everyone is on the same page. Does that make sense?
So what did he provide you during your relationship? Do you think looking back that if you found out he was still being intimate with your wife you would have broke everything off, or just found a way to deal because of what he provided you?And do you think that if you find a person that provides you the everything that you need right now, they would be worth doing anything for?
These are interesting ideas that I am not sure there are answers for because like you said we are so complicated. Oh one other question, how close do you think you could get to a person of the opposite sex (while being in an intimate relationship)without it being physical, ie. sex?
Have a Great night,
Matt
October 11, 2017 at 7:26 pm #172789AnonymousInactiveMatt,
Wow, this is becoming a really captivating soul-searching dialogue! Thank you again and again for participating and providing a male perspective (even though you are one sole representative of the male population in it)!
Yeah he sounds like a study in narcissism, and I am certain there is a hole there that needed to be addressed and filled but he chose to take the easy way out, when those feelings welled up, throw it out and start again.
Yes, there is definitely that feeling that every time he falls in love, he sort of turns over a new leaf with the intention of starting fresh and anew. BUT he never addresses the issues that lead him to the necessity of turning over that new leaf, so he chooses the same type of women, behaves the same way, so we can place bets on how soon he and his wife #4 are done with each other. I could talk more and more about him, but I would be repeating things that I had already analysed and processed, and I donât really want to go back to all the small observations of mine, the feelings I had at the time, the train of my thoughts, etc. It is like a book for me now, an entertaining novel that I enjoyed reading, but that I donât want to leaf through again. Besides, it has been two years now since he married her, and my feelings about the findings I made back then havenât changed, so I take it that I did eventually figure him and myself (that is, why I did what I did) all out.
I think we can all agree that feelings and emotions can suck and hurt to a depth that is honestly beyond belief. They can also provide euphoria that is beyond belief. I still vividly remember the emotions that my wife and I shared the first couple of minutes after they brought our daughter to us from the nursery. Tears, smiles, laughter, fearâŚtake them all roll them up and smack me in the face. I can see how someone could become addicted to those feelings that come about in the beginning of any relationship.
Yup, even after two years, I still believe that that phrase of mine, of him being high on the infatuation of a new love and going from infatuation to infatuation in search of that high is right.
If you ask me, for me, I would prefer to know about it. Because if the man swore to be mine and only mine, but then went ahead and had that encounter, it means that he is not to be trusted. And I need to be able to trust my partner 100%.
I feel the same way, I think that the trust aspect is where the hurt comes from.
Well, here I believe I need to point one tiny detail out. I didnât write âswore to love meâ (unless you mean the physical aspect of it, not feelings). I have thought long and hard about it, tried to look deep into my heart remembering my crushes, and came to the conclusion that was later confirmed by reading anitaâs answers on Tiny Buddha, that one canât really, in all honesty, swear to LOVE somebody. Feelings come and go. Good example â I have certainly met a number of decent men who would make excellent husbands (or you (probably) women or anybody else, etc.), who are trustworthy, who will always be there for you. But can I fall in love with somebody just because they are good? Unfortunately, no. Somebody marrying somebody just because they are good, just because they didnât want to upset their parents, etc. is the underlying reason for so many troubles and sufferings not only in fiction and films, but also in reality. I later read a whole chapter on it as something not to be done in one psychological book.
But other than that â yes, it is trust. You trust your partner as your alter ego, otherwise why would you let him or her in so close as your partner, right?
Now can broken trust ever be fully reconciled in a relationship, or do people just lie to themselves for the sake of love.
Well, I am sure there are exceptions, but they must be very few and far between no matter what a number of websites tell you (stories like âOur bond has only become stronger after we reconciled after his cheating â what nonsense!) I think it is one of those where, as they say, the exceptions only prove the general rule of thumb. Sometimes though, it may seem for the first couple of months that one person has forgiven and the other one has acknowledged his or her wrongdoing, so they go on as if nothing has happened. But something has happened, and I am sure it will pop up sooner or later.
Matt, if you have nothing better to do, you can look up my original post from May this year entitled âNeed Help Understanding Whyâ (you can look by clicking on my profile). I am talking there about that guy who helped me to shift focus from my ex to himself (unknowingly to himself acting as a good psychotherapist), but since he was no psychotherapist, he failed to reduce my interest in him to zero, so I ended up spending over a year thinking that something was possible between us. I still think something might be, but now it is more of âNever say neverâ and not having him on my mind all the time as I used to. Actually, I think I am back to my former self before I had that crazy crush on my #1 as I call him exactly ten years ago.
So that guy and his wife were high-school sweethearts, married some ten years later, welcomed their first child after several years of marriage, then a girl came along. He gradually goes up his career ladder, she is there by his side. Perfect Christians, I should add. Then he meets that another woman and goes crazy. I have no idea why he didnât divorce his wife (to whom he had been faithful for â erghm â about 25 years by then), maybe because of the kids.
I donât know what went wrong between him and his new love, but he was back to his wife, trying to repair the damage he did. He wasnât trying too hard, because his heart was no longer there, and there is nothing he could do. One canât force oneself if one simply canât. He put his ring on three or four times after that affair. Took it off one more time. That is him.
Well, as for her, I can very well imagine myself in her place. The way her life was turning out was the way I, as a little girl, sort of imagined for myself. And then this happens. Just out of the blue.
You know, as they say, men donât always cheat because the other woman is more beautiful, more stylish, smarter, etc. than their wife. Sometimes they cheat simply because she is different. Like my ex â he has a whole collection of a brunette woman four years older than he (his wife #3), a brown-haired me 21 year younger than he, a redhead eight years younger than he (his current wife), etc. â I sometimes wonder if all that started when his wife #1 whom he married right upon his graduation and who gave birth to a child that was not his was the primary reason for all of thisâŚ
Anyway, that guyâs wife, as a Christian, tries to forget and live as if nothing has happened. But the trust is broken. She canât divorce (presumably, because she is Christian (maybe because of the kidsâ age â that âuntil collegeâ thing)), she canât trust him as she used to. She becomes easily upset, cranky, suspicious, demanding only damaging the relationship further.
So if you ask me, I would say that no matter how hard one wants to forgive and forget, I donât think this is really possible (unless that piece of memory somehow gets erased). So I have always thought that if a cheating situation occurs, cut all ties. Just like they say with assault and battering â if your partner did it once, no matter what he is saying, no matter how profusely he apologises, what gifts he is giving, get out. Period.
So why is sex with another person the deal breaker in a marriage? ( I am not sure that is the correct way to put it) I donât know, I have never cheated on my wife, but I have met women who I was physically attracted to. On the same note I have also watched porn, and there have been times when I fantasized about having sex with women who werenât my wife. Should these be deal breakers? Maybe⌠But afterward I still loved my wife the same way. On the negative side; because I didnât disclose to her that I had these fantasies, Is this cheating on our marriage? IS it in fact the definition of marriage is the active ability to withhold desire for the sake of your spouse? I am not trying to talk myself into an open marriage, but I am trying to find why suppressing feelings could be positive for a marriage. I know plenty of people who keep some fairly intense things from their wives and husbands, and from the outside they have great marriages. Is that a better way to live life then to be honest about the feelings of desiring other people and acting upon it if everyone is on the same page. Does that make sense?
Hm-m-m, I donât know. Oh, wait, maybe I do. It may be the same way as with cheating or lying. I once read a good piece of advice on what can be considered cheating and what canât. It went something like this, if you donât feel comfortable about talking about this to your partner, it is cheating (even if no physical act took place), if not â then it is not.
It is all very complicated, I donât really know where to start. Maybe it all comes down to the compromise you strike with your partner in this area like in many others. Say, s/he doesnât approve of you gambling, but you still do (even though you agreed not to) â that would be a breach of trust. The same with having sex with another person. Unless your partner approves of it. In your situation, at least where things stand right now, your wife doesnât mind trying, you donât like the idea, but are trying logically to talk yourself into it. Sounds a bit like my passage above about marrying the person simply because s/he is good.
I have recently come up with a classification of men as regards my feelings for them. There are some for whom I feel complete aversion â just like there exists love at first sight, which I havenât experienced, there exists hate at first sight, which I have. The worst thing here is that they did nothing wrong at all (yet), but I already canât stand them. Physically.
There are some whom I donât find pleasant to be around. Again on that basic chemical level. A guy like that tried to date me several months ago. I did what I could, gave him a try, but it turned out that I had been right â no matter how much time I give to a man, if he doesnât interest me when we first talk, he never will.
There are some to whom I am completely neutral. Those would be (or are) good male friends. No sexual feelings added, none whatsoever. Proof (at least in my eyes) that friendship between men and women, no matter what they say, is possible.
Next group consists of two subgroups. One is represented by men with whom I would look great in a family photo (I talked to one male acquaintance of mine, funny enough that was also his criterion for finding a woman attractive), but who donât really interest me on the physical level and whom I donât really interest. The other one is with whom we might flirt a little bit and with whom, if only they were free and took the matters in their hands, something would definitely happen between us. But I donât lose sleep because of them (or may be daydreaming for a couple of hours, that is all).
A separate group is men for whom I feel that basic animal pull, but my mind somehow finds it extremely easy to extinguish that pull. I know they are not right for me from the start and have no problem thinking about something else.
The top one would the one with whom I am in love. Emotions running high. Very, very few men and never one-sided. Or one-sided for a very brief amount of time after which I do somehow manage to change focus.
I donât know if it is just me or most females vs males, but when I was in love with my ex and when I would watch fiction films with my favourite actors, I would be unable to imagine myself being kissed and touched by that character on the screen as I used to when I was not in love with anybody. I could still very well see myself in the place of the heroine, but I would be kissed and touched by my man, not by the man on the screen.
I read that women shouldnât be afraid of their men watching porn (unless it becomes highly addictive, they say it is an epidemics of sorts now around the world). Maybe the reason for that is the one that you are describing â that for you it passes quickly and you are back to loving your wife the same way.
IS it in fact the definition of marriage is the active ability to withhold desire for the sake of your spouse?
Maybe. For me, it comes naturally. I canât feel another way with any other man if I am in love with this man. Unless I am in love with both â I have had that terrible experience. But it was being in love with both and it lasted for a couple of months, not a short-term fantasy induced by a movie.
I do need to acknowledge though that even when I was in love with my ex, men from the daydreaming group also crossed my path. And I couldnât help daydreaming about them (at the same time feeling terribly because I was cheating of sorts). But again, it passed in a couple of hours, a couple of days at most. And my daydreaming hardly ever has sex in it, it is more about the physical touch, like hugging or cuddling or talking about something holding hands.
Maybe it is just me, I donât know.
So what did he provide you during your relationship?
Well, I was new at the job, just graduated with my second M.A.. Had never had a real relationship even though just turned 24 (you can read more about my unusual and soap-opera worthy love life in that other post of mine), did not find many guys attractive (but didnât find women attractive either â so something must have been seriously wrong with me), and here he comes. Charming, quite young (just 45 and not 50-55+ as it had been my âcurseâ with a few exceptions; looking for a father figure probably, but no idea why at the time (plus, there were exceptions!)), prominent in our field (he taught me a lot not only about the work we were doing but about life in general, I still use some of his pieces of advice here and there), willing to divorce his wife (even though his âin a year or twoâ turned into six years, and he did divorce, but not for me). Besides his being all the time around me (more on this below) and giving the impression that he was always there ready to catch me if I fall (safety and security), he and what he offered (because it all sounded as if our fate is sealed, we found each other and only death will us part) was a winning option if my life in this country didnât work out. If I returned home with him by my side, it would also be a triumph. I now believe it was mainly safety and security that I was lacking. My familyâs trend to see everything as going from bad to worse and certain depression genes were not exactly of help here, either.
Do you think looking back that if you found out he was still being intimate with your wife you would have broke everything off, or just found a way to deal because of what he provided you?
This is the one question that I canât answer and canât even begin to answer. You see, I am no fool. Certainly, I studied the internet, stories similar to mine, watched out for all the signs of him not being honest to me about his relationship with his wife, and still could see no âwrong-doingâ on his part. There was other evidence that he only maintained a façade of a happy marriage (too many to cover right now â but trust me, I watched out for all of this and grilled him extensively about anything I found suspicious). So the only way I would believe that he was still being intimate with his wife would be only if I saw it with my own eyes. And I tried to break loose several times. Once we only texted each other for three months, no talks on the phone (and he would call me in the morning, on his way back home from work, during my lunch, in my afternoon, for me to wish him good night and would call me to wish me good night) on my initiative. Another time, we didnât talk at all for three weeks until he emailed me saying that if the two loved each other, they would find a way. I melted and we resumed our regular communication⌠There were other attempts, too. I think if I had had irrefutable evidence that he was being intimate with her, that would have served as the last straw, and a very heavy one, added to all that load that I already had. I do think that that would have been the deal breaker. But again, I canât vouch for it. It may also depend on in what year of our relationship that would have happened.
I said above that I couldnât answer and couldnât even begin to answer this question because every time I thought about him lying to me and actually being intimate with her, would bring a desire to vomit. And I just couldnât continue thinking in that direction (seldom happens to me).
Also, I might have that thoughts, be a bit gloomy about it, but when I saw him, when I saw how he eagerly he was looking for my every gesture, how he was watching my every glance and every step, my mind simply refused to believe that a man behaving like this around me could be intimate with another woman. Have you ever seen a video of how in courtship the male bowerbird will dance to the female in an attempt to attract her? If you havenât, do, because that was the exact impression I had when my ex was around me.
And do you think that if you find a person that provides you the everything that you need right now, they would be worth doing anything for?
Well, after my breakup, I really decided to take the bull by the horns and look into why it was I had had those crushes that I had had (especially, #2 and #3). Tiny Buddha helped a great deal. Slowly I discovered that I didnât need a man to be there to catch me if I fall. I may not have many good friends, but I do have a few; I live in a country that wonât let you die just like that, out in the street; there are lots of good people out there, one only needs to ask for help if one needs help. In short, I stopped being afraid of life (even though I would have never acknowledged that I had been afraid of it before). The fact that I had already spent that many years at my job, which I love, which allows me to live decently, to have a decent amount of vacation time, and to travel, also helped.
And the fact that I did have a relationship, however unnatural some might call it (in fact, even about LDR, expertsâ opinions differ â a few say it is not that much different from a regular relationship), that men do pay attention to me (not my problem if they donât want to build on initial attraction) helped, too.
Maybe, one of the astounding discoveries was that it is never about us, it is always about them. Love IS in the eye of the beholder. We get attracted to this person and not to that person, not because of what this or that person is, but because of what response, what reaction that person triggers in us. And that reaction is triggered (or not triggered) because of our problems, complexes, insecurities, etc. Of course, chemistry plays a part, too.
Chemistry is a mystery to me. Maybe for me, it is all in the charisma, but not in any charisma. But if I do find a man charismatic, I am attracted to him. On the other hand, I can see why others fall for men whom I do find charismatic and can see why they fall for them, but I personally won’t, no matter what.
These are interesting ideas that I am not sure there are answers for because like you said we are so complicated. Oh one other question, how close do you think you could get to a person of the opposite sex (while being in an intimate relationship) without it being physical, ie. sex?
I am not sure I understand what kind of âclosenessâ you mean? Especially, âwhile being in an intimate relationshipâ? And âwithout it being physical, ie. sexâ? Are you asking about platonic love?
Sorry for the long post. That must be huge. And if you go for my other posts, outright overwhelming⌠Especially given my styleâŚ
But I am very excited discussing it all, so it must be serving some purpose!
Have a great evening!
X
October 11, 2017 at 7:42 pm #172791AnonymousInactiveOops, sorry, I guess I didnât quite finish answering your question âAnd do you think that if you find a person that provides you the everything that you need right now, they would be worth doing anything for?â
First, I am not sure I now need to find a person that would provide me with everything I need. I am afraid I am now all too convinced about how fickle and uncertain life is. Nothing is guaranteed. Second (a small digression), I have that funny observation that when I needed a man, I met men with âholesâ in them (as you put it) (even though they would hide it splendidly). Now (and before I fell so hard for my #1) I am again fine by myself, and it feels as if I am too whole and complete that men donât approach me exactly because I am so whole and complete â âshe doesnât need anyone.â Tiny Buddha has a dozen of blogs, some participants even wrote to me that I do need to be whole and complete to meet a whole and complete man, but I havenât met one yet. Maybe there are not that many of them out there, and our paths simply havenât crossed yet, I donât know.
 ââŚworth doing anything forâ? Depends on what you mean by âanything.â Depends on the situation. This answer would drive me crazy, because my ex would say it all the time. âWeâll seeâ, âtime will tellâ, âdepends on the circumstancesâ⌠One might take them as a good excuse for not planning anything or throwing oneâs hands up, but in reality, can we really tell what tomorrow will bring?
Back to your question, my soul-searching and reading for the past two years brought me to believing that there absolutely must be certain boundaries. And it is best to set them, to know what they are and to stick to them. But I am not sure I am a good counsellor on this oneâŚ
X
-
AuthorPosts