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July 19, 2018 at 8:50 am #217639AnonymousGuest
Dear joanna:
There are inconsistencies in your story: the date lasted an hour, an hour or an hour and a half (you stated you watched the time of the date); the date consisted of going out for a drink or coffee. You stated you didn’t see him for a couple of years and yet you met him at the gym so that he would gather some things before going for a drink or coffee. (You added the gym element so to explain the difference between the hour and the hour and a half).
And then, following the first date he told you he had a good time, you texted him “me too”. He didn’t respond to that. Then before a second date, he tells you that he wants to be yours, that you will be going to vacations together, that you will be forever in his life, all following “me too”, without you communicating to him anything encouraging of such an infatuation.
anita
July 19, 2018 at 9:12 am #217653AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
what exactly is the inconsistency? Yes I added the gym element to explain it was more less an hour and a half because before going for a coffee we went to the gym. When he first proposed this meeting he said we would go to this gym together, very casual, and then to sit and talk for a coffee, but he also said he was infatuated with me in the past, so I knew it could be more like a date. But then when we met he said about this football match, that he doesn’t have much time. and I felt insecure and thought maybe he doesn’t like me.
Yes that’s correct, I didn’t communicate to him any feelings, I said it’s okay we can meet again, why not. I liked him. But then he started writing all this about us being together, and it was all after this first meeting. He said he’s so happy I agreed to meet, he never thought I would want to see him, He always dreamed of me, and he’s happy it”s “finally happening” like it’s obvious we’re going to be a couple now etc. After he asked me can we go on vacation for 5 days next week I told him it’s a bit overwhelming and maybe just slow down a little with expressing too much, and that I like him but prefer for things to happen step by step so maybe just chill down a bit and see what happens.
I don’t know, does that sound like I shouldn’t have agreed to see him again, or was I not honest by continuing dating when I didn’t have any feelings for him. Or am I a bad person because I didn’t feel anything and he did (or he just said he did) and I should have ended this right away after first time.
July 19, 2018 at 9:28 am #217663AnonymousInactive*
July 19, 2018 at 9:50 am #217669AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
I wrote to you earlier that he has issues, and he does. The two of you have significant issues. One of his issues is going from the reasonable I-had-a great-time-let’s-do-this-again to you-and-I-forever, all before a second date.
One issue you brought into this very short relationship is dishonesty. Specifically, you had sex with him even though you didn’t like him much (“I don’t even know if I like him that much”, you wrote after the first date). If a man’s only motivation is to have sex with you, then not a loss for him. But if a man is very infatuated with you, wanting to be yours, etc., then having sex with him is likely to give him the false impression that you like him and encourage his hope for that you-and-I-forevermore.
During that first date you “felt so insecure”. You worried, during the date, that he was bored with you and so you ended it earlier than later. And yet, he told you that you look “so joyful and smiling all the time”. You faked that joy, didn’t you?
anita
July 19, 2018 at 11:40 am #217713AnonymousInactiveHe saw me not how I really was. At first I thought it’s nice that he says I’m so beautiful, self confident , ambitious, organized, how I can cook and he loves that (all based only on our conversations on facebook before going out) He said things that were exaggerated. I felt it’s a lot of pressure , that’s why I was insecure and thought he would see I’m not perfect. So of course I tried to look and act better than I usually do, and that’s why I had this breakdown after I went back home. I felt so stupid and hopeless I knew my hair wasn’t perfect, my face maybe,I knew I should have been more this and that etc. but turned out he liked me even more, and started those plans and almost told me he’s in love with me – at one point I thought he wants to say it already, through text. It scared me. I liked him, didn’t have any feelings, but I did like him and thought I would give him a chance. But I was afraid he would see me how I really am. Truth is I didn’t want to stay for the night first time because I was afraid he wouldn’t like me without makeup. Apart from other reasons this was in my head all the time. The first time when he kissed me and wanted to have sex, and when he said he couldn’t I went home and cried because I was afraid he didn’t like me and it was all my fault, that maybe he expected something else and I was so mediocre, I don’t know.. So I asked what can I do for him to relax him, and I didn’t listen when he said he just wants me to be there, to watch a movie and to spend a night, nothing more. My only thought was he didn’t like me and now it’s going to be a complete disaster and that I have to do it. But it’s not like I planned it and made him do it. I took off this shirt but I asked a couple of minutes later ‚Is this massage over?should we watch a film now’. He said No. I said again after some time ‚It’s Ok, you’re probably tired now’. He said ‚No’. I didn’t start this, it’s unfair to say I’m responsible for that, how much he accuses me. I know I shouldn’t have agreed to this massage but I don’t know why he proposed it anyway if it was so risky. I know it was a mistake, doing this in a first place and then not staying for the night. But did I really ruin his whole feelings, and infatuation with me on this one day? I have the feeling it wasn’t true and he didn’t in fact have any feelings for me. I texted him next day I wanted to see him and I miss him, and it was true, I really enjoyed this last time, it was relaxed and really nice, natural, without this pressure I felt earlier. I admit I didn’t feel what he felt (or what he said he felt because now I don’t believe he was saying the truth) but I can say I liked him, and started to like him more after we did this.
But then he started to accuse me of not having feelings, not being emotional, playing with him, not hugging him, teasing, not being able to fall in love – as if he knew it already etc. When I clearly said I miss him and want to see him again, so I don’t quite understand if he had feelings for me why didn’t he want this anymore, I didn’t reject him or anything. I just didn’t show him enough affection through all this couple of times we met including the previous day. I try to understand what I did wrong and I know what I shouldn’t have done but the fact is he said he had feelings for me and wanted a relationship with me „until the end of his life” and I believed him, then he changed his mind after couple of hours. That doesn’t seem real to me.
Well I don’t want anyone to say I’m perfect, most beautiful and impeccable because it scares me. I would prefer someone to see me how I am and to accept this, and understand I have my own insecurities too. He felt pressure and didn’t want to do it, I felt scared that he doesn’t want me because I feel ugly and worthless and I needed this to know that he likes me – but that didn’t come up in our conversation.
July 19, 2018 at 1:05 pm #217721AnonymousInactiveOne more thing: He told me many times (and I believed him) – that he would always put me first, my feelings and would always care about me in the first place, he wouldn’t even care about his own feelings, I would be number one always, forever. Because “that’s how he is” (Not that I would want that specifically to be more important in a relationship but it was nice he had this intention). But when something happened like this time when he ‘felt too much pressure’ and couldn’t do it we only talked about his feelings. I told him I feel really bad and I’m afraid it’s my fault and that I’m ugly, he said ‘no it’s not your fault, it’s my head’. And then we talked about how he felt, what he wants, how I didn’t make him feel comfortable because he felt insecure, how he would like it and what he wouldn’t like. how I left and how he was sad and how that made him feel, how he needed me to be there and help him with this. how I made it difficult for him because I didn’t show him I want this (?). I don’t see this as putting me first and I don’t see this as caring about my feelings at all. I felt like he needed to be taken care of and I couldn’t give this to him, it was too much. He didn’t even ask me why I left and why I reacted this way. He didn’t care. I cried when I got back, I needed him to say something right, to do something. He only talked about how he feels and how I didn’t show him affection enough so that HE would feel comfortable having sex with me. Sorry but that’s how I see it. I know you are probably right and I agree – he said he had feelings for me, I did this without feeling the same, not a good idea in general. and I thank you for saying this, you know I always value your opinion and for sure I will never do this again to anyone in the future, I’m glad I realized that. But I feel misled too, and I think he lied to me.
July 20, 2018 at 4:01 am #217801AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
It was a bad idea to be alone with him at his place. After a few conversations in a café, or elsewhere in public, and getting to know him, you had the opportunity to learn who he is, to figure out that indeed there is something very wrong with his mental well-being, so wrong that it will not allow a healthy relationship with you even if you were “perfect, most beautiful and impeccable”.
It is extremely unlikely for a mentally healthy man to believe and to state to a woman he doesn’t know, based on a Facebook interaction and following an hour or an hour and a half of a date, that he “wanted a relationship with (you) until the end of his life”
Another point, in the short relationship with him you made assumptions and acted on your assumptions without checking the truth or lack of truth of your assumptions: you assumed he was bored with you at the café, assumed he was thinking about that football event, assumed later that he is able and willing to always put you and your feelings first, because he told you so (“He told me many times (and I believed him)- that he would always put me first”). You then reacted to your assumptions by ending the first date, and to the latter assumption you reacted by having sex with him.
Better check your assumptions for truth of or lack of before you react, so that you base your behavior on what is true, not on what is untrue.
Putting this aside for a moment, I was wondering about three things:
1. What about Tom, you didn’t mention a resolution, if there was one to that story, or if he is part of your life still.
2. You wrote that you went out dancing with friends, how is your social life? I … assumed you didn’t have much of a social life, that your overall emotional experience in life was that of misery. I am now checking my assumption: how do you feel much of the time, when not sharing here, while out and about and otherwise, are you having fun, experiencing calm at times..?
3. You shared before that you make very little money and had to borrow money from your mother for groceries. How is it that you are considering buying an apartment for yourself, I wonder. You didn’t mention getting a different job or any source of new money.
anita
July 20, 2018 at 8:09 am #217847AnonymousInactiveDear Anita, You’re right I knew there was something very wrong with him telling me about feelings and plans so soon. I knew it and I told him this, but he didn’t stop and I continued dating him. That was very stupid of me. I understand it now. I understand it seems not logical to you. It’s not easy to tell everything here perfectly.
Tom is no longer in my life after last time I mentioned here meeting with him. He had a huge fight with his girlfriend, he didn’t tell her we met but she found out about me and suspected something. They almost broke up. After this we talked a lot several times, he said he was sorry and that it is damaging to me mostly, but also to him. He said that and I agreed, we never spoke again. Many conversations and arguments in between, but that’s how it ended.
I can’t say I have a great social life. I have a friend living nearby, I go to the village once a week when she lives. I have a few friends with whom I meet once a month, but it’s not parties or dancing, more like dinner or coffee. I went to the club recently but it was once in a year. Mostly I’m working, doing okay, being alone or with a friend. I feel worse when talking or arguing with my mother, so I try to limit those interactions. At nights mostly I have trouble sleeping, sometimes panic attacks but that has improved after Tom was gone, and it’s not every night, more like once a week or once in two weeks. Mostly just anxiety at nights and doing okay when busy or with someone. Most of my panic attacks are when nothing bad is going on, just overwhelmed with something during the day, then I think about my dad and my childhood and I can’t calm down. Or when something bad has happened like recently, then I can never control this panic.
I had a very little money when I posted here in September or October last year, I didn’t have any job then, only part time. I started working in language school, it’s not the biggest money and not the best job but allows me to survive. I’m buying a place from money that were put down after my father.
July 20, 2018 at 9:05 am #217881AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
What is the status on the moving plan:
-will you be moving to the property on which your grandparents are living, where your mother is a part owner?
-once you move, will you still be working in the language school or will you be looking for a different job?
It is my impression, looking back at our communication over time, that you never experienced (as far as I am aware of) a strong motivation to move out and away from your mother. It is as if, and maybe you are, okay with things. Miserable at times, yes, but almost, sort of, okay with your life as is. Not miserable or desperate enough to overcome the fear and move, get away.
anita
July 20, 2018 at 12:55 pm #217945AnonymousInactiveI just try to live. Also before 2016 I lived here alone for couple of years and plans were this place would be for me only, and she would live with her partner in his house so I didn’t have the reason to get away. Then she moved in. I took two cats and last year I earned very little money and went to a lot of job interviews with no success. not easy for me to take the money that I earn and my two cats and rent a place which is almost what I earn monthy. I understand your impression. I don’t know where I’ll be working, I have a difficulty finding anything better.
July 21, 2018 at 3:35 am #217967AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
Do you know of the term “learned helplessness”?
Wikipedia explains it this way (I am paraphrasing some): a behavior typical of an animal that occurs when the animal endures repeatedly painful stimuli which she is unable to escape or avoid. After such experience, the animal learns to no longer try to escape or avoid such painful stimuli/ situations. The animal learns that it is helpless in painful situations, that it has no control over such and it and it gives up trying.
In your second thread, May 3 of this year, you shared the following regarding your experience as a child with the violence between your parents: “I remember asking her.. please open those door please‘ I was so terrified.. she never listened… Sometimes I tried to separate them. Sometimes I just watched my mother beating my dad… me sitting in my room watching them beating and yelling. I can’t imagine worse thing in the world, a thing that would terrify worse… There was no escape, no hope and no help”-
you tried to prevent their fights by telling your mother to not open the door to your father coming home drunk, but she opened it anyway. You tried to separate them but they continued to fight.
You were helpless in that situation and it happened repeatedly, learned helplessness took hold. You wrote on that thread: “I feel like all my life I have been living, reliving and replaying those scenes from my childhood, sitting in this room with them, being exposed to violence, not being able to stop this (despite asking them) with no help from anyone. Sometimes I imagine myself.. leaving this room. I imagine getting up and leaving”
As an adult, now 31 or 32, you never left that room. Literally, you live with your mother. When she is not staying with you, it is because she chose to stay elsewhere (with a boyfriend). You never chose to move away from her, never took such an action. This is Learned Helplessness.
“Being able to imagine getting up and leaving countless times gives me a bit more freedom, and insight. I hope someday I will be able to do this”- this is your hope, to get up and leave, to take on action for the purpose of avoiding pain. To get up and leave your mother (and to get up and leave Tom, before).
February 3, in your first thread, you wrote: “I always seek someone to take care of me, because I feel I’m unable to take care of myself”- when you suffer from learned helplessness, you are unable to take care of yourself, you feel powerless, incapable, weak.
You keep wanting that “magical feeling (of safety) WITHOUT EVEN CHANHGING ANYTHING IN MY LIFE”, you wrote, February 4 (your capital, big letters).
You want that safe feeling when you visited your father after your parents’ divorce. You wrote about that: “He DIDN’T DO ANYTHING, everything just disappeared and it was okay” (your capital, bit letters).
This magical feeling of safety with no action to avoid and prevent pain is magic. Real safety and learned helplessness do not go together. For real safety, you have to take action.
In my last post to you I wrote: “you never experienced (as far as I am aware of) a strong motivation to move out and away from your mother. It is as if, and maybe you are, okay with things… almost, sort of, okay with your life as is”- I was correct. You did not express motivation to move out or better your life. What I understand now is that the reason you did not express such motivation is not because you are okay with your life but because you believe that you are unable to change it, and so, there is no use trying.
anita
July 22, 2018 at 4:41 am #218071AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
Re-reading my last post to you, I don’t know if you asked your mother at the time to open the door or to not open the door. In either case, you gave her a suggestion to prevent a physical confrontation with your father. When I quote, I retype, not paste, so there can be inaccuracies.
I suggest you read about learned helplessness, a phenomenon observed in other animals and it applies to humans as well. It happens without our choosing and happened to me too. But I was still motivated to move away from my mother. I don’t see that motivation in you throughout our months of communication. And so, you suffer and you do not consider changing your life circumstances so to no longer suffer.
There is another thing, I think that you lie to me sometimes. I think that you didn’t and do not have a plan to buy a place for yourself. I think there is that place where your grandparents live that may be yours in the future, after some legal transactions involving your mother giving up her ownership of it. I don’t think you are able or have planned to buy a place. There are other things that I think may be lies: meeting this last man at the gym, for one, before going to a café. And going to a café vs for drinks, that first date. Or how long the date lasted. You wrote to me a few posts ago, what does it matter, if the first date lasted an hour or an hour and a half (as you watched the time). Well, it matters to me if you lie to me.
Back to learned helplessness. It is not your choosing that it happened, not your fault. But now what? Can I instill in you a motivation that doesn’t exist: to change your life circumstances and move out- I don’t think I can. My empathy is with you for having suffered for so long. I wish you didn’t.
The frustration is witnessing you suffering while you no longer have to suffer. You had no choice as a child. But now you do. And so one may say: just leave, go elsewhere, life will still be tough but hope is in leaving. One said so, I did. But there is no practical value to my suggestion when you are lacking the motivation that will move you toward putting my suggestion into practice.
anita
July 22, 2018 at 11:39 pm #218207AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
I asked her to open that door, to let him in, so that he would go to bed and sleep, she provoked him and started arguments. I wrote more but deleted it, doesn’t matter now.
I don’t understand why would I lie about the gym, when this detail doesn’t even add or change anything. We met at 2:30 pm and he said we will go to the gym because he wants to take his things that he left and ask about something so I went with him. And then we went to the coffee shop. I know I sometimes wrote ‘a drink’ instead of ‘a coffee’, it’s because of translation, in my language a drink = something to drink, which is any drink, for example coffee, juice etc. I didn’t mean drink= alcoholic drink. I went home after 4 pm so I said it was an hour, but we were at this gym earlier together. I understand why it mattered to you, and why you noticed it, I just meant we met for a short time. I didn’t lie. I’m sorry you thought I lied.
My father left me some money, years ago I wanted to buy a place, we even looked at some in the internet, but my mother wanted to renovate her boyfriend’s home. She persuaded me we will all love together and she took some of those money. A couple of weeks ago after talking with you on this forum I talked to her about buying my place and I said I want him to give me back those money, but she started yelling and crying etc. After couple of days she said he will sell something and give some money but now it turns out he won’t. She said she can help me to pay for a place instead but it’s not enough for a place in the city so I found this one in the town 40km from here, it’s a small town.
I don’t want anyone to think a conversation with me is a waste of time, it’s how I understand it now, so I am sorry. I didn’t lie, and I don’t understand why it is happening and why you have this impression. I don’t have any possibility to prove I tell the truth. I am thankful for your time and effort, even for details you were reading over and over again, I really appreciate everything you told me here. It’s more than I would dare to ask.
July 23, 2018 at 5:55 am #218221AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
There is a saying: “Truth is stranger than fiction”. This man we are talking about, he wasn’t infatuated with you on that first meeting or date, suggesting when he met you accompany him to pick up some things he left at the gym and letting you know he will be watching football with his friends later on in the evening, without you. But then, before the second date he tells you that he wants to be yours forever, that you and him will go on vacations together and on and on.
What happened? As unreasonable or as strange as he may be, there still is a big missing piece that you didn’t share about. I was looking for that piece in the details of how long the meeting lasted and why was it drinks but only coffee (I understand drinks and coffee is the same in your first language). But the missing piece is still missing: were there meeting in between the first and the second, communications of great length otherwise, I don’t know.
And then, your mother persuaded you a long time ago to use your money (left to you by your father) so to renovate her boyfriend’s home. two weeks ago, you told her that you want that money back, and her response, “she started yelling and crying”. And her boyfriend will not give that money back. And yet, he is still her boyfriend and no rush on your part to move out, somehow, somewhere.. anywhere away from her. Never has been a rush, during the long months I communicated with you on your first thread- never an expressed desire that I could detect, to move away from her.
There are other things that puzzle me, that don’t add up for me. But I have no doubts that most of what you shared with me is true, best you know. Probably the great majority of things. But seems to me that sometimes you make great omissions, things that you subtract from the truth, (if not commissions as well).
In other words, I don’t trust that you are telling me the truth as you know it. I lost that trust I had in you and in your story. And so, the ground I stand on when communicating with you is shaky, not one I can or should proceed to walk on.
anita
July 23, 2018 at 6:53 am #218231AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
I don’t really have much more to add, or the missing piece here. There wasn’t any meeting in between, but there were two weeks during which we texted every day, and he told me a lot. I assume it’s not easy to explain everything here, or there are many details I omit which I’m not aware would be necessary here. I really don’t understand why someone would get the impression that I lied. I don’t think there’s anything I can do with it.
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