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  • #119980
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    i have a difficult time speaking bad about my parents, they immigrated here with nothing, and raised my sister and I to be priveleged successfull and happy-ish…

    Most of us must feel this way when we are new to opening up about personal things such as family and such deep rooted issues. I will try my very best, and know that this is just the beginning of my journey here on tiny buddha.

    My mom has had a tough life – objectively. Treated really poorly by her siblings after immigrating from India to the US (youngest of 6) and they isolated her and made it a point to treat her quite poorly for years into my childhood. Factors related to this are just plain bad people exist in the world, jealousy (my mom turned out to have a more fortunate life – on the outside to her siblings).

    In addition, there was a lot of mistreatment from my father’s parents (the negative in laws is nothing new in Indian culture!), and strife between my father and her. See in India arranged marriage was common then, and not necessarily bad. But my mother felt for many years that she moved to America, to a country of loneliness where even her own siblings (all she had) shunned, ridiculed, and harassed her – and then arranged to a man that was quite different than she (with his own issues such as a temper, anger issues more on that later).

    All in all, this was while she was hardly 25, newly wed, new mom with me a few years later, and during those years she truly suffered. She was as bright and positive as someone could be I recall, and she REALLY did try. I remember those early days when I could feel all this around me, but she made it a point to say we are okay, we are happy, life is wonderful, and I did grow up to be a quite happy “normal” child.

    Now I am 31. If I look back now, knowing what I know about psychology/psychiatry and just plain personal experience – I would say all the negative people and things happening to her at once scarred her for life, and transformed who she was.

    I like many children of immigrant families lived in a dual culture- but i LOVED it, there was nothing toxic about this, I liked that my parents upheld their values while still supporting me to as modern, educated, and free as I desired. Life wasn’t bad at all. And then around my teens I started realizing although I was really happy, I was different. My mind didn’t process negative emotions in the same way, I had an affinity to overanalyze, fixate, and create a lot of burden of guilt on myself. Needless to say, at this point (years later) my mom had formed into a quite negative and anxiety ridden women herself, in some ways in my teens. background- As a housewife she faced a lot of loneliness her whole life, since her first move as mentioned above, and I feel it was engrained in my whole childhood to “feel bad” I always recall feeling, wow how sad my mom’s life was, how sad people can be, why did people do this to her? and at that time I found that my mom was strong and that despite it all she remained positive, yet i do remember always feeling worried that she was lonely, or is she happy? hard to explain. my mother after my teens to around the time i went to ccollege (i have a sister 7 years younger than me) started taking a different approach. It was the “i’m sick of being sad and lonely” approach, she started traveling – and not just traveling, obsesesed with travel and reading and voracious about learning about the world – which we were happy about, esp because it was a healthy way to stay occupied. During this time too I noticed how negative she had made me, I had odd views of the world and people – some of which may be common to all immigrant children, but most of which I saw were not.
    i felt disappointed constantly, birhtdays as a teenager I found myself focusing more on “who wasn’t there for me” then the celebration or party at hand. small things, but early glimpses. my mom started becoming more intense, she always was quite particular and we would joke “OCD” and a perfectionist – but it was extreme. i would come home and say something like ok “lets make tacos” and she would be overburdened with stress from cleaning the house – no worries of course we didn’t need to cook, but just exammples. she would say things like i had to spend so much time planning our trip that i’m exhuasted, to which my sister and i would say – well mom it is supposed to be fun don’t worry too much about it – we would get “easy for you to say, it takes a lot of planning.”
    fine – if thats how you want to approach it fine, whatever floats your boat.
    but itgot worse. we are fortunate enough for tons of travel, and for my mom to have the liberty to plan very wonderful vacations, but on one particular trip in thailand my mother was so “crazy” about the plan for that day my sister and i just lost it, we said listen we are here to relax, we both are in school (i in med school) and we need a break too, and small little fairly normal arguments would form between three ladies of the house. the small bickering is fine – but so many comments throughout about “oh no one elses parents takes them on trips like this, you guys have no appreciation, etc.” but then the next morning say oh you know moms say that when they get angry, you can’t take it all personal. still fine, we laughed it off to crazy indian parents so to speak.

    but i know that the “worse she got” the worse i got. i noticed into my 20s i felt worse, worse ability to deal with disappointment (personal) but able to shine like a rock start in medical school and career. i had broken up with a long term Bf, my choice, and I lived wiTH severe dread and guilt about making the wrong decisions for YEARS to the point that it took over my life. surprisingly my mother was not very negative about this, and just supportive. around 25 i started dating seriously again, and i felt often that I wanted to find a good guy not just for me, but also that fits in my familly (normal Indian family values) – a girl we know from my town who isn’t the best of characters had gotten engaged to a good guy, and i felt constantly from my mother, “look how smart she is, she snagged a good one – you have so much going for you but we never have good luck with these things”
    once again, focus on meeting a good boy – totally fine, its the other stuff, it starteed the “we have bad luck, the world is against us” feeling that has perpetuated. she was different now, always talking out loud about how much she travels and how great her life is, to which my sister and i sometimes felt wow what happened to mmom, shes now becoming showy almost – like “it’s my turn to be happy now, i’ll show the world.” and that she does.

    this is so long winded and i feel so jumbled, but a quick synopsis of the present. indian parents have a LOT of involvement in weddings, I am getting married in less than a year, 500 person wedding, im first born and my fiance is an only child – parents are going all out. familly involvement, family pressure, not an issue – and expected. but my mother has become pathologic.
    less than 24 hours after my surprise proposal and amazing party, she calls me frantically and says “his side is going to try to do things their way, we need to control them, – in regards to the familly engagement party that they will plan.” she terrorized me about this all week that I was in tears by friday – my fiance says wow its only been 5 days since the proposal and somehow your mom has made you upset again, this is when he started really seeing it.
    indian parents have many ups and downs about how to go about planning, and differences in particular traditions. but that is not the point –my mother is unable to deal with anything normally anymore – if we try to reason with her, “we are against her.” if we try to say something about her over – reacting, “all mother’s act like this, you will see one day.” my sister (my right hand) will say mother we know the engagement party is important to you, but was it worth not letting her (me) have even one week to relax and be happy after a proposal. to which she is INFURIATED AND SAYS, after all we did for you all we do is help you. she feels i am “brainwashed” by my fiances parents bc they are quiet and passive, and so I side with them.
    it has become unbearable. she frantically calls me or even my fiance’s parents when things are not going in a way she deems right, just to take the joy out of everything – and it is deeper than a focus on events or weddings, it’s mentally ill

    and the reason i write this now is not because of the wedding, that is the least of my concern and only one weekend of life. its that it shows me my mother, who sadly had a terrible life in her younger years, has now become toxic herself. she was so damaged that now she is damaging, as though now that she finally has a chance to not suffer she has no awareness of how she treats others and her fixations on things. it is difficult to explain but in short, my sister and i feel this is the pinnacle – we have a mother with a mental illness, or at least a personality disorder such as borderline. there is so much mmore to the story but I don’t want to ramble, and hope to just start something.

    and background, my mother’s own mother suffered from severe depression, and committed suicide In India – clearly a genetic link and predisposition.

    #119984
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cali Chica:

    Following are quotes from your post above followed by my comments, and then a summary. I didn’t read your other thread yet, but I will after I submit this reply.

    1. Your mother said: “we have bad luck, the world is against us” – very much my own mother’s attitude, repeated for decades, my whole life. This quote caught my eye because it is so familiar to me.

    2. “if we try to reason with her, ‘we are against her”- Again, caught my eye because my mother as well expressed this every single time I expressed anything that was not the same as her thinking. Trying to reason with my mother was the most frustrating and damaging-to-me experiences of my childhood (and adulthood).

    3. “if we try to say something about her over – reacting, ‘all mother’s act like this”- again, this caught my eye as well because it is so … so familiar to me. That was a to-go Stop-sign for any scent of disagreement.

    4. “she is INFURIATED AND SAYS, after all we did for you all we do is help you.” – again, so very familiar to me. My mother’s frequent rantings about …all she did for me was very damaging to me and created a deep rooted belief in me that I owe her and am indebted to her.

    5. “she was so damaged that now she is damaging”- my mother had a terrible childhood, abused by her siblings (!), neglected, living in an orphan institution for a few years as a child, where because of a medical mistreatment she permanently lost all her hair, a major, major lifelong upset for her.

    6. “we have a mother with a mental illness, or at least a personality disorder such as borderline.”- I believe the same about my mother.

    My summary: I am not Indian, not of the Indian culture, but from my understanding, Indian culture is not isolated from traditional thinking and practices everywhere else. The struggle of the individual to free oneself from cultural/ familial imprisonment or slavery (as I see it) exists across all continents and countries.

    I cut all contact with my mother in January 2014, with the last card I sent her. There will be no further contact. I suffered a lot of guilt for having done so and I understand this is probably unthinkable for you to entertain. With my experience, this is my input to you: the way things are, your mother is mentally disturbed and is running the show. She is not reasonable, not sensible, and closed to any sensible input from anyone. And she is running your life and is likely to continue doing that. Basically, you have a crazy woman running your life. The solution, obviously, is to disallow the crazy woman from running your life (as well as your husband’s life and future children). To disallow her to continue to damage you, and your future children.

    If you agree, how can you- with your future husband’s help, as well as your sister’s help- how can you all contain the crazy woman so she does not inflict her craziness on you, and your future children?

    anita

    #119987
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I realize I posted this first in a different topic and did not delete properly. Now I have it only here!

    Thank you so much for your response and personal anecdotes. I really appreciate someone and coming out and dissecting this and even giving their OWN personal information and experiences. I like that I am able to openly admit out loud that this isn’t just a nuisance, or “crazy wedding planning stress” or a bad week or month, this is a PROBLEM.
    funny you said distance, for the FIRST time in my entire life my mother and I haven’t spoken to each other in days, and that may not sound like a big thing for some people – but our fight was so epic she told my sister and I to leave because she couldn’t take us harassing her anymore (we were all home for wedding planning, my fiance was outside). my fiance gets home and sees this all and sayd what happened – to which we say lets leave.

    anyway clearly this is affecting everyone. sometimes i feel that she is a patient, and so should I not care for her as I do for other patients with patience and care (I am a physician). on the other side i see what is more disturbing is not her and her thoughts – but more me and what IVE become. how i feel distorted negative, and just plain off a lot, the more i’ve gotten older. that is a sign to me that as she gets worse, i get worse ( and my sister) and as above the damged is becoming mmore damaging.

    she feels quite alone in the world, but these days has my dad as an alliance, more friends than 20 years ago, and lots of opportunity to stay busy. which i do feel better about, but with that was a lot of PROJECTIng.
    MY Sister was home one day a year ago, and my mothers family friends were coming over and she says to my sister : maybe you should leave the house for a bit, we don’t want it to look like you’re home doing nothing to them. case in point, inability to focus on important things, she was so caught up in finally not being lonely anymore that now that she isn’t she wants to feverishly “make sure” my sister is not. and my sister was fine, she was a normal 23 year old at home without plans because she isn’t always extroverted. mmy mother created a lot of anxiety about friendships in her, especially bc she is 7 years my junior and so grew up in moree of that phase of life.
    i was luckily to come out of adolescence relatively unscathed by a lot of it.

    i find it extremely difficult to accept the only way to cope is to cut off ties, but it seems that may be the only solution. there is absolutely no reasoning with her, and now even my father for that matter – it seems they have morphed into one because a lot of their discord over the years has brought them close together in the “if we don’t stick together and stand up strong then who will.”

    my younger sister suffers more than me shes 24, and finding it difficult to feel – are my parents this ill? wow how much have a struggled my whole life – she appears to have developed quite an anxiety disorder into teens and now – which i can attribute to genetics perhaps andd of course this up bringing.

    i work so hard in career and personal life, stay fit, do yoga, have great friends – but funny thing is- my fiance mentioned it too – it always feels like there is sommething wrong – and now it makes sense – because there is – because I have lived a life around this sort of energy –of course there is something wrong!

    #119990
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cali Chica:

    You are welcome.

    You wrote: “sometimes i feel that she is a patient, and so should I not care for her as I do for other patients with patience and care (I am a physician).” When a physician sees a patient, most often, the patient looks up to the physician as a person of authority (on health issues). Problem is your mother believes she is authority.

    You wrote: “as she gets worse, i get worse”- this is an observation you made over time and so, it is a reliable observation. And the trend is likely to continue: she gets worse and you get worse. This trend is likely to continue because she does not attend competent psychotherapy and is not motivated to heal. It is also likely to continue as you maintain your closeness with her.

    It is the closeness that makes it possible for you to be damaged by her.

    The interesting part of this closeness point, is that “she feels quite alone in the world”-

    and this is my experience. I was the one who wanted closeness with my mother and I was the one willing to do anything, to twist myself (and my mind) any which way so to be close with her. It was a surprise to me when I realized it was only me reaching out. She… was not close to me, throughout my childhood and adulthood. She felt alone the whole time.

    You mentioned genetics. I am a great believer in Nurture (not Nature) as the cause of most mental disorders. I no longer believe in predisposition as a cause for anxiety, for example. I believe we are all born with a predisposition for anxiety- because fear is the most powerful emotion in nature, as danger is what animals attend to first.

    I didn’t understand what you shared about your sister, the first you mentioned in the post above. I don’t know if it matters as to what I will write next:

    I wasted lots of time, my whole youth, and suffered a whole lot because I remained close to my mother. Obviously I don’t recommend to do what I did. I suggest that you limit your contact with your mother (and father since you wrote they act like a unit) as much as you need so to prevent further damage to you. I recommend you limit contact with her as is needed for you to heal from damage already done.

    I am extremely humble about the possibility that you will do the above- really limit contact with her to the extent that it takes to prevent further damage and heal from existing damage. I am that humble because it took me more than 40 years of wanting to end contact with my mother, to actually do so. And as I read and hear people’s stories, I know that adult children hardly ever take that route.

    It still fascinates me, how… millions and millions of adult children sacrifice their well being and the well being of their children for the sake of their parents, while all along, the parents are not benefited and feel as alone and rejected as if the child/ adult child sacrificed nothing at all.

    It is all in vain, all that sacrifice.

    anita

    #119997
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    hello anita,

    you are as wise as ever, and i can not imagine what you went through for a struggle of 40 years. the sacrifice is all in vain – can that not be the best quote to symbolize this all. i am actually going to have my sister read some of this later/and even post in the near future as it will be beneficial.

    my friend/only person who knows a little about this outside my parents sister and fiance– mentioned that she maybe acting out because she has severe fear of abandonment – whiich i do know is common in borderline personality disorder. this may be apart of it, and does make sense to a point.

    few months ago – she had some terrible back pain (i and my father are doctors nothing that she doesn’t have resources for)
    my father was there with her of course, and it was quite scary for her given that it is the first time she had an ailment (she is pretty young in her 50s). medical condition was managed, and of course there was still a ton of anxiety and dread on her end. fine, acceptable – and not like i don’t see this in my patientseveryday.

    the kicker is- that weekend my sister came to visit me (she wasliving at home at the time with my parents)- for the weekend and for an interview. she leaves my mom friday night after my dad is home, to make sure she isnt alone in case her back gives out etc. saturday an interview. our mom calls us saturday evening, sounding quite distraught and says – so has your sister left yet to come back home here. i said yeah shes getting ready, mom goes on a rampage, you know this is quite serious, the two of you should know better – her interview was over hours ago, why didn’t she think to just come back straight away. i said mom, i get it, and we are there for you, but just bc it wasn’t immediate doesnt mean we dont care – it will take time and we know it isnt anything urgent as in emergency related.
    she goes on about how parents do so much for kkids and when they finally need help, kids are nowheere to be found. then proceeds to tell us she told our aunt how disappointed she was with us that we werent there for her. i tell her i have my boards in a week or 2. she remarks, well you seem to have time to go out to dinner and all with your friends these days and hang with your sister this weekend – you couldn’t come home to help your mom. – you get the gist.

    my sister and i felt such horror, guilt, and disgust. then that monday after the weekend passes my sister has returned home. she calls me at 7 am (i work early in the operating room). and says you know your dad and i were discussing, that at moments like that the kids should have come immediately – that really wasnt right and you should learn.

    one example outside of anything to do with wedding etc.

    you are so right about nature vs. nurture and our innate ability to sense fear. in fact i note around me how some of my friends have been told and taught to rise above, don’t succumb to wallow and sorrow – i never learned that. i always went along with the well of course i’m miserable – xyz happened, of course i’m sad, this person did this. never recognizing that (to a point) i had the ability to control the suffering, and that the amount of misery i endured was directly related to my thought process and emphasis.

    the emphasis was always on the outside, which severely impacts me even at this age of 31. i recall a picture from disneyworld i looked at a while ago, smiling me at 5, and parents. the first thought isn’t oh wow thegood old days – it’s oh i remember my mom saying, “look at everyone else they are here with a big family, wouldn’t it be nice if we were too.” and of course i felt that, and continued to – and it made sense to me, my mom had been isolated and mistreated and yearned for “company” as she called it (company of others/friendships) her whole life, that it TOOK AWAy what we had. it’s like sitting at a dinner table of 4 and focusing on the 6 that didn’t make it – with that mindset nothing or no one could be enough.

    issue is – how do you undo that – how do and my sister as adults train ourselves to know that is abnormal and aberrant thinking, and that it isn’t reality – that if another person or family had the same people at the table they would take it as grateful or just normal, but she would have taken it as sad.
    i felt this was inevitable, of course this was the minddset, of course this was the approach, i remember explaining this to a young bf and telling him with wide eyes – well you know we were so lonely when i was a child because my familly (aunts and uncles) isolated her and us from holidays and all, so now the focus is on having people around, the more the merrier.
    i recall how innocent that sounds, but yet so toxic…because it is the focus.

    these days that is not her focus, but clearly damage has been done. i appreciate how humble you are about the disconnect. and you are right indian or not, cultured or not – patterns remain the same, we are all guilt stricken about our parents. i havven’t talked to her ina few days, and the last convo was – well what do you want me to do? call the wedding venue and cancel the wedding, tell me immediately? i said is that the concern or the fact that your daughter is sitting here telling you – you make her miserable for not just the wedding planning, but LIFE. she would not have it, i almost saw a shield go up around her and her brain instantly deflecting those comments. she responds – don’t you dare blame me, all i do is help, etc etc and it goes on.

    i feel sad that i haven’t talked to her, but the first glimpses of knowing that i am put on this earth as a human, a child of someone nonetheless, but also someone who deserves happiness in my own right – i am seeing that although parents were loving and doting, they were toxic to my brain/thought process as a young child/and now as a adult. i don’t have to take this as just coming with the territory, i do have a choice – it’s just a matter of how.

    we are planning a huge 500 person indian wedding for the fall, very common in my culture and community and very elaborate. family and parental issues are array during this time for many people and cultures. but i do know that this all has far to do with the wedding, she is simply utilizing it as sommething to fixate on and control

    #120003
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cali Chica:

    You wrote, in your example: “i said mom, i get it, and we are there for you, but just bc it wasn’t immediate doesnt mean we dont care”- this is the point: for her, it does mean you don’t care. Whenever you don’t perform 100% according to her script, you don’t care. The thing about my mother’s script is that it appeared retroactively, so even if I was able to read her mind, I still couldn’t have performed 100% according to her script because of timing. The script is retroactive.

    Notice the timing in your example: your sister leaves your mother (father present with mother) Friday night. Script does not exist yet. Then “saturday an interview. our mom calls us saturday evening, sounding quite distraught” – Saturday morning and later in the day, the script still does not exist. Friday evening is the time the script is born. She calls when she has the script and it is too late to fit it.

    Regarding fear of abandonment as part of the BPD diagnosis- and any other explanation to your mother’s behavior: when is it not the case that a person damaging another repeatedly, is not pre-damaged themselves? I can’t think of a single example otherwise. It is always the case.

    Again, I relate to your mother’s repeated expressions of how other people have better lives, better luck… as a matter of fact, I heard my mother’s voice in my mind saying: she (your mother) has it so good. She is married, has a husband to take care of her (I don’t!). She travelled all over the world (And what did I see in my miserable life!) She has a physician for a daughter (I always wanted a doctor daughter…) and on and on.

    And I relate to more of what you wrote. You mentioned Love: ” i am seeing that although parents were loving and doting, they were toxic to my brain.” The child never fails to love the parent but the parent often fails to love the child.

    When you love someone you don’t repeatedly damage them. You notice you are hurting your loved one and you take a step back in horror: I hurt the one I love. Love promote the well being of the loved one, not damages it, without noticing or caring or correcting. And keep on going, damaging.

    Love is not toxic, by definition.

    Hope you post again anytime, if you feel our communication is beneficial to you. It certainly is beneficial to me.

    anita

    #120005
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Thank you. I know I can go on about this for ever, and the examples are not necessarily the focus. I guess what I would like to learn from you. What are the ways you reminded yourself that this was all toxic, how did you cope with all the guilt, and what helped you make more healthy boundaries (once again boundaries under the pretense of tremendous guilt). This has begun to affect the health of my sister and I, although we are young and healthy – our quality of life is doomed is this remains a focal point. I don’t want any more of my sister’s 20s to disappear to toxicity as well – and also for the sake of sanity with and of my future husband and children as you said!

    #120007
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cali Chica:

    I would like to attend to your last post later, after I take a long walk, hours from now, maybe tomorrow morning. I’d like to understand your question better, so if you will, please clarify the following:

    Are you considering limiting contact with your mother/ parents? Cutting all contact (what I did)? Suggesting your sister does one or the other?

    Regarding “healthy boundaries – are you hoping to establish those with your mother (while in contact, obviously)? Any ideas of how to do that?

    anita

    #120048
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cali Chica:

    I would like to answer your question best I can, although I am not all clear about your question. I am assuming you want to continue to have contact with your mother but set healthy boundaries with her. You are asking how to set healthy boundaries and deal with the guilt involved in setting healthy boundaries.

    My answer:

    First, a basic understanding of the dynamic between your mother and you. It is best stated in what she repeatedly expressed to you, quotes from your first post: “the world is against us” and “if we try to reason with her, ‘we are against her'”

    In her mind there is “us”, that is she and someone else (your father, you, your sisters) only if that someone else agrees with her and submits to her. It is her way or the highway. You are either with her, identical in thoughts, feelings and behaviors to her at any time, or you are against her. Your mother is not about Love, that is appreciating another as a worthy individual. She is about Power-over.

    There is only one way to set boundaries with a person motivated by power-over, and that is exerting equal or greater power. Don’t try to reason with her or to talk love to her. Talk power- her language, the one she understands and the value she appreciates.

    When she talks to you in a way that distresses you, stop her talk by telling her: stop saying these things (be specific). If she continues end the visit (be it by phone or in person). Give her options: “Mother, you can do A or B” She insists on C, you say, “No, you choose A or B”- she refuses, she gets neither A, nor B nor C.

    You don’t negotiate with her, you don’t compromise- these is submission in her language. Instead you state and assert from a position of power.

    Regarding the guilt which is based on the misconception that a mother is loving and knows best, correct the misconception, over time. Maybe in competent psychotherapy with a therapist who believes in individuality and not in submission.

    anita

    #120050
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Good morning Anita,

    Thank you for your response. I feel like you get that totally cutting off contact will likely be unreasonable, and you pretty much read my mind. I think the disconnect for me is that approach, the “no negotiation” my sister and i have been working on the “no reasoning with her approach” but that has fallen short – because its a dead end. i think what was important to realize about that is “just letting her be and trying not to reason with her” still was damaging to us – although it was less stressful than dealing with a crazy person we would say. clearly that was not the right solution.
    After the debacle of last weekend, since our parents have not spoken to us – it is what i hope to be pivotal. i know they will never change, and in fact get worse. i know they think we are brainwashed, against them, abandoning the ones who sacrificed their whole life for us – and i think we struggle with that greatly: they did sacrifice their whole life (as did most immigrant parents of that generation) – but then what? are we indebted to them forever – do we just “take it” – clearly the answer is no.
    and then there is the whole other thing of realizing that they – especially my mother- has no insight and awareness. she is truly a patient in that sense, and it is quite sad, that someone can be so ill. I guess like i said before i spent half my life feeling bad for her, and how did that change anything or benefit anyone? it didn’t.
    i know that she will make it about all she wants to do is help, all parents do this, all their kids are so understanding and respectful and appreciative – why are WE not like that. i will have to stand so strong to these comments and know they are in fact FALSE. she will also make it a big deal about how now i am siding with the “other side” (future in laws – which mind you i ddont talk to them much and don’t feel compelled by any means). i will have to stand strong and know in my heart this is untrue, and it is just her hysteria and paranoia. I will have to stand strong and say outloud or to myself – these are delusions coming from a delusional person, this is not reality and none of these comments make me less of a daughter or supporter.

    my favorite thing you said is that all the sacrifices go in vain -and it is true. i used to feel so odd thinking such a thing because i would feel like – well what i have done? they gave us their whole life – we had it easy. but it’s not true, it wasnt and isnt easy – if it was would I be here typing all this?

    lastly i struggle from the part that its not black and white – my mom in many ways is loving, supportive, and the “coolest mom” growing up – my sister and i discussed this and decided that – this should not hold us back – because this does not rationalize the OTHer aspects of my mother (the parts that are more damaging). that with her great qualities were such bad, and that humans are complex as a whole and we have to see her for her entirely – not make excuses. i note how even now their “support” causes tremendous anxiety. they are no longer able to approach almost anything without heightened anxiety – whether it be going to the airport, making an appointment, or something much larger – i am allowed to say that although they care and are concerned, their approach is destructive.

    #120052
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    I forgot to add before I clicked submit. When i close my eyes I think of my mom as a damaged soul, a sad and abused (so to speak) fragile puppy that is now coming out in the world with a big bark. this feeling about her makes it quite difficult to “hate her” or to feel i should attempt to have “power over her” in a way it simply just makes me feel soo soo bad for her.
    however, talking to you has made me realize that even though that all may be true – it doesnt take away any of the aforementioned.

    #120056
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cali Chica:

    You wrote: “I feel like you get that totally cutting off contact will likely be unreasonable”- incorrect: I believe it is very reasonable and the only possible way to stop further damage. I also believe you are not likely to do so because it is a difficult process that few take on and even fewer persist in.

    You wrote: “the ones who sacrificed their whole life for us”- a woman like your mother does not sacrifice, she invests. And now she is exacting her expected return on investment.

    You wrote that your mother is “complex as a whole and we have to see her for her entirely”- that would be the aim and responsibility of a jury or a judge in determining the future of a defendant in court. Not the job of the victim. The victim’s job and responsibility is to put an end to the damage, to be safe.

    You wrote: “i note how even now their ‘support’ causes tremendous anxiety.” Then it is not support. It is an assault in the guise of support. See it for what it is.

    You wrote: “I think of my mom as a damaged soul, a sad and abused (so to speak) fragile puppy that is now coming out in the world with a big bark. this feeling about her makes it quite difficult to ‘hate her’ or to feel i should attempt to have ‘power over her’ in a way it simply just makes me feel soo soo bad for her.”

    This is what kept me in contact with my mother for forty years of wanting freedom from her. I saw her as that “fragile puppy”, a weak and innocent child. It took a lot of healing on my part to see myself as that fragile puppy and to understand that in the context of me and my mother she has been the barking dog and I was the bleeding puppy. Empathy for her as the bleeding puppy that she was when she was a child, a part that still exists in her, should be engaged by people who are not the past and current victims of her biting.

    In context of you and your mother, she is the one biting and you are the one bleeding. The purpose of exerting equal power over her is not to hurt her, but to minimize her hurting you.

    anita

    #120237
    cali sister
    Participant

    Hi anita,

    I am going to jump in here really quick – I am the sister of Cali Chica. Thank you so much for writing all of your posts. They have been really helpful. I have to leave for work in 15 min so this will be a quick one – just wanted to tell you the recent whirlwind of events. my mother is having an episode of some sort (hard to diagnose properly) – but in layman terminology- she is going even more insane. she is harrassing my sister and i verbally. last night she called saying that our father is having really bad chest pain (he has coronary artery disease so this is not a minor thing). and then changes the story and says “not that type of chest pain. he has chest pain in the center, from throwing up all day etc”. So my sister and i are on the phone wondering what is true what isnt. i call her and tell her to call 911 if it really is that bad. she starts screaming horrendous things and me and then proceeds to tell me not to come because she knows i have work tomorrow (because of course she is so caring). and then continues to scream about how this has all happened because of us, and she needs to take care of her husband, and that as parents they have done so much and this is the suffering they get from their sacrifices. idk if my sister has mentioned to you in the earlier posts about an engagement party coming up..literally in one week. which they change their mind about every hour and harrass my sister and her in-laws – switching between if they will attend or not. they forced a family meeting to happen today between everyone, however now are saying that since dad is too sick – we cannot make it. it is insanity. it is lifechanging because i see the truth but i also do not know the solution. it is also very hard for me to think..wow this is my life. these are my parents. i dont really have parents. and then i look back at memories when things didnt seem this bad. it all feels like this horrible breakup. sorry if this post is all over the place. i am writing it quickly with a roller coaster of thoughts.

    #120238
    Peppermint
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica, dear Calisister,

    I don’t really have advice for you but wanted to give you a virtual hug and write down my thoughts anyway. Things really seem to have escalated in your family. I imagine being screamed at by your mother was a horrible experience. If nothing else, it is frightening to see a parent loose it so completely, isn’t it? She was probably frightened that her husband might die and felt helpless. Still your suggestion to call 911 was the right thing to do in my opinion – there was nothing you yourself could have done, and if he had had a heartattack, time would have been critical.
    I am conviced that:
    1. No matter how much they did for you, you don’t owe your mother to let her scream at you.
    2. An engagement party is (ideally) a once in a lifetime event and shouldn’t be all about your parents but about the groom and bride.
    I am wondering if you can take (or have allready taken) your parents out of the „planning commitee“ for the party?

    #120243
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Peppermint, thank you for your kind words – unfortunately, and you can read above, my parents are a force that cannot be reckoned with – they are insconsolabe unreasonable people that have truly gone down the deep end – the focus now is how do my sister and i maintain sanity and try for personal damage control.

    Dear Anita,

    You could not be more right. I may not know you in real life, but you helped my sister and I through yesterday- we had your guidance in mind. I almost imagined you watching all of it from the outside and shaking your head and thinking wow – exactly what I expected, I told you so (in the most supportive of ways).
    As my sister said above, yesterday was a perfect microcosm of their insanity, abuse, and psychosis. Almost textbook.

    Myself, fiance, and his parents (who i will just call in laws to make it easier) – went along with their plan for a family meeting – for no true reason but to end the constant stalking and harassment since last week’s fight – about their NEED for us to all meet today, constant calls text messages about the necessity, i tried to say it wasn’t a good idea for us today and of course they could not understand. during that conversation i attemmpted the “power over” technique. what became of that was insane hysteria screaming saying “now that youre all grown up and you make your own money, you don’t need us this is what you do, then say we are not going to come to this engagement party next week.
    (background about engagement party – culturally the guys side throws it, his mom wanted to do something small, but my mom created INSANITY over that approach 6 months ago and FORCED his parents to have a large engagement party – so this is 200 people at this nice venue, and the beginning of the party will be a short religious ceremony with parents – which she INSISTED had to be a certain way – money is not the focus, but this is pretty much like a mini wedding next weekend and costs as much as most peoples weddings! ok back to now)
    so she hangs up the phone. she immediately calls my MIL and cries and screams and says they are so hurt, they wont be coming to engagement party and will have to tell all their friends not to (half the guest list). during this time i am sitting in horror and talking to my sister, and we say to ourselves wow – just as expected it is getting worse and worse and worse. how can we at least get through this next week – and if for nothing for the inlaws to not have a fiasco at this party – minds racing.

    my mom calls back a few minutes later SOBBING, OPPOSITE DEMEANOR, saying” sorry i don’t know what i have done to you but i am sorry forgive me, i love you and i want all of this okay, we are going to have a good meeting tomorrow and patch everything up – and proceed in such a nice way and go to india (mind you my mother, father, and i are booked to go to india on Dec.2 for 3 weeks for wedding shopping). then she puts my dad on the line who is equally hysterical and apologetic. i say so did you call the in laws and say youre not coming?!?! she says yes, i ask why – she says i was emmotional it happens its ok.

    ok fine – breath in breath out. they are crazy but lets have a breather. we all kind of put this aside for a secon and think these psychos are uncontrollable but at this moment we can go along with meeting, and at least for in laws sake have a normal engagement party who knows.

    fast forward 4 hours. its around 11 pm and i had just fell asleep watching a movie, geta phone call and i say in my head its fine ill call that person back tomorrow, then callsagain, so i abruptly wake up and think who is calling so late must be urgent.
    pick up – it’s my mother (gone back to first demeanor – raging bull). shes says as my sister said above, that my dad is ill from all this and having chest pain – so as a doctor i say ok take him to the ER, we can come right now, she says “not that kind of chest pain.”
    of course the convenient kind of chest pain to scare everyone, but not the true kind? insanity
    she then goes on to say she cant make this meeting tomorrow its too much – i said ok but right now the focus is dads health, no? she gets furious and says that is why i am calling you – i have to focus on my husband’s health right now. i said ok – then i say well we dont have to havve meeting, she starts screaming and says she never wanted meeting and it is all because everyone else forced it.
    continues to scream about how all this has affected her and my father’s health and then says – this is too much we can not meet and we can not come to engagement party – hangs up.

    i speak to my sister an we decide we may want to call an ambulance considering my dads history of heart disease, but then also are simultaneously aware that she is just using it as a tactic. my sister calls my mother – and as above my mom repeatsthe same and is also furious – “why did your sister tell you it is an emergency – it is not THAT kind of chest pain.”

    it was a horror movie. classic. perfect.

    And Anita – if there was EVER a way and day to follow your advice – that the only way to survive is to cease contact with these types – it would be now….

    my sister is struggling with the above, and i am trying to figure out how to truly break away.

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