Hi Tee,

I combined the both parts of relationships…

Yes, I can imagine. If you believe that others will hurt you and that you can actually do pretty well alone, then sure, I see why you didn’t want to build relationships, not only romantic but friendships either, if I understood you well? Btw, did you have close friends as a child?

Yes only one but even with him there was different kind of communication mostly we would just play with each other and just talk about crazy ideas and we were both brilliant students.

Yeah, your lack of trust has developed gradually, with your parents (and I guess other adults too, like your grandfather?), in your childhood. And it remained a blueprint for how you view all other relationships. Even if you meet kind and loving people, your core belief (“I cannot trust people”) will be still working in your subconscious and will make you guarded and cautious.

I thought about it and I think it’s that feeling like unconditional love doesn’t exist so they must be need me for something that’s why they’re being nice.etc

Right. That means your intention is pure, and you have no expectations from the person to “pay you back”. Perhaps what you’ve experienced in your childhood is some kind of manipulation/transactionality, either on your own skin or in your family? That people would only help each other if they saw personal gain in it?

I guess I did hear things like that in my teenage like “people are just there for their means” and even I saw things like that in adult life too.

I guess that in that relationship too, you didn’t dare to show your own vulnerability, your own weaknesses, but you (actually both of you) were focusing mostly on her weaknesses, right? Like, she was the “project” that you were working on, and it wasn’t coming along well. And so you were getting frustrated, and she was feeling guilty etc etc.

Yes you put it in the right words. We did take it like a “project”

Even if you’d like to trust her, I think you still don’t trust her. Because the false core belief (“I cannot trust others”, or “Other people will hurt me”) is still active…

At friendship level I do trust lately I found that it’s really easy for me to make friends. I made two friends and much younger than me and both are quite understanding and mature and I’m trying to be more vulnerable with them since they don’t shy away to be vulnerable with me. But when it comes to romantic relationships that’s where trust is no more

Would to “let loose” mean to get “madly” in love, which means you’d become too distracted and not able to function properly?

It seems you believe that if you fall in love, you’ll be too vulnerable, too distressed, not focused enough, and they’ll be able to prevent you from even reaching your goals, your career goals etc. Like, that the person you love will prevent you from reaching your goals and dreams. Could it be it?

 

Kind of yes because I noticed that I always loved hard. I haven’t been taught to love in a soft way. And that’s why it hurts more too. That’s why just another day we were talking and I told my friend it’s better to be in serious relationship after I reach a certain life and career goals that I have.

I am just thinking… betrayal of trust can happen if we open up and show vulnerability, and the other person ridicules us, shames us or uses it against us. Or it can happen if they promise us something and never deliver. And I guess it can also happen if they shame us and criticize us all the time (like your father and my mother did), and we can never trust that they wouldn’t hurt us. I wonder if any of these reasons resonate with you?

Hmm I think “they promise us something and never deliver” this have happened many times in my previous relationship. But later on I told myself some people just don’t change why I’m giving too many chances.

What prompted you to do that?

Because I did started to like her and I got scared that what if I attached to her?

Are you still FWB, if I may ask?

Not really. We just had a meal together, went to the museum and a just cheek kisses.

As in: nothing is wrong with the girl, but you still don’t want it. At least this is what I’m hearing…

And that’s how fear works: it is irrational, it’s not based on our current reality, but on our old wounding. And it overpowers us…

I think yeah we can say that.

I hear what you’re saying, but it actually carries in itself a false belief: that if you focus on your career, you can’t be in a committed relationship. That those two are mutually exclusive. That love and career don’t mix, i.e. that they are in competition with each other. If that were true, then married people, or people in committed relationships, wouldn’t be able to have successful careers at all.

You do have a good point but where I come from it’s like a mindset like mostly on guys have the pressure to do something for women they don’t have high hopes or put pressure to be something like yeah she can always find a rich husband but a for a guy, he got to be something good. I do believe in equality but it’s the environment around me.

Actually, it might be a good exercise to journal about this: “If I fall in love, then….” Write down everything that comes to mind. What would you lose, or what kind of setbacks you believe you would experience if you fell in love. Maybe it will help you to get to the bottom of your fear…

Ohh that’s very good idea, Thanks! I’ll take time for this and write down and see what comes in my mind.

Hey Tee,
How you been doing? Feeling better?

Sorry for the late reply, I’ve been busy with onboarding process and meetings and I’m actually quite more confident now than before. Team seems really supportive, Even my manager.

I’ve watched the video of “How to stop comparing yourself with others” as you suggested and it’s definitely insightful. I was mainly worried about the competition and that’s why I had scarcity mindset, Maybe still a little.
I’ve also understood  that my goal is not to being better than everyone and somewhere my subconscious does believed that.
But because of this video and like you also told me in a recent post I am in touch with myself so I’m not comparing myself to others like I did before…

I also wanted to share a thing that I read on my feed few days ago and it was according to this thread title, Like why I feel like time is passing too fast and one of the reason is even though I was longing for novelty there was no novelty. But now there is. and another thing is being in the present moment I was constantly  anxious/worried about the future if I’d be able to achieve my goals and that constant anxiety of what if I fail.

I mean, it’s okay to plan and think about what needs to be done next, but if you approach it with this pressure and already feeling like a failure (my mind is being very doubtful about if I’ll be able to do those things), you are in the “I am not good enough” mindset. “I am a failure” mindset. And the inner critic has stolen your success!

That’s the thing!  I do feel pressure that there are lot of choices and then my head goes go only for the best one, I kind of need to tell myself time to time that I’m strong enough I faced lot of things, so just not be worried about taking the wrong decision. because you know taking any decision also takes up lot of energy and give us anxiety.

There is a saying in the Bible “Let no man take your crown”. Your inner critic is trying to take away your crown: your victory, your success, your achievements…. Please be aware of that, be aware of this tendency to minimize your successes and achievements, and to criticize yourself for not achieving even more.

That’s a good saying. And I was thinking like how much I’m underestimating myself most of the time because of (maybe low self esteem). In my life I can count lot of successes from all these years but yet what I’m remembering? not those. I’m remembering what things I did wrong. and why it is like that we don’t feel joy longer for our successes but we feel pain for even smaller failure for extended periods?

Hola Tee,

Did you feel some competition with him? Did your father compare you to him? Because I was thinking that perhaps one of the reasons you didn’t have many friends is that your father stressed competition, he was always comparing you to other kids, and perhaps that’s why you didn’t like them or you felt resentment towards them?

Well Since Primary school to High School I was a top student. So not really competition there and as soon as I got in college and more like nearly adult-teenage era I started seeing competition. And it was so bad like I felt all at once and started studying something just because it was considered “In Demand” But I had no interest and on top of that I felt competition from the classmates like they knew what they’re doing and also topping the class. And for the first time ever I had less marks in 2 subjects in my 1^st semester. And failed in math in 2^nd semester, And Even though I knew that I didn’t gave it my all it felt so bad.. Yet still I continued for 4 semester and then decided to leave the collage and directly start working. Because even though my father and grandfather didn’t told me on the face I did knew they were disappointed because they felt like we are paying your for your living and college in the city and you’re not giving us the “results”. And the thing is that I would be able to ask my father like I don’t like this degree and I want to do another degree that I like but I didn’t wanted to be burden at all. So I started working and living on my own. First they said no you won’t be able to do it but after a month or so they agreed with me because I told them little later. There has been many times I had to lie to my family just for example when I didn’t had a job I didn’t said anything to my family for months. And even helped them financially even though it put me in debt.

Right, because the love you’ve experienced from your father was very conditional. He only showed you love when you were the best in class – everything else was not good enough. Whenever you made a mistake (like when handing him the wrong tool), he didn’t show you love. So… his love was very conditional.

I’d say your mom’s love was limited, same as my father’s, because they didn’t protect us. They gaslighted us and minimized the problem. That too wasn’t a strong, unquestionable love, the kind of love you can really trust.

Because if I understood well, your mom showed you love and tenderness when you could forgive your father and be “mature” about it, but she was sad and worried when you couldn’t, right? In a way, she was sending you the message that you are only acceptable if you forgive and endure your father’s abuse… (I am not claiming this, please correct me if I am wrong).

Yes it was may be conditional even though all I thought parents love is always unconditional towards their children but I guess there always some expectations. But It did impacted my emotional patterns like for giving or even accepting love.
Yeah about my mom that maybe right and it kinda have adverse effect too. With pros and cons. I don’t get angry and react harshly at the moment also turned out to be very forgiving nature, but as a cons I don’t raise my voice when I should, which is really important thing in career you know

I guess I did hear things like that in my teenage like “people are just there for their means”

Did your parents use to say that?

My grandfather preciously. My grandfather was like in village head group. So he seen lot of people in lot of situations. He did helped lot of people though. But after a while he be like “people are there for their means” when they forget.
And the thing is it impacted me somehow but not on a deeper level. I still believe I should help people if I can and don’t expect anything from them in return. Even gratitude. I’m doing it just because I can and I want to. Even though I been around colleagues who thought that uplifting others means they would stay in lower class

If we get attached, and the person leaves us or betrays us, it hurts more.

Yeah I guess the one of my fear too, and like hurt how many more times until find the right person? Seems scary

For example, if we felt conditionally loved, we may believe that our partner will only love us if we earn enough money. Or they will only love us if we are perfect, if we never show any weakness.

Hmm that’s right but don’t you think it should be something like in levels? Eg. Like I can’t expect my partner to focus on their fitness if I myself is lazy. And I know normally money shouldn’t be the scale but from the current generation it is somewhat seen respectable. Because it shows hmm this guys knows his financial and he can provide. It’s kinda natural instinct for them.

Does loving hard mean to work hard on the relationship? To have a relationship which feels like a project?

Maybe loving hard also means that you need to work hard to be lovable? That you need to be successful, so she would love you (she can always find a rich husband but a for a guy, he got to be something good)?

Kind of yes I guess like trying to perfecting the relationship and my partner too. Like I would force her to sleep on time because less sleep would affect her mood next day. I always tried to surprise her, write for her and make her happy and noted even little things that would make cause her pain. And even accepted lot of things that I wouldn’t usually accept. Like no video calling for a very long time and just text. So yeah I was kind of perfectionist towards her. But another thing is I didn’t do it to impress her. But I felt I wanted to do it because I cared for her a lot.

Ciao Tee,

Ahh, right now my back pain has flared up again for no apparent reason, so I am not happy about it and kind of confused. My worry and anxiety want to creep in, but I am managing to keep them at bay. It’s like I see the emotion coming, like wanting to breaking down and cry, but I don’t let it take over. I stop myself from going down that path again… So we’ll see. It’s challenging, but I don’t feel totally hopeless and depressed, like last year, for example.

You’re quite emotionally strong and I admire your resilience to keep moving forward and managing this health anxiety. I hope it pays off.

Yeah, because you’ve been hearing all your childhood (and beyond) “look at him, why can’t you do better”. And you were only awarded for being the best in class – anything else was “not good enough”. So yeah, that’s the programming you grew up with. No wonder it led you to comparing yourself to others, wanting to compete, always feeling worse than others.

Yes that’s true. But let me tell you something, just today I went to visit kindergarten with my sister and cousin, It’s mainly health checkup day for kids. But even there what I see? Comparison. Literally even for their body not just their smartness. And I felt the same, it wasn’t only my parents, environment around me did play a big part as well.  And I think it’s a huge societal issue, people support people who’s already capable but doesn’t want lift other’s up when they don’t see a potential in them. How pitiful world is turning into??

It’s good to hear that you can stay in the present moment more, without the need to project into the future what you should achieve, and then immediately worrying that you’ll fail. That was really exhausting!

I am happy you can stay in the present moment more, and appreciate what you’ve achieved so far. You may want to give yourself an imaginary (or real 🙂 ) pat on the back, because you have achieved a lot. Good that you are slowly recognizing it:

Haha yeah I did gave a pat the back. But still learning I’ve found out this day and age being in the present is one of the hardest thing to do

Yes, absolutely! Starting from facing the lion at the country road 🙂 to being locked down in a container at an industrial complex, to living on your own since 16 years old, to finishing your degree and working in parallel, to being the youngest manager at your previous workplace, to many other successes… So yes, SereneWolf, you are incredibly resilient, and resourceful, I’d say!

Thanks for the reminder! I appreciate it. But just today I have this uneasy feeling like fr what the heck do I actually want from life? I took a pen and journal notebook but still couldn’t figure out

Because of the same reason as above: because we were not praised for our achievements, but were punished for even the smallest mistake. And that hurt a lot…

Yes that’s why even good and proud moments feels dull sometimes

Hi Tee,

How are you doing?

I am glad your grandfather’s belief (that people are self-centered and don’t genuinely care about others) hasn’t affected you too much. And that you still choose to help others, rather than only look for your own self-interest. You are a kind and generous person, SereneWolf, even if you were exposed to this kind of messaging…

Yes that’s what I try to tell my inner self like no matter what I’ve been through I didn’t lose hope in humanity and connections. Then have some love for yourself.

Okay, so you were top of the class in your elementary and high school. But when you chose a college which you had no interest in (you chose it only because it was “in demand”, promising good career opportunities and a good salary, I suspect), your grades started getting worse, and you even failed in math. Basically, when you forced yourself to do something you don’t love, you immediately did worse.

Yes I do think it’s like that I don’t perform good if I’m not attached to it emotionally. But It was also because of my people pleasing behaviour, Like I didn’t wanted to disappoint my parents. But nonetheless later on I did, After 4 semester (2 Years) I put a stop to that college.

I think it goes to show that it is very important for you to do what you love and what is aligned with your values – because that’s where you can really thrive. I guess when you later chose another college, it was something you liked better and which is more aligned with you interests and preferences? And it has now lead you to a job which you really like (how it is going btw? have you finished with onboarding?

Actually after that my focus wasn’t just on the college, But also the work that I was doing. Like not exactly the same but I wanted to have the more flexible program that includes my interest. And luckily I passed, tbh I didn’t had to do hard work for my bachelor’s.

Now the Master’s would be more important because that’s for the current thing that I’m doing or sector wide, Like Sustainability or IT. But I’m not rushing.

I’m finished with my onboarding, It wasn’t that long, But I’m still learning their ways, I really like that they’re not rigid about certain ways If I like something my way I can do it that way. But they’re humble enough to show like here’s what we think is the most efficient way.

And I’m kinda proud of myself since They already gave me an assistant (She’s also intern doing Masters in sustainability) in just 2^nd week because during the talk they didn’t say I’d have manage anyone. But they trust me enough even taking on consulting projects. So my work is more diverse towards Product analytics and Consulting side as well. And another cool thing we’re all in different time zones. That means no unnecessary meetings.

Maybe your parents told you they love you and that they do everything in your best interest (my mother certainly told me that), but it doesn’t mean it was like that in practice. If I got a B (instead of an A), my mother was displeased with me and would condemn me for not studying hard enough. Having all A’s was taken for granted (I was never praised for being an excellent pupil), but even the slightest “slip” was heavily criticized. So her love wasn’t unconditional. I didn’t feel loved in those moments, I felt rejected.

I guess you’ve experienced something similar with your father: if you were top in class, he was pleased with you and would buy you presents. If you were not the first, but still excellent, he was displeased with you, right? I guess this taught you that you have to always be the best, otherwise your father won’t be proud of you. His love and validation were very conditional. Basically sending you a message “I will only love you and approve of you if you are perfect. Anything short of that is not good enough.”

Yes it was similar with me. And talking about it it makes me remember this point. Is this why I’m also not impressed with anyone’s educational qualities now? Or just not impressed with anything that much. Like huh. Good. So what? Am I becoming my father? 😂

Perhaps it taught you that you need to be perfect to be loved?

Something just occurred to me: your father expected that you be perfect in terms of academic achievements and career success. Whereas your mother expected you to control your emotions perfectly. To always put on a happy face and never show that something is bothering you.

So they both expected perfection from you, only in different areas. You couldn’t be totally yourself with neither of them, and I think that’s why you have trust issues in relationships.

You said:

Kind of yes I guess like trying to perfecting the relationship and my partner too.

You believe you need to work hard on yourself, because you are not good enough as you are. That’s your father’s conditioning: You need to be perfect (excelling in many things) to be loved and valued.

And then you also want to perfect your partner too. Your inner critic is critical not only of yourself, but of your partner too. We’ve already talked about it before. With your previous girlfriend, you got into a dynamic of trying to perfect her. The focus was on her and her flaws. And I think it prevented you from showing her your “imperfect” self, your vulnerable, less than perfect, and yet totally lovable self.

 

Ohh right a very insightful point indeed! I think I’ve mentioned in the start that I was a perfectionist and maybe still am in one or another ways.. My drive to work hard on myself is still moderately high. As well as excelling in many things. And It’s also true I still don’t feel good enough which is impacting my self esteem

And Yes I’m trying to be vulnerable with friends, Just a recent example, My friend’s friend reached out to me and wanted talk even though another friend told me how she is opposite of what I like, She smokes, she’s dramatic and her anger is always on the edge. But I didn’t said no. I saw it from a different perspective this time we talked till 2am. I tried to understood why she’s the way she is and I noticed that it’s just her coping mechanisms, At heart she’s kind and loving woman. Not just her but most of our generation have bad habits and mental heath just because they feel alone and not loved.

(The reason why you were afraid to show vulnerability could be because of your mother’s expectation to never show your emotionally distressed, raw, “immature” self.)

You are asking:

hurt how many more times until find the right person? Seems scary

Hm… it’s not really about finding the right person. Because you admitted that there was nothing really wrong with your most recent girlfriend, and yet you didn’t want the relationship. You backed off because for you, it’s scary, intimate relationships are scary…

And I think it’s because you believe you need to be perfect, both in terms of career/money earning ability (your father’s conditioning), and emotional “maturity” and strength (your mother’s conditioning).

And that IS scary!

If you believe that intimate relationship requires total perfection, of course it is intimidating. And hard work. And impossible to achieve.

But what if it only took for you to show up as you are? And let her show up as she is? Nothing more than that… no hard work, no pressure, no urge to perfect yourself (or her)…. Just letting yourself be, with all your good and bad sides? Because you are good enough…

What do you think? About adopting a new blueprint/new vision for an intimate relationship?

 

Haha I’m actually surprised with your ability to use words on point, But you’re right and I understand your point. I’m trying to be my true self and showing the vulnerability. I don’t think I need to be perfect 100% but yeah not sure for now it’s the healthy drive to strive or still a perfectionist inside me. Also I’m not judgy like I used to be. Before I’d be like hmm this person and labels them now I try to understand first and I don’t try to fix them or at least urge to fix them is gone.

Hola Tee,

thanks, I am fine, my back is better again, so I feel good. Hoping that it will last… (a praying hands emoji)

Yaay! I hope it’s still getting better?

That’s fantastic, SereneWolf, and it means so much! That they give you the freedom to do it your way, if you find it better. So it’s not like receiving top-down orders, which you need to follow, but they give you a degree of freedom and independence. Which is exactly what you cherish, isn’t it?

Yes Exactly, and I’m good at making various processes much more efficient so now more time on my hands and things get easy for them as well 😌

Yeah, I know what you mean. They wanted you to study in that field, and you wanted to please them. You tried, but it wasn’t working out. It’s good that you decided to put a stop on it eventually. Even if it meant hard decisions, like getting a job and supporting yourself.

But you’ve managed to make up for it all: you’ve earned your Bachelor’s and now you’re doing a Masters in the field you like. So it all turned out well…

Yes and even after all this I know that I’ve been through a lot I managed lot obstacles in the past and I’ve been very resilient. Yet still kinda this empty feeling in my chest of not good enough or whatever it is

Hehe, well, your inner critic is very similar to your father. It is your father’s internalized voice. But you know, it’s a good sign that you can be proud of yourself (you just said you’re proud of getting an assistant). It’s a sign that your inner critic couldn’t spoil the party – couldn’t tell you “so what?”, or “big deal”. Seems you are getting out of its grip, which is a very good development!

Haha I really hope I’m getting out of that grip. Like It’s been really hard for me get impressed with something or it’s my dopamine levels?

Okay…. was it like a date? I must admit, it got me worried a little that now you’ll go into the opposite extreme of being open and receptive to everyone, without discernment. And kind of “try to understand” this girl, who might have anger issues… which might not be the best predictor for a healthy relationship. I mean, in case you are considering dating her…

Sorry if I am preaching, I just wanted to say that you don’t need to like everybody, you don’t need to suddenly drop all judgment. In fact, the ideal would be not to be judgmental, but to still have discernment. Anyway, I felt the need to mention it, just in case 🙂

Haha no, It wasn’t like a date, But thanks for the heads up though, Even though at first it did seem like so, Because she did said some things like that. Like how good I am and I’m the greenest flag she ever met but I told her my relationship situation. So after that she was talking about her fears and work life etc.

But I am thinking about going on dates though. It’s been like more than a month that I’m at my hometown. So it’s time to move, I’ll move to another city with better weather in May.

Good to hear that you don’t have the urge to fix the person. You can simply observe and see whether they are (in this case, whether she is) compatible. If you like her and don’t feel like changing anything major on her, that’s a good sign.

Yup no urge to fix. I wasn’t even suggesting her what to do. But yeah, she’s definitely not someone that I’d like for a relationship. And She smokes so I’d think twice to even procced anything casual with her.

Was the doctor comparing the kids? Was he/she shaming those who are e.g. shorter and skinnier?

There was a nurse, She was comparing. They have to measure weight and height of the kids and note those things down. And two brothers was really overweight that the weight scale wasn’t enough for them so she made fun of them and all the kids were laughing at them. I got so much angry but I didn’t want to disrespect a woman inside a hospital there so I controlled myself and stayed calm.

It seems to me that this event (of kids being compared and possibly shamed?) re-opened a wound in you: that of being compared to others, not just by your parents but the entire society (it wasn’t only my parents, environment around me did play a big part as well. And I think it’s a huge societal issue).

And this maybe triggered a feeling of helplessness? Which made you ask yourself: What do I event want from life?

Because my guess is that the pain of being compared to others, which you re-experienced today, made you slip into the old false belief, which might go something like “There is no point in trying, I’ll never be good enough anyway”. And then in that state of hopelessness, you started questioning what you even want from life, because you suddenly felt weak to go for your dreams… Is this what perhaps happened?

I guess yeah maybe that’s what happened, I need to feel excitement for life again, Because there are just so many fascinating things out there

Yes, because the core wound (of not feeling good enough) is still there…

You sure, in the long run this wound heals? Or it doesn’t? And what would be the most effective thing for this? Because this generational trauma is starting to take toll on me.