Dear flyby:

Figuring out what motivates people: first thing is to examine what we assume motivates a person in our lives and remove that assumption, think about other possibilities. We jump to conclusions, assuming we know. In the first ever good therapy I attended five years ago, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) with lots of Mindfulness skills taught, I learned to evaluate thoughts for the truth or lack of. I found out that we, people, assume so much that is not true. CBT is a scientific approach to understanding what is really going on.

Also in therapy I learned the value of asking people questions and evaluating the answers. Figuring out reality is something else. Are you familiar with CBT?

You wrote above that you gave up trying to figure him out. Then you wrote that you are trying to figure out what was making him keep you within arms reach. Do you want to try to figure the latter out here?

anita

Dear flyby:

Your Master Degree is is Cognitive Neuroscience? That is very impressive!

I went back to previous posts, first I think were in July of last year. I was looking for information on what this 20 year on and off again man did to you, what hurtful things he did and I found nothing. You expressed that he hurt you but I couldn’t find what it was that he did that was abusive or wrong.

If you would like to examine this with me, and I am an ex CBT client/ patient, not a psychotherapist. If you would like to examine this with me in the context of self help, please let me know. If you would, can you share what it is that he actually said and done to you that was hurtful and wrong?

anita

Dear flyby:

You are currently 35, I understand. You had a 20 year on and off relationship with this man. So the relationship started when you were 15? You grew up with him, you wrote, had the same friends. During these 20 years you had one long term relationship and a few others. At some point he moved to NYC and sometime later you moved there too, not so to be with him, but it so happened. You wrote that his selfish behavior started in NYC. As teenagers you shared friends but in NYC he spent time with you in his apartment and did not mix you and his friends. I hope I got it right so far. You wrote that you believe he was a bad person but at times you saw progress, him trying to improve but each time he improved, it didn’t last long. You think that maybe you represented shame and guilt for him.

You wrote on this thread that you had faith in him loving you because no matter what you kept getting back together. Above though you wrote that he refused to listen when you asked him to stay away so many times before.

Twenty years is a long, long time. And it was on and many times, it was off. Starting at teenage years and now in mid thirties, both having relationship elsewhere during that time. It would be hard to follow the on and off story of all those years.

One point you made is that his selfish behavior started in NYC. Does that mean that the list above, 1-8 applies to NYC and on? When did you move to NYC: how many years ago?

The friends he kept you away from in NYC are not the same friends where you grew up, correct? Did he tell you a about those friends? What did you know about those friends or … how did you know anything about them. who they were..? Did he have family in NYC? Did you meet his family before NYC… so many questions…

anita

Dear flyby:

The problematic relationship with him (where the list of 1-8 is relevant to) started when you were 25 (and he was 26) in NYC. For the first 3 years of this NYC relationship he had another girlfriend and you were “the other woman”-

Am I correct: three years?

This would explain his motivation for #2, 4 and maybe #5 on your list above.

My thoughts at this point: if this correct, he was/ is not a decent man, to be having an intimate physical relationship with two women at the same time, hiding this fact from one or the two of you.

And it is also true, that you either knew of the other woman, or, being the intelligent woman that you are, could have known by the suspicious nature of his behavior (#2, 4 and maybe #5). Either way, you accepted your position in his life. By accepting these (#2 and 4, at the least), you justified, in his mind, his own disrespect of you.

And so, disrespecting you, not recognizing your worth and value, this would explain all the other items on your list, including not respecting the boundaries you set with him.

There is a lot more to this, to the concept of being in an intimate relationship with a person who disrespects you, who doesn’t think of you as valuable, a whole lot more. If you agree, this is definitely something to work on in the therapy you are about to have.

If you agree with the principle here, I would like to communicate with you further about this, as I was with people who disrespected me terribly myself, in the past, and having this personal experience can make it possible for you and I to help each other understand more, see more what needs to be seen.

anita

* Dear jim: Can you start a new thread (or bring up an old one that already exists)? I would like to reply to you there and have this thread dedicated to the original poster.
anita

Dear flyby:

Regarding your last point: if it is possible for people who treat (you/ me/ another) poorly to “let go of all that guilt”-

This is my experience and understanding: when a person, X, does not value Y, thing, animal or person, X feels no guilt over treating Y poorly. When you, flyby, don’t value a piece of cake, maybe because it is old or unhealthy, then you will throw it in the garbage. On the other hand, if someone you really like gave you a freshly made piece of cake, a small piece made with care, you won’t throw it in the garbage, would you? Once you threw the first piece of cake in the garbage, you are not likely to feel guilt. But if by accident the second piece of cake falls to the ground and gets mixed with dirt, you will feel guilty or badly. Because you valued the second piece of cake.

Same with people. If X values Y, and treats Y poorly, becoming aware of the treatment later, then X will feel guilty. If X doesn’t value Y, and treats Y poorly, well… it is what you do when you don’t value something.

Only more …evolved, decent people understand that people have inherent value, a humane worth that shouldn’t be disrespected. For a whole lot of people, this is not so.

Whenever X hurts Y intentionally- or unintentionally but repeatedly, not paying attention to Y hurting- it means X does not value Y.

Regarding earlier points in your last post, later perhaps. For now, what do you think about what I wrote so far here?

anita

Dear flyby:

It is my certain belief that the fact that X treats Y poorly it is not an indication that Y is lacking value. This is most important for me to deliver to you, this conviction of mine.

X treats Y poorly because X is not a decent person. As the indecent person that X is, he values people who represent for him what he does value. And this is the point: X values some things, for example money. So if Z has lots of money, X will value Z. If W is financially broke, X will not value W.

X may value being rejected because as a child (this is an example, throwing possibilities around), X was rejected by his mother and his lifetime aim has been to please a difficult to please woman, representing his mother. So X will value a woman who gives him little to no attention and will not value a woman that is very available to him.

The list of what X may value can go on and on, and so he values the person who carries that value that he holds in high esteem, money, hard-to-please, good looks, certain nationality or race, a last name, someone submissive, someone aggressive, etc. etc.

If Y devalues herself, X might like it very much and when Y stands up for herself, X may leave as X values shyness, “I am less than you” stance.

And depends who is available. Most people are still looking for someone, so depending on what woman is available, what is on the menu, what is available. Choice then is limited to what is available.

What do you think?

anita