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March 26, 2016 at 7:07 am #100115AnonymousInactive
“No no Anita, that isn’t correct. I’m sorry, I guess I expressed myself poorly. I did not mean to say that she told her family everything or that her father threatened to call the police. All that is merely guesswork from my side, what might happen if they find out. Her family is decent, sweet and wonderful and so is she. I mean anyone’s family will feel that I’m a bad and hurtful person if they see my bad words without knowing the entire context, that’s what I mean. She has nothing to do with this. Of course she did not tell anyone, not even our closest friends about how much I hurt her. In fact when asked, she always speaks highest praise for me, that’s what everyone said. They’re genuinely in admiration of the bond both of us share, they had very little idea of the fights we had until I confessed to a few of them. In fact even after this recent fight, she told nobody about the bad words I said to her, she only said that she’s upset due to the fact that she considered me a brother and I developed these feelings for her.
And most definitely she does not have any ill or resentful feelings towards me. In fact she has every right to, but she doesn’t. She always speaks well of me, still prays for my good health and studies, I know that. She never once brought up the issue of our past fights despite having every opportunity, always insisting that she knows I’m a good person and we should forget the past and focus on maintaining our bond. I know that cutting off contact after knowing my feelings is kind of an overreaction, but we should look from her perspective too. She’s always been a very shy and introverted girl who never liked interacting with boys, I was an exception as we slowly developed a very close bond and she felt I’ll always love her as an elder brother. Naturally she felt betrayed that the one boy she loved so much platonically, developed the very kind of feelings she dreads as she dislikes romantic relations and all in general. I empathize with her and I wish I had revealed my feelings more tactfully, instead of this disastrous manner.
I don’t want to sound dramatic, I know I’m inexperienced but I know I’ll never feel the way I do for her, for anyone else. She has my loyalty and my love forever, she’s the one I wish to be with from my heart. That still comes much later; first, I want to make up for hurting her and reunite with her at least as friends first.
Yes, I know these wrong teachings at my home of avoiding self-blame and criticism are what could be causing this problem. I dunno how to root it out now, though I am accepting my fault wherever I must.”
Well if this is the case Ravi, then I still wish you two nothing but love, happiness, peace and light throughout your journey and also wish you a very beautiful marriage and life together.
M.
March 26, 2016 at 7:17 am #100118ravi_zimmerfanParticipantElle, this was actually the first time she stopped talking to me. Previously, no matter how much she was hurt, she never cut contact or said even a word against me (even now, she didn’t other than “you’re playing with my emotions”… the only thing she ever said to this day). Let me tell exactly what was the last fight we had (not even a fight; it was one-sided with me being the foul-mouthed aggressor).
Jerry – Admit it, you have romantic feelings for me.
Me – No, I don’t. I consider you my sister.
Jerry – The kind of things you’ve been saying to me, does one say to family? Do you keep saying “you’re always in my heart, you’re my dearest parents” to your parents, for example?
Me – Let’s leave my parents out of this, please.
Jerry – Then why do you keep dragging my cousin brother into this topic?
Me – Did I ever insult your dear cousin? If you want to abuse my parents, don’t worry; my mother is already suffering from a disease that might cause her death in a few years. You’ll get your wish sooner than you expect. Kindly shut your filthy mouth now; if you want my loved ones to die of c@nc3r, go wish for it alone and not in front of me. Whatever ill you are wishing, may you bear the fruits of it. May your tongue rot for wishing them ill. My fault to love a *censored* like you. Goodbye!And after this, she sent me this message via someone – “Please tell him if possible that I never wished ill for his parents or family. I thought my message was clear, but still sorry if he felt bad. Though he hurt me with the bad words he used, I’ll forever pray for him and wish him well.”
It hurt me a lot to rewrite that message. But I cut nothing out. I just want to show, how extreme and uncalled for my reaction was when she said nothing at all to warrant such a response. And this happened for almost the 1000th time by now. I treat even other people in this manner at times. It’s a psychological problem of mine, and I hurt innocent people and loved ones due to it. I’m not exaggerating when I say there isn’t a girl like her in this universe, to put up with my vicious behaviour and still love and respect me so much.
Thanks for your advice and good wishes. Means a lot to me. 🙂
March 26, 2016 at 7:21 am #100120ravi_zimmerfanParticipantI’m sorry Anita; I didn’t notice the post wasn’t by you (was indeed wondering as I knew you know about her family. My bad habit of haste). I agree; the blame-throwing part is something possibly bred into me from family. But I do not understand why it keeps happening though here, in this case I am accepting my fault of ill treating Jerry and wishing to make up for it. I don’t know then why the voice tries to push me as blameless. I always thought I did not have an ego… but isn’t this the classical sign of a huge one?
Do read that above part where I posted the bad things I said to Jerry. All the more reason why I no longer consider myself a good or respectable person.
March 26, 2016 at 7:34 am #100121AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
Although this thread has been mostly a correspondence between you and me, tiny buddha is a public forum. So it is a good idea to always notice who is posting a reply before assuming it is any one person.
Reading the above correspondence with Jerry is sickening to me. It really is vile. My goodness, she said nothing remotely negative about your family and you went crazy! My goodness, Ravi, you were so off from what was real in that correspondence with her. To think that such happened many times before… I have no idea why she kept contact with you as long as she did, and if she posted here, I would have advised her to cut contact with you immediately.
And at the same time I am writing this, I will also write the following while not contradicting myself: you are not a bad person now. You were a bad person at the time you exercised that bad behavior in that correspondence with Jerry and in the others.
You are troubled by your behavior and you desperately want to change it. You wanted that for a long time and failed. But you want to because finally Jerry stopped communicating with you. Finally you are suffering a painful consequence of your behavior and you want to change it.
My efforts are to help you change this behavior by gaining more insight into its origin, its birth, so to speak, by suggesting you assert yourself with all the people in your life and take charge of your life the best you can.
Regarding gaining more insight, can you think about the boy who wanted his coin back? Do you remember if you felt angry at him for wanting his coin back and giving it back to him? Your grandmother wished he would die with his coin- a very unfair, very unreasonable and extreme wish, and it reminds me of the unfair, unreasonable and extreme wishes you expressed to Jerry.
When you wrote to Jerry: “shut your filthy mouth now…Whatever ill you are wishing, may you bear the fruits of it. May your tongue rot…” This is very similar to your grandmother wishing the boy will die with his coin, an extreme, way over the top, way way over the top over-reaction. What do you think?
anita
March 26, 2016 at 7:54 am #100124ravi_zimmerfanParticipantI’ll keep that in mind, yes. Sorry again.
Vile is really an understatement to what my message is. It’s not human. This is just what I was saying/thinking… if her family ever saw these messages I sent to her, what would he think of me? Would they not feel I am just another of the cyber monsters who pollute Internet boards? Would her father ever even think of letting us be in contact again, let alone what we discussed? Even my friends were so disgusted after this and one of them did not talk to me for long. I kept saying to her, I hurt you and don’t deserve to be with you. She always replied – “you do deserve to be with me, because I know the good in you and otherwise I wouldn’t still be here. I just want you to promise me to change and never say such things again.” Is there even a word for how beautiful her heart is? How innocent, kind, loving and faithful her soul is?
I was reading the “ghosting” topic on our forum here and I know I did that as well. I ask myself for one good reason why I still deserve to be with a girl like her… and I hear nothing but a ringing silence. My heart doesn’t even feel that she must forgive me now. I feel within that it’s best for her to go away from a vicious monster like me and be with people who’ll love and care for her, never hurt her the way I did. She kept saying, “please don’t be like this, it depresses me, everyone in my family knows I’m sensitive and nobody ever treated me like this”, and yet she stayed with me and bore all my viciousness without comment until finally I crossed the limits. I know I cannot live without her… and yet, can anybody who sees this ugliness ever feel that I love her? Is it not utter selfishness on my part to still pray for her to come back to me, despite all that I did to her? Thinking all this I just wish I had a cyanide pill or something in handy, these three weeks. I truly am sick of what I am, you can see why.
My grandma actually had a grudge against that boy because in one of the previous classes, his mom used to be the class teacher and for some reason (jealousy or sadism, whatever) kept beating me up for minor reasons and a few times, he unnecessarily told on me to her. Still, I agree it was an extreme reaction from my grandma to talk of him dying and all. Could it be genetic? It truly does make me sick in every way.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 8 months ago by ravi_zimmerfan.
- This reply was modified 8 years, 8 months ago by ravi_zimmerfan.
March 26, 2016 at 8:13 am #100128AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
No, your vile behavior with Jerry is not genetic. Its causes are environmental, what you were taught and shown as a child. Genetically every single person is born with the … predisposition to get scared, and hurt, and angry… every single person is born with the genetic condition of getting angry. What happens with this genetic inheritance we are all born with is dependent on environmental factors.
I am not recommending you to pursue Jerry at this point because I have no reason to think that you will no longer display that abusive behavior you displayed with her so many times. I know you are highly motivated to not display this behavior. I know that her not having contact with you is a strong motivating factor (She has done the right thing to stop contact).
I hope your behavior when angry will indeed change. And then I wish, as in making a wish, that you and her will get together once you are no longer abusive simply because you want it so badly.
If her father read the above correspondence, and he is a sane, reasonable person, I imagine he would be very unhappy. Fact is, you did it, it is on record on Facebook, I suppose, and you can’t undo it.
You did it… and you can’t undo it.
Got to accept this fact because you can’t change it. Here are more things to accept:
Jerry may not contact you again. She may not believe in you again. Some reasonable people will look at such a correspondence and conclude: why get involved with someone with this problem, too painful, too unpleasant to say the least.
You can’t change any of this. So what are you going to do?
Oh, there is so much you can change. Only not the things above. But if you get busy with all that you can change, you will be very busy. So I hope that soon enough, maybe even today, you get unstuck from focusing on what you cannot change, and focus on what you can change.
At one point, you will have to look more into the origin of your out of control, exaggerated expressions of anger. So that you understand what “makes you tick” – what fuels that rage. You have to, when you are ready and willing. Let me know when that may be.
anita
March 26, 2016 at 8:23 am #100130ravi_zimmerfanParticipantYou said it rightly, Anita. Fact remains that it weren’t for Jerry, I would not even be here. The only reason I want to change is for her. Otherwise, life simply went on for me without caring what anyone thought of me. After all, even now when I confessed to my parents that I hurt a loved one very badly, my mom says – “A darling little boy like you can’t hurt a fly. That person must be taking advantage of your innocence.” Even one of my friends, after knowing this, kept insisting I’m a good person and was “just angry”, until I pressed her to be honest and she admitted I was disgusting. When people around me work hard to lay all blame off me, why would I have noticed anything until such a monstrosity happened? The fact that it happened many times and despite wanting to change, I didn’t, shows that I did not care enough. That’s just the harsh truth. (Though not trying to lessen my blame, but this was the only time I said something directly against her. Other times were all like ‘I know I’m bad, you don’t like me, I hope I die.’ Not that it’s any less bad.)
I know the truth. I just know that if she truly leaves me, I don’t have any motivation to continue my pursuit either. I know people will keep saying, “there are things more important in life, she’s not everything”, but I cannot let go of her. Especially because you know how wonderful she is and it’s all my fault for this situation. I know I most definitely do not deserve to be even back with her as a friend without making significant progress in changing myself. I do have enough faith in our bond to feel that we still can be back, at least one last time. I pray it happens and nothing bad ever happens between us again. It’s my only wish and the only reason I am here hoping to change myself and be back with her when the time is right.
March 26, 2016 at 8:43 am #100132AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
When I read what your mother said: “A darling little boy like you can’t hurt a fly. That person must be taking advantage of your innocence.” I feel sickened too. I think I feel as sickened as when i read your correspondence with Jerry above. Maybe even more sickened because such a teaching on your mother’s part created that correspondence with Jerry. As children we are taught and taught effectively because we are so young and we just don’t know any different than what we are taught. It is not the child’s fault for learning what the child is taught. Your vile correspondence with Jerry indicates you were a good student of your mother.
Once you realize this, you have to change your understanding, to undo the teaching. It is very, very difficult to undo a teaching of such an early age. It is not only that you were so young when taught this, but you were taught so by your mother and many times over. As you know repetition increase the effectiveness of a teaching.
So it is difficult work to undo such teaching.
Be patient with yourself because even though you are now responsible for changing your behavior, you are not responsible for this behavior being taught to you. It is not your doing that your mother and grandmother taught you that you are never wrong and it is always someone else fault.
Be a bit gentle with yourself. Being gentle with yourself is the condition for you undoing that vile teaching and changing your behavior.
Again: if you want to change your behavior, you have to employ a gentle and patient attitude with yourself. It has to be done. So, please change your attitude and let go of the anger toward yourself, be gentle and kind to yourself.
anita
March 26, 2016 at 8:55 am #100133ravi_zimmerfanParticipantThis is indeed very true. Right now I have been trying to recall even a single instance when my family ever blamed me for something wrong I did at school or elsewhere. The only incidents I can recall are… not studying well enough, not following their wishes, that painful “I wish I have a son for a doctor in my next life” drama I mentioned earlier. I don’t think they ever told me to correct my behaviour towards others. Even if any teacher or student ever said a word against me in school, they immediately went there to fight with them without even waiting to fully know the situation. I myself got so tired of this that I stopped telling them about school incidents soon after. Like if I failed to do my homework and the teacher made me stand outside the class, I can never imagine my family even reprimanding me for not doing my work and ensuring I did it, rather they’d lament over the extreme torture my delicate legs had to endure for those 30 minutes.
I have always accepted that this kind of behaviour – being angry, not having a filter over my mouth and saying awful and abusive things is wrong. I hated myself for it, I felt seriously bad for Jerry and more than once resolved to never do it again and make her as happy as I could. I did succeed in making her happy too but such incidents occurred again periodically too. I just don’t know why I’m not able to stop myself when something “ticks” me off (in this case, a perceived insult towards family). That “inner voice” kept saying – “yes, it is an insult! If you try to ignore that it’s an insult, and be quiet, I will hail you as a coward forever for failing to defend them!” It was forcing me to say even worse things, but my rational side stopped me saying – “if you say that to her, then whatever chance you stand of reuniting with her will be gone too. ENOUGH.” The only thing I’m glad for.
I cannot be gentle with myself so easily. I only visualize poor Jerry crying quietly alone after reading this vile poison I sent her and I am reminded that nobody but me is directly responsible for this situation. If I had been harsh with myself from the beginning and severely punished myself for abusing her, forced myself to improve day and night, none of this would’ve ever happened.
March 26, 2016 at 9:24 am #100135AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
I disagree with your last statement that if you had been harsh with yourself from the beginning and severely punished yourself for abusing her, none of this would’ve happened. I strongly disagree because from my life experience and thorough observations, it is not self punishment that does the job of making us better people, but patience and gentleness with ourselves that does the job. What does patience and gentleness with yourself means: it does not mean being okay with the behaviors that are not okay. It doesn’t mean being passive and letting things be. It means being gentle and patient with yourself while you are changing the behaviors you want to change.
There simply is no other way. You already know the correspondence you last posted was vile. This is no reason to start a war against yourself! It was a verbal vile communication. And a regrettable one, one to not repeat and work very hard to change. But, Ravi, you can live with this transgression, this should not be too heavy for you to carry, to live with.
You feel badly about it, of course. So you feel bad. Let it be. Don’t hurt yourself any more.
If you had a child and the child misbehaved, a reasonable punishment will do to teach the child, not a beating! Not drawing blood! That would just make the child scared and more angry.
I can’t stress enough how important it is for you to stop that war against yourself! Enough already!!!
As far as your mother I wish I had a son for a doctor in the next life statements… this is making me think that she is invested in the sole objective of you becoming a doctor. As if she doesn’t care about anything at all except this one thing. She doesn’t even care if you are a good or bad person, as long as you become a doctor. I feel disgust at her motivation as I see it.
And by the way, does this make you angry, that I just wrote that your mother’s behavior disgusts me?
anita
March 26, 2016 at 10:32 am #100155ravi_zimmerfanParticipantI understand that, Anita. I can see where you’re coming from. But clearly, being gentle and patient did not work for me in this past year. Right from December 2014 when I had been acting like a vicious monster, Jerry messaged me sweetly and patiently on my birthday in May and asked me so gently, “Bro, it’s your birthday today. I only ask you to promise me a few things. I ask you not to use abuses for yourself. I ask you to be patient and understand what I’m trying to say, before getting angry. I ask you not to repeatedly quote the haters’ bad words for our actor we love. Can you please do this much for me?” I promised her. It wasn’t like my promise wasn’t sincere, that I didn’t feel bad each time I failed to live up to it. But you can see where it led to. Clearly being just gentle and patient wasn’t sufficient, or my resolve wasn’t strong enough. Do I not love Jerry enough to wish to sincerely change for her? Then why did I fail every time? She has every reason to believe I wasn’t sincere, and that’s what made me feel I should’ve been harder with myself. But I agree with your statements that self-hatred will only make this worse. I’ll do my best to control it.
I can live with accepting that I did something terribly wrong, and I cannot change it. That damage is done. I however, cannot live with losing her. I want to sincerely make up to her for what I did. And most importantly, fulfill right now the promise I made to her nearly a year ago; sincerely change myself completely.
Regarding my mom, I’d probably have been offended had I not been so angry and hurt with my family myself (I wish I was like this during that talk with Jerry). And yes… in fact I was just talking to my friend about it, even her mom giving her the same “studies are everything” lecture. I didn’t want to post this in public… but I guess you really should see what else my mom said:
Me: Mom, please stop trying to defend me. I did something really horrible to someone I love and respect a lot. I cannot be excused.
Mom: None of it matters. Can we please just put this aside until your exams are over? Then, I promise we’ll work on this together.
Me: My guilt and depression won’t let me study. I’ve become a horrible person. Of what use is money and fame if I have no values left?
Mom: Yes, career is everything to live in society today! Do you deny it?
Me: No, but…
Mom: Just see your uncle. He uses the most foul language I ever heard, even beats his wife, but he’s a top ranking doctor in town and all respect him. So what if he’s not behaving well? He has all things money can buy in life. Even my own (family member) used to abuse me badly, but I am saying nothing.
Me: Mom, are you serious?? No matter who does such behaviour, it is WRONG. Should I not be a better person than those people? Are you saying such behaviour is acceptable as long as you become a big doctor or whatever?
Mom: No, but you just go and study now and stop thinking all this. Just qualify your exam first. I promise we’ll take you to a psychiatrist, do whatever you want then.
Me: Because of me, out there someone is hurt and crying and so depressed. Don’t you think the society will blame you too for giving me wrong values?
Mom: Look, you are wasting valuable time. How many topics are left to be covered in physics, chemistry? Are all your assignments complete? Did you study…
Me: *Storms out in frustration*I have no more to say… the above convo speaks for itself.
March 26, 2016 at 10:45 am #100157AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
Sickening, this is what I feel reading her part of the conversation. When you asked her: “Are you saying such behaviour is acceptable as long as you become a big doctor..?” Her answer was “No, but..” She lied. This is exactly what she said.
She said that it is okay for you, Ravi, to use foul language and even beat your wife (once married) as long as you become a doctor. This is what she said.
She also said it is okay to abuse another, that it is acceptable.
I am going to take a little break so to recover from my my feelings about what she said.
anita
March 26, 2016 at 10:54 am #100158ravi_zimmerfanParticipantYes. This was barely a week back and very much is still continuing. I’m sitting in my room like a living corpse, refusing meals and crying over memories of her, and all my parents are worried about is how much “valuable time” I am wasting, time in which I could’ve solved another two hundred precious MCQs on atomic structure or oxidative phosphorylation. When I get angry saying that I’m expected to be working like a robot with no emotions, I’m told – “Don’t say that! What about your friends who are scoring 99% in all practice tests? Are they not humans with emotions too? But see, they give priorities to studies and put everything back. They’ll qualify the exams and unless you work equally hard and push back this issue for now, you won’t.” Then when I persist, mom says – “OK fine, we’ll put aside your studies for now. Tell me, who’s this person you love so much and are so worried about? We’ll make friends with them, convince them to forgive you and talk to you again.” I was so flabbergasted at this that I didn’t even know what to say.
OK I do understand how crucial this exam is, why my parents are so concerned as I’ve nearly ruined my career already, and they’re working very hard to make sure I get the best facilities. I do agree that a good job is vital to earn respect in society and life. I just did not expect mom to brush aside a clearly serious issue regarding my personality flaws so lightly, and ignore the fact that I’m suicidal and half dead due to depression and grief, all they care is that I could’ve studied more in that time and not the fact that I’m being crushed with anguish. This just hurt me a lot.
March 26, 2016 at 11:29 am #100159AnonymousGuestDear Ravi:
You are in a tough situation and I am concerned for you. Let’s separate the different issues:
1) Studies: are you interested in becoming a medical doctor and pursuing this career? If so, yes, you will need to study for the May exams.
2) Your relationship with Jerry is on a break, temporary at the least. Best if you put it aside if you can, simply because there is nothing you can do about it. You can’t make Jerry contact you, nor do I believe that she should.
3) It is difficult to see reality for what it is, including seeing the values your mother holds and practices. She has this tunnel vision: studies, a respectable career is all that matters. And at the same time she is holding this value, her very behavior defeats her own (!) value. With her behavior she is acting against her own desire to have a doctor son.
* Take some time out to relax and focus. If you do want #1 above, for your own purposes, then you should focus on it now. Not for your mother’s sake, but for your own.
And in doing so, you may need to put aside for now, until the big testing, all other issues.
Including the issues you can do nothing about no matter how strongly you feel about them. You can’t will Jerry to contact you no matter how strongly you want her to.
What do you think?
anita
March 26, 2016 at 11:50 am #100161ravi_zimmerfanParticipantThanks again Anita. Addressing these issues separately…
1. I definitely am interested, yes. I chose this career of my own accord but everything I had to endure for the past years, has soured my motivation to pursue it. But then, the biology field in India doesn’t offer any more strong careers as of now. They’re not really worth it considering my age and lack of time. I do need to study hard to solve this once and for all.
2. I know. I can accept it being a temporary break. But the fear of losing her keeps haunting me day and night. Her memories torture me all the time. My guilt at hurting her kills me. I am only surviving by keeping my faith in our bond alive in my heart like a Patronus (in Harry Potter terms). I know that even if she contacts me right now, I’ve not yet changed myself and it just isn’t right for me to be with her until I do.
3. I can deal with that at least at the present. As long as I’m seen sitting with a mountain of books, and offer a long grocery list of all the topics I prepared that day, my parents are satisfied. I can keep that up until exams and then work out the issues we are concerned about. Problem is, my depression won’t let me study and me sitting like a zombie in my room is attracting concern.
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