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Depressed due to guilt and fear

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  • #110772
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    Her sister wrote that to me in April. I think I had posted it here. And yes Jerry had communicated with me via her sister after that and I had asked her not to message until she understands what I’m explaining… I remember posting it here.

    I re-read our discussions and remembered my few interactions with her after the breakup. Honestly, I can’t see anything other than her maintaining a stony silence or sending back a curt “We’re strangers now, goodbye and take care” type of message. I’m forseeing the worst possible outcome and also the situation to continue solo, like Tintin did for Chang. But I guess the outcome depends on careful communication at this stage too.

    #110789
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    I must have missed that communication. My plans changed for today. I will later go over our communications on the thread myself and write to you later.

    anita

    #110800
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    Following you receiving the message: ” “We have no anger towards you, we just don’t want to have anything to do with you anymore.” what happened?

    Did you message her (jerry/ her sister) back following the above? What did you express in that message More than once? What were your messages about? And what message/s did you get following those?

    Please be specific, tell only of the messages in between since the one I quoted here.

    anita

    #110808
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    To be specific, here’s the conversation I had with her and her sister (condensed version):

    Sister – Hey… my sister has a message for you. She does not want to continue this bond anymore as it’s not brotherly.
    Me – Please tell her I’m ready to do keep it a bro-sis bond only if that’s all acceptable to her.
    Sister – But how can she trust you to keep your word and keep it a brotherly bond only from now on? It’s easier said than done.
    Me – I’m willing to do anything to preserve our bond.
    Sister – To the extent of having the chutzpah to call her sis again? You’ll sink so low?
    Me – You don’t understand. I never meant any harm, she just means a lot to me.
    Sister – We did not expect this from you. My sister trusted you, she genuinely felt you cared for her as a sister! Do you have any idea how much your deeds affected her?
    Me – I never meant anything wrong! Just because I had some feelings, doesn’t mean I stopped caring for her. Is even having feelings bad?
    Sister – YES! It is WRONG! It is BAD! Not expected! We did not expect you to transform from a humble and caring brother into a bloodthirsty monster. No good person in the Indian culture ever behaves like this, romantically loving a girl after calling her his sister. I know now that the Internet is a dangerous place due to monsters like you who wear masks and deceive innocent girls and exploit them. The other girls who call you brother need to beware, because you can change your feelings and start lusting for them anytime.
    Me – Just because I gave one person a special place in my heart, doesn’t mean I’ll do it for everybody else. Because I know I truly shared a special bond with her.
    Sister – I don’t know what your bond was. But seeing the present situation and seeing how hurt she is, I know your so-called bond was worthless and weak. I don’t feel all relations are the same. I don’t think our own brother would ever think of changing relations with us like you did.
    Me – I never tried to change relations. I kept my feelings quiet as possible as I knew she’ll be hurt. I can understand your indignation and feeling of betrayal…
    Sister – This is not anger. This is just what we feel is right to do. We just don’t want to have anything to do with you anymore. You have so many girls willing to call you brother, so it won’t matter if one of them leaves you. Enjoy life with the rest, just don’t betray them the way you betrayed my sister. Goodbye, take care, stay blessed.
    Me – Your heart knows what’s right and wrong to do. And you should know no relationship can replace another. I’ll love Jerry forever and nobody can take her place in my life. I wish we’re back together someday.

    I guess nothing significant was said after this. After that Jerry messaged me a week or two later via her sister.

    Jerry – Look Ravi bro, I know you’re older than me and I respect you. That’s why I thought of messaging you. I hope you realize what you’re doing is wrong and it’s of no use deleting your Facebook and Twitter accounts. We are both parts of our show’s fandom and that’s our common interest. I interacted with you as I consider you my brother. Please don’t go around telling people that I loved you romantically. Whatever little I shared with you, I did as a sister. There are plenty of things I didn’t share with you, and I know you didn’t share with me either. That’s all there ever was between us and I never said anything for you to wrongly feel that I love you romantically. I don’t want to hear about this anymore. If you want, you can message me on Facebook sometimes but not regarding this matter.
    Me – I’m so happy to hear from you. I hope you know I deleted my accounts not out of attention seeking, but because all of that means nothing to me without you. I never told anyone that you loved me romantically and that seems to be a misunderstanding. I have reasons for loving you myself and I hope you know that sharing secrets isn’t the criteria for loving someone.
    Jerry – I can’t stand this. I know certain behaviours of yours like after our phone call, you said you hope I feel comfortable with you… and thus I understood what was going on in your mind.
    Me – That I am a lustful beast and a pervert, right? I’m sorry, sis. I cannot hope to make you understand anything unless you put aside your pre-conceived notions. Please don’t message me until you do that. I may have committed the “sin” of loving you more than a sister, but my heart knows I did not do it with any wrong intentions. I know I’ve done many bad things but loving you isn’t one of them. I love you always and I hope everything gets well someday.

    She didn’t message me after this, didn’t respond to mine either when I messaged saying sorry if she felt bad.

    #110829
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    Thank you for the whole record of the very last/ most recent communication you had with Jerry’s sister and with Jerry.

    This is making the project of writing Jerry a message more clear to me, way more clear. your message to her needs not be angry at her at all (and that will be a change!) It needs to be loving to Jerry. Not attacking her and not defending yourself. No war in it.

    Write the message when you are calm, when you are feeling no anger. Don’t write at all about the accusations and how hurt you are. Enough with the anger at her! It really is not her fault that she lives in a society that considers her tainted if she associates with a young man who is not a brother to her. She needs the acceptance of her family just as you need yours. You shouldn’t expect her to turn against her family and the cultural ethics that were instilled in her.

    So make it a loving message, nothing angry at Jerry, no games, no manipulations, no demands. Will be back at the computer in ten hours or so.

    Take care-

    anita

    #110834

    You are such a beautiful and sweet beautiful human being its OK to be you. Don’t APOLOGIZE FOR BEIN YOU<3 what a beautiful thing this thing called LIFE and that we can meet ppl who help us and help us grow and such beautiful memories with you are amazing and I’m so proud of you. If you guys are meant to be pals forever then it’ll happen if not, give it time. Don’t worry over stuff you apologized and you did your best. As long as u are sorry is what matters. Just remember not everyone is meant to be in your life its about hthe good times how You helped eachother and that’ you had good times helped eahxither be the person u are today is what matters. You beautiful soul so proud of you thank u for existing and its OK don’t beat yourself up we make mistakes but you aren’t a bad person nothing will change this. Keep being your beautiful self and have faith everything will work out as it needs too. She might not be your pal but atleast the memories won’t change. It’s not your fault at all. Perhaps she doenst wanna be pals u can’t control it. You can remember the good times and enjoy the beautiful day in eqxh day and remember y desevre to be happy. Please take care of yourself we love you <3 you matter it will all work for the best i promise good luck to u whatever happened.it all worked for the best you’ll find more good pals and you’ll alwyas remember the good times just learn from past and don’t get stuck there. You desevre to ebiy the present

    #110837
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    Anita – thanks a lot for the advice. I’m making a few changes to my message and reposting here after reading your post. Please see if it’s okay to send to Jerry.

    Livelovelifeeleni – Thanks a lot for the kind words. I’m very grateful. Sadly, if we cannot be together again, then those happy memories will stab me like a knife every day and haunt me to the grave. I cannot just take them as a learning step and move on. That’s just my nature.

    #110839
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    My updated message:
    *****

    I know you don’t want to talk to me and I know how fallen I am in the eyes of you and your sister now. You are sweet to deny it, Jerry, but you know it’s true and I understand why. I don’t know whether you’ll reply or read this message, or delete it after a glance. I’m messaging you because my exams are over at last, and this is something I have been wishing to say for long. I don’t feel repeating what we’ve said before is of any use. I accept that I am nobody to consider myself above social rules, and in that context I accept that I have done wrong. I know you don’t like these things and that’s why I tried to keep my feelings from you and confessed only to 2 mutual friends. If it still means I transformed from a humble and caring brother into a monster, then I accept that I am one. But God knows that if there’s anything I have never done, it is stopping caring for you, disrespecting you or thinking inappropriately of you. I admit I have lost my temper over petty issues, behaved badly with you, even stopped talking… but my temper has never ended with me not regretting it. I was so touched by your last message, “though he hurted me with the bad words he used, I’ll pray for him and always think good only for him”, I promised to change myself and I’ve made every effort to stop using bad language and losing temper. Because I genuinely respect and care for you, always.

    The above issue aside, I can only hope you understand that I never lusted for you or thought inappropriately of you, Jerry. My love was always based on respect for you as a person and your virtues which make you who you are. I accept that you loved me as a brother only and never expected this from me, and felt so betrayed. I’m sorry for everything you had to go through because of me. But if someone is doing their best to make up to you after five months, I wish you could see that their underlying motivation is sincere, and not lust or bad intentions. I don’t know about anything else, but I miss you. I miss you and our bond every day and every moment. There has not been a single day from 7th March when I’ve had a single moment of peace. I have been told to remain happy with all the others who call me brother. But you know better than me that no relation can ever take the place of another. And nobody can ever take your place in my life either, Jerry. That’s how it has been and how it always will be. I’m not asking for any special place in your life, and I have no right to request anything from you. I wanted to acknowledge and accept my faults which I’ve thought about in these months, and which I accept that you were right about and I am wrong. I don’t know what difference my regret can make, but it’s the least I can do and I wish to do so.

    #110852
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    Great improvement and I have more improvement to suggest to you, for you to consider. First the background to my suggestions, that is, my new understanding of the situation. This is how I view you, Jerry, her sister and what happened. As you read this, consider and correct me where I am wrong, and let me know where I am correct:

    Jerry when you met her and throughout the almost three years of the sister/ brother relationship with you was a loving very young woman to you. She was open, reaching out to you, empathetic, accommodating, kind, very forgiving, flexible, more than any person has ever been to you.

    In those almost three years you got very angry at her from time to time, not because she did anything wrong but because she had a blood brother/ other people in her life and you were very jealous. You also assigned meanings to what she said which she didn’t mean and you then abused her with foul language, accusations, withdrawal… and she apologized to you at some of those instances even though she did nothing wrong. She on the other hand, never abused you during that time, never directed anger at you, anger that didn’t belong to the relation with you. You did that. She didn’t. She was quite submissive in apologizing to you and forgiving of your abusive language and intense anger.

    Then, close to three years, you confessed to two friends that your feelings for her were no longer of the brother/ sister kind. One of those friends shared that communication with her and she found out. Along the way, her sister found out. Although her sister is five years younger than Jerry, her sister is more assertive than Jerry. Her sister was also not emotionally involved with you for almost three years, so it was easier for her sister to assert Jerry’s feelings that it was for Jerry. Hence the sister got into the picture- to help Jerry.

    Jerry is a kind, soft, loving young woman. I can see why you, Ravi, got so attached to her. Jerry has to be seen in the context of her family and culture as she is not at all separate from these (neither are you). In the context of her family and culture, she is a Good Girl, a good person, approved and deserving of her family and society’s approval, only if she has a sister/ brother relationship with any particular man. It has to be sister/ brother OR nothing at all. No in between (except for her father, uncles).

    There is no in-between. It is completely unacceptable for Jerry. You got to understand this, Ravi.

    She can’t challenge this belief- or she loses her … life, this is how serious this is. It is unconceivable for her to challenge this. She is not strong enough/ independent enough. She simply can not.

    So all this time that you- and I- criticized her for holding on to the brother/ sister relationship as the only possibility- we were both WRONG. And this is my new understanding. Our criticism of her was wrong and unfair to her.

    Your view that Jerry is cold or exhibiting “stone silence” I think you termed it, that she goes on with her life like nothing happened, I don’t believe it is true. I believe Jerry is a very sensitive, very young woman and she took it very much to heart, probably still does. Her sister must have seen Jerry’s distress and offered to help her. Jerry was too weak to handle this by herself.

    Waiting for your feedback and will go from there.

    anita

    #110854
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    You are very right regarding that, Anita. I’ve always accepted and confessed that she was extremely soft, gentle and forgiving. Nobody else would’ve put up with so much atrocity from me… not even my own family. Nobody but me is responsible on that front. I tried my best to make up to her and make her happy after the initial incidents last year. But this possessiveness issue totally ruined everything. I don’t know if I can ever fully make up to her for that. I just hope the pain I myself have been suffering from almost 5 months can serve as some humble penace.

    I don’t deny that there are enormous social/familial expectations for Jerry (or probably any girl) in the Indian society. When she was too frightened to accept even a physical gift from me or the possibility of meeting me someday, that becomes more important. I’ve always had a feeling that under her exterior anger, she’s actually afraid. Afraid of what exactly, I’ve not been able to put my finger on. You voiced my suspicions. That said I still am hurt by her sister’s words because I never meant ill for Jerry in that manner, not that I have any right to defend myself when I know how much wrong I myself have done. I felt she’s going happily about her life because I saw her running our Facebook page, posting on our forum and other things we once used to do together. I could be wrong of course.

    My question is how to proceed from here. I have promised her that I’ll never let my feelings come between us and keep our bond platonic only… but she doesn’t believe me (for good reason). What can I do, honestly? Put my promise down in writing and sign it in blood? Carve it with a knife on my arm? Honestly, I am willing to do anything just to have her back.. to make up for everything I did. No matter how wild or unimaginable, I’ll do it for her.

    #110856
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    You are overly dramatic, I believe. Overly because it has no moral value. I will explain: it seems like you think that your suffering is penance. As if your pain benefits Jerry or the situation. As if carving your arm and drawing blood is an act of virtue on your part. No, it is not. Your pain is not virtue. It doesn’t help you, Jerry, or the situation. So stop with those histrionics. In your past communications with Jerry, you seem to be saying: Look how hurt I am! This makes me Right. My pain makes me the victim, so it is YOUR job to make it right, you are responsible!

    Got to stop this, Ravi. This is not Love. Histrionics is not love.

    “No matter how wild or unimaginable, I’ll do it for her”- here are the histrionics. It needs not be “wild or unimaginable,” like fighting dragons or climbing a steep mountain- it doesn’t need to be Tintin-flashy. It needs to be Loving of Jerry.

    So what would be loving on your part? If you love Jerry, you don’t hurt her. If you love Jerry, you think of her well being. So you think to yourself: what is best for Jerry? What is jerry’s motivations, what does she need… what is the causes of her distress, and how can I help?

    You look at things from her point of view, not only from your own. So, take it from here. Respond to what I wrote and answer these questions in the paragraph above.

    anita

    #110860
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    Reading this, my belief that I no longer am a good person (or ever was) is more confirmed. In my histrionics, selfishness and goodness knows what more, I did more damage than anybody else. I know it. She never was like this before and for her becoming like this, I know nobody but me is responsible. I don’t know how I can be considered a good or loving person after seeing how much damage I did to her.

    Answering your questions, thinking from her point of view… Jerry always prized her relation with me. To the extent that she was willing to put up with so much just to maintain the bond. She told my friends that she loves me and never wants to lose me. She asked me to promise to be with her always. She felt she could count on me to be a humble and loving brother to her, always. When she found out about my feelings… she felt most shocked and betrayed, for reasons we’ve discussed. And afraid… because she knew that if her family ever found out, it would be disaster beyond imagination. She discussed with her sister and decided that my feelings are not something that can be eradicated so easily… and therefore she now has no choice but to choose between me and her family. And her sister hated me for my actions and let me have it, without showing any of Jerry’s restraint or mercy. I hope I’ve been able to analyze correctly somewhat.

    I love Jerry and I want to…
    1) Comfort her and make up for all the pain I caused her. Show that I understand what she has undergone, genuinely regret it and I have been doing my best to change myself for her
    2) Help her understand that I never stopped loving and caring for her
    3) Assure her that I would never do anything that puts her or her reputation at risk. That I would get rid of my feelings if only to be with her, even in an inferior relation, because nothing is more important to me.
    4) Let her know that I am always there for her, as she asked of me. And I always will be.

    I hope it doesn’t sound selfish. I tried my best to look at it from her POV firstly.

    #110862
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    The histrionics and drama are strong in you. Reading the first paragraph alone, of your last post, it is there again, first thing: ” I did more damage than anybody else. I know it… I know nobody but me is responsible. I don’t know how I can be considered a good or loving person after seeing how much damage I did to her.”

    For crying our loud, Ravi- you didn’t damage her that much! You are exaggerating again, big time. Jerry had her sister to help her- she was not and is not alone. She kept active on social media- she didn’t withdraw. She had difficult time but you didn’t ruin her. And then, you keep with the histrionics and drama: now you are back to the idea that you are bad and a terrible person with no redeeming qualities, and from birth! This is all your all-or-nothing, overly dramatic histrionics. (I am quite amazed that I didn’t see this before. How could I have missed it, I wonder).

    I agree with your analysis which I just read. Now regarding your goals. I agree with: “Comfort her and make up for all the pain I caused her. Show that I understand what she has undergone”

    The rest, I don’t agree with because these are about YOU. It is about pushing on her your desired image of yourself, that YOU love her so very much, while in fact…

    My goodness, Ravi… in fact, you didn’t. These things are not true: you were not concerned with her reputation or her feelings, only with yours. This is a mind boggling realization for me, right now, seeing it as clearly as I do now. Through this whole thing with Jerry, all this time, it was not about loving her. I can hardly believe it myself.

    anita

    #110869
    ravi_zimmerfan
    Participant

    I don’t know what to say if it’s clear that I don’t love her… that I want her selfishly for myself and as an object and tool of pleasure. Maybe its best that I leave her then so that people who deserve to be with her can do so. I’m nothing but a selfish, conniving thug after all… to the extent of lusting for her and treating her as a tool of pleasure too, and lying about it here. Her sister is right after all. Sorry for all the trouble I caused and thanks for all the help.

    #110880
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Ravi:

    Your histrionics continue: I didn’t suggest that you are a “conniving thug”- not even close. I didn’t suggest you were or are “lusting for her and treating her as a tool of pleasure.” Not even close.

    Your inclination is to abandon our communication here on this thread. Just when great progress can be made in your mind and your life. This is an opportunity for you. It is your well being and benefit that I aim for. And we are so close, if only you don’t give up. Like Tintin- don’t give up now, on this thread, on our communication. It feels very uncomfortable, distressing… you may be angry at me. But endure all these, like the hero you want to be, who will never give up. Be that- this is your chance. Right here. Will be waiting for your reply soon or later, when you are ready.

    anita

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