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Any thoughts on dealing with shame

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  • #77429
    undercity
    Participant

    I came specifically to this forum because I like to use mindfulness. I have found it better for most things that the other therapies I have learned. Being more mindful, I have become more aware of my emotions, and can now identify that the main emotion I feel is shame (and guilt). It is not over a specific thing, or because of particular memories. It does not even seem to be tied to specific thoughts. It just sort of hangs there. I sometimes find myself suddenly panicking and trying to remember ‘what it is I did wrong’ because I can feel the strong sense of ‘done bad’ but I can’t remember what I’ve done. So as I say, it just seems to be a disconnected emotion.

    I have learned not to fight it through cognitive reassessment etc, because then you feel like you’re trying to prove yourself to yourself and that makes things worse. I have tried to accept that I feel ashamed but that does not mean I’m shameful (i.e. see it as just a kind of emotional memory that is no longer relevant), and while this helps distance me, I find that it still rather dampens my spirits.

    Does anyone have any good ideas of how to live well with shame?

    #77431
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear undercity:
    Are you communicating here that you have no memories of being shamed, negatively criticized as a child by a parent/ parents/ others?

    If you have such memories, is it that those memories do not appear in a verbal form before or when you feel shame?

    As to your question about living well with shame- nope, I have no idea how to live WELL wish shame, only how to survive, which I have done for many years. Will share those if you need ideas of how to survive it but i need to be convinced that you have no choice but to live with it. Hope you answer my questions.

    Take care:
    anita

    #77432
    undercity
    Participant

    Dear Anita
    I apologise, I have not explained myself particularly well.

    I do not have a good memory of my childhood and it has become considerably worse post-therapy. Previously, I would have just given the blanket statement of ‘I had a good childhood’, but now that therapists have asked me to zoom in on what memories I have, I have seen some issues and am no longer sure of the quality of my care when I was a child – I remember isolated incidents that could be described as less than adequate care, and some memories that would be described as adequate (or good) care, but I would not be able to say the frequency of either type of event or really give any impression of the overall quality of care. I am not the best judge of it, bizarrely. I simply do not have enough memories to evaluate it, which I put down to being an extremely daydreamy child – I probably just was not with it most of the time so memories did not get stored.

    I do remember in those negative memories times when I would have been criticised or when it would have been understandable for me to feel shame, but to answer your question these episodes are not called to mind when I feel shame and they do feel very disconnected. I can logically connect childhood events to present-time emotions, but I cannot emotionally connect them. It just seems so long ago (I am 28, so it os quite a long time ago now!) I would say that the emotions are very non-verbal and come more as a ‘state of being’. I would say shame is also very normalised for me so I did not identify it as shame for many years and it feels a little like ‘just how life is’. I had many of the disorders linked to chronic shame, such as eating disorders, and later I developed social phobia (in my late teens, which is oddly late on for social phobia), and workaholism. I have overcome all of this now (except, arguably, the workaholism, though it is nowhere near as bad).

    I don’t think I have a reason to be ashamed (i.e. I do not think I am shameful), but I am somewhat as a loss as to what to do about it. I do, as you say, survive rather than live and have for as long as I can remember, but I seem to tolerate it well. I suppose I’m more now starting to think about the possibility of a different way of living in which I feel fulfilled or satisfied or content. I suppose I have no idea how to overcome shame that seems so illogical, so started to wonder if I could be happy as well as ashamed….although I guess that doesn’t make sense, does it?!

    #77434
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear undercity:
    Regarding your first paragraph: I too have very few memories of my childhood and i used to be very confused by it. i thought that i couldn’t KNOW if i was abused or not because i did not remember. Through mindfulness I finally realized that I can trust my feelings and thoughts- my automatic feelings and thoughts that are activated so often throughout the day, every day- as EVIDENCE of what childhood I had. I realized nobody chooses- unconsciously choosing SHAME. Shame is inflicted not chosen by the shamed one. I realized that my child part (inner child, id, in Freudan terms) can be trusted to tell me through those automatic cognitions what REALLY happened. Details are not so important, the how i was shamed. the fact is – I was.

    I too was a very daydreamy child- a way to remove myself from the scary environment i was in, shaming mother. In my daydreams I was a dancer and thousands of people in the audience were in standing ovation, cheering my performance. In reality I was shamed and put down.

    Your second paragraph:actually I have to go for a walk and may not be able to return to the computer until tomorrow. When I am back I will go back to your post and I would like it if you respond to my wrting here so far.

    More insight to you!
    anita

    #77436
    undercity
    Participant

    Dear Anita
    Yes, I somewhat agree and had come to a similar decision myself, although I am not putting aside the possibility that some children (potentially myself) are more sensitive to their environment than others as well and that it may be a collaboration of both factors. It has been pointed out in me that I am sensitive to my environment in that I notice beauty around me in nature and art and can really ‘feel’ that, and I also notice and ‘feel’ the emotions of others more immediately than others. I don’t think these are necessarily ‘bad’ things, they certainly have their uses and they definitely give me joy (because I can become absorbed in the beauty of art and nature, and because I am both compassionate towards the pain of others and happy for them when they are happy, seeing as I ‘catch’ their happiness too!) But of course it does potentially mean I am a little more vulnerable to my surroundings and need to ground myself from time to time (which isn’t a problem, particularly).

    With my parents, my mother has suffered quite severe mental health problems in her time (she believes she at one point had borderline personality disorder although I could not account for the validity of that) and I know that when I was a child she was volatile. She is much better now. She was abused as a child and had a very painful upbringing and she had not yet been treated when I was being raised. My father has problems in the opposite direction in that he is not capable of closeness particularly. We did not bond when I was young as we did not share either emotional or physical closeness and he was fiercely critical (especially when I was doing well – as if to keep me from ‘getting above my station’). So both parents had their own problems that will undoubtedly have affected my childhood, and of course I can logically surmise how this will have led to a feeling of shame, although when I look back I do not really even feel that I am the same person as I was back then because it is difficult to relate to myself as a child, knowing little – I suppose – of who I was at the time. I am not sure I could say I had a ‘bad’ childhood, as I would wonder what that meant really – compared to what? I would say that my care must have been inadequate, but I also trust my parents did the best they could with what they had, and I would say they also managed (against the odds) to do many things very well.

    #77444
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear undercity:
    I see a lot of myself in you as you express yourself here. These are the similarities: I too have a problem feeling connected to the child that I was. I do not feel a continuation between me then and me now. I remember very, very little. I too was told that I am sensitive, too sensitive and my mother was borderline personality mixed with histrionic and narcissistic. And i was distant from my father who left the “home” when I was five or six with only one memory of him being at “home”- not a good memory. I too went through life not aware of where my distress came from. As I practiced mindfulness I was unsuccessful for a few years figuring out there was at all any thinking attached to my feelings of distressed. Eventually I found out that much of the thinking is so automatic that it does not appear as words. I am only recently getting into the words. And it is only yesterday that for the first time in my life I saw myself as a child differently than before. Before when I saw myself as a child, in my mind’s eye, I saw one of the few photos I have of me as a child, a still photo. Yesterday i saw myself for the first time as a movie, moving picture.

    One difference between me and you is that I am 54. Now, it was a long time ago that i was a child yet it is obviously possible for me to get in touch with the child that I was, the child still in me.

    The child in me still needs to be SEEN, so I need to pay attention to her, to see her and give her empathy when I feel her distress. The child in you i imagine is still hidden. You need him to live more than you do now, to do much more than to survive.

    have to run. Write me, please.
    anita

    #77445
    MichelleZ
    Participant

    Have you tried praying for forgiveness? This is a very powerful technique in rising above any situation. It is a process that you do each morning, for 30 days. It takes only a couple of minutes. I understand there is nothing in particular that you feel shameful or guilty over; from what I understood from your text it’s just a feeling that lingers. And with that said, I would suggest praying for one (or two) person(s) for 30 days. It could be anybody you have weird feelings towards. Forgive them for whatever they have done that has annoyed you. And then forgive yourself too. This is the part that brings it full circle and releases any angst. Forgive yourself for having those feelings towards that person and release yourself.

    It has to be the same person and yourself for 30 days, not different people each day or week… In the beginning it may seem weird. You may even feel emotions such as sadness or anger. But somewhere within those 30 days, you will feel softer. The releasing will begin. The prayers of forgivness could even be towards a situation in your life that you would like to release instead of a person.

    Prayer and forgiveness are the mediums to you and your internal world, Being, Higher Self. There are no feelings of guilt or shame within that dimension. And the more you pray and forgive, the more of a connection you will make to that dimension within yourself that feels whole. That is why the process will become “Holy” after some time.

    🙂

    #77463
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear undercity:
    I read and re-read all your posts here this Friday morning. I see that the fact that you are empathetic to others, feeling their pain and happiness, feeling sadness for them when in pain and happiness for them when they are happy is the KEY to the next step in your healing, the next step in the process of healing that you already started.

    Next time you feel empathy for another, notice how it feels and as you feel it, shift your thoughts to the child within you and apply the empathy you are feeling at the moment to yourself. See if you can shift the object of your empathy from another- to yourself.

    The fact that you have empathy for others is indication that you can have empathy for yourself.

    Mindfulness is a lifetime process. Once you started- and you had- there is no such thing as “Okay, I did enough of that, now what?” There is MORE AND MORE TO SEE.And you can’t rush this more-and-more to see and notice and learn. You have to apply patience. What you don’t see now- you will see tomorrow or sometime later. It is the nature of applying mindfulness. It is like watching a forest in 2 dimensions- you notice things but you see more as the 2D change to 3D, way more. Your connection with the child that you were, the child you still are is a 3D kind of stage of mindfulness.

    Just keep being mindful and the 3-D will develop.

    What do you think undercity- what do you think about extracting your child part from under the city slowly, slowly, over time, gently, patiently… let him be seen, let him see the light…?
    anita

    #77500
    undercity
    Participant

    Dear Michelle – thank you for your thoughts. These were very interesting as I was actually preparing to explain to my therapist why I practice forgiveness and compassion so much :-p (He seems to think it is a perfectionistic standard but I do not).

    I don’t tend to hold grudges or get hung up on others’ behaviour towards me and the reason for this is that I learned long ago – who knows when – that if I take a deep breath and think ‘this person has struggles, as do I, I hope they feel good again soon’ and feel a sense of love and warmth towards them regardless of what they do, it brings me peace. But thank you for your suggestion because I know that doing this does make me feel peaceful so I think the suggestion is a very good one.

    Which brings me neatly to Anita’s response and again we’re getting into things I’ve been trying 😀 Not to say your words are not helpful because they are. I realised that I am compassionate towards others but not myself and that I do not need to ‘think myself into that space’ when it comes to others. For instance, a friend of mine often needs reassurance and help and it often feels like she does not listen to what I say so that we have the same conversation again and again. I eventually felt frustrated and vented to a friend, who said simply: “Well, she’s just going to have to learn how to self-soothe”. Without thinking, I replied: “Well I think that’s rather a tall order. Self-soothing is normally learned at age three or below, we’re talking about someone in their 30s, I think she will learn to self soothe in time but it will not be overnight.” I didn’t feel like I was being defensive and I didn’t feel angry or anything, I was just putting across my personal belief. I realised later that had those words been said against me: “You’re just going to have to self soothe”, I would have immediately thought: “They’ve got a point, I’m not very good at that and I should be better, I’m a complete nutcase and no one should ever have to be around me.” I would not practice the same logic towards myself as I do others.

    Trying to give myself the same standards as others, and not expect myself to magically ‘do better’ has been difficult, but I think you are right that I gave up too quickly.

    Also, although my shame does not come with words, I had a think about it and decided I think my shame is down to a very abstract concept of not being ‘normal’. I feel that I am not the same as other people and that I cannot be trusted in social situations because I don’t understand how to be a normal human being (so I must be hidden). I feel like I have no idea what normal is or how to behave (although I do not, and have never had, behavioural problems…) I was socially excluded at school until I was 11, so this may be the cause, although at the time I did not find it upsetting (because I saw the other children as ‘not so important any way’ and did not feel I was missing out). I will try to just let that be a thought, or a feeling, and trust that it is not a reflection of reality. And as you say, I will not stop because it doesn’t work immediately 😉

    Thanks all

    #77504
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear undercity:
    I read your post above but did not understand. It can be my information processing that is not adequate. If you’d like, can you re-write your thoughts in the above post? I would very much like to understand- I feel there is something worthy there for me to understand and process.
    anita

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