Dear Adam:

You wrote that the other women in your life were flings and you have cared more for this woman than for any other. The anxiety you felt with her, when you are away from her you feel calmer. I wonder if in your relationship with her, because it is more intimate than those in the past, if issues from your childhood are triggered.

It may be that her talking about other guys, as she has done (and it was harmful and something no guy would like!) triggered an old injury that you forgot about, and that old injury started bleeding and it is demanding your attention.

I am looking for answers so I will ask you a question in that search for an answer. This question may seem weird, but give it a shot, will you:

The first woman you loved was to your mother, wasn’t it? did she betray your love?

anita

Dear Adam:

Yes, that relationship where the woman cheated on you may very well be part of the problem. I don’t see any way it can not be part of the problem. That experience has been recorded in your brain. It is part of your past now and has changed you some.

I want to point to something else: you minimize the behavior on the part of your girlfriend, as if it means nothing because she didn’t mean to hurt you. Reality is that it did hurt you. I happened to talk with a man about this issue: the girlfriend… or wife, talking in glowing terms about another man. The man I talked to said to me that he knows how it feels, that it was “very painful” for him. Her intents are irrelevant to the fact that in real life, this kind of behavior is hurtful. So, your hurt is understandable and I wouldn’t minimize it. For your own well being and for the chances of a good relationship with this woman, I suggest that you don’t minimize it.

anita

Dear Adam92:

I too greatly value trust, how can one do without it? It would be a nightmare… and isn’t it almost like a nightmare to you, Adam92, not knowing if she will do it again, compare you, replace you with another guy …even if it will be “only” verbal? Why, verbal has been bad enough, even more hurtful to you, hasn’t it, than being physically cheated by the previous girlfriend?

I suppose you keep thinking about your girlfriend and other guys, past or future, because you don’t trust her anymore to no longer hurt you. So part of you wants to ensure you will not be hurt by reminding you again and again: “Look she hurt me! She will do it again! I don’t want to be hurt again!!!

My previous point, it is not important her intent to the fact that her behavior already hurt you and damaged your trust in her. Trust in her not hurting you again, that is. This is not a finished business with you, her hurting you like she did.

She did what she did, talked about other guys and there are consequences for what she did. She did it, not you. I think you are blaming yourself for being hurt by a behavior that was, in reality, hurtful.

One thing is clear in my mind: if she does this again, talk about another guy in glowing terms, it has to be over. Don’t you agree? If you have the patience and the motivation to be with her still, notice this kind of behavior on her part, notice if it occurs and do not dismiss it. She has more than enough information to know that this behavior is hurtful.

You are overthinking this because you are afraid to be hurt again… and you are already hurt. It hurts now and you don’t want to be vulnerable again.

Would you like to tell me more about your girlfriend? You wrote earlier that she is the kindest soul I will ever meet. How is it so?

anita

Dear Adam92:

Why did she argue with you about her talking about other guys: why did she argue?

You wrote that she is innocent, naive and doesn’t see people for what they are…

My goodness, Adam… what if it is you who is innocent, naive and doesn’t see her for who she is…?

You had other women before her and you think that makes you an experienced, non naive man. And you think because she did not (?) have another man before you (and she may have not!) that makes her naive. What if it was not so?

What if you are naive even though you had other women and what if she is not innocent even if she did not have other men?

And what if she feels a genuine feeling of love for you, that which you see in her eyes and still trying to hurt you at times by that kind of talking about other men and … arguing about it?

See, if you are naive, you wouldn’t know you are naive, would you?

I hope this is not distressing you, but please when calm, think about it and write me back… Your feelings, I am going by your persistent feelings throughout these posts. Let me know.

anita

Dear Adam:

I read every one of your posts on this thread, again and slowly, every word you typed here. These are my thoughts:

Motivation: my motivation here on tiny buddha and in my life otherwise, is to see the truth, what is real. The more of the truth that I see, the healthier I am, and so I believe it is for everyone else. False beliefs, distorted views, delusions is what keeps people sick, unwell, distressed. I am not motivated by you separating from her or marrying her, no such personal motivation.

She is motivated by wanting to be married with you.

Innocence to me means being honest. Being honest is not a property of any particular religion or race or nationality. The fact that she is a muslim does not mean that she is honest with you. Neither is the fact that she had little or no experience with men before you and indication that she is an honest person. If she was a virgin when she met you, does not mean she was or is pure in the sense of being honest and good.

As I read your posts today, these are the things that occurred to me:

She did have feelings for the guy at work, your mate. You saw her feelings for him with your own eyes and you saw it in her behavior: the picking up of the item from the trash and keeping it. The fact that she had feelings of closeness and affection and what not to him is undeniable. So when she told you she did not have feelings for him, she lied to you.

Think about it: if she did not have feelings for him, then she was acting, pretending when she glowed when talking about him, when she used the tone of voice when talking about him… and she picked up the item from the trash for what reason? And talked about him again and again… for what reason?

There is no way around it, no possible explanation except one: she has not been honest with you. In fact, she has been manipulative with you. She intended (yes, intended) to make you jealous with the first guy, this is a manipulation and then when you left the workplace (and maybe she felt abandoned by you, threatened, she did the same thing again, make you jealous, make you worry about her so that you will remain attached to her. She was probably worried that you will forget about her being away from her physically..)

And then when you confronted her with her dishonesty and manipulation (my words), she lied to you and put the blame on you and encouraged you to feel confused, like there is something wrong with you for suspecting her.

I went over with you, Adam, over your childhood a bit and your past relationships, and it seems to me that you survived these two things quite well and the confusion in this relationship is not because of past unresolved issues but because you are dealing with a dishonest, manipulative woman.

She is dishonest and manipulative out of fear and she is greatly motivated to get married with you. She is not necessarily a COLD manipulator. But lots of manipulative, dishonest people do it out of fear- it doesn’t matter why- it still hurts.

You can never reasonably trust her. She does not have it in her at this point to be honest. Whenever she feels threatended- and she will feel threatened even when married to you, she will resort to dishonest manipulations of you again and again. She will also manipulate your children, if you have children with her.

Please think about this and… let go of your past view of her as all good and innocent and honest. Appearances are often not what is true. She fooled you and she fooled others in thinking she is what she is not. Is my view.

And save yourself from a lifetime of confusion and self doubt. Your feelings of being betrayed by her, of her not being worthy of your trust did not lie to you. She lied, not your feelings.

Have a “Beginner’s Mind” on this, is my advice to you. No need to believe or trust me, unlearn what you think you know about her and get to know her from a fresh kind of brain, from the beginning… and please do post again, if you’d like.

Dear Adam:

You did not suggest I have ulterior motives. I suggested to you in the last post that in considering whether a person is worthy of your trust, his or her motivations need to be considered. I stated to you my motivation: interest in what is true.

No one should tell you what is true, it is something for you to find out. In seeing what is true, we need to peel off from what we see any and all distorted views, incorrect assumptions, wishful thinking and so on.

Regarding Dina’s post, how I view it: Dina said that she doesn’t think that your girlfriend was trying to hurt you or to make you jealous: ” “Hm. I dont believe she is trying to hurt you …not that shes trying to make you jealous”

Dina wrote that your girlfriend is trying to be very honest with you and tell you everything so that you will trust her and that she was simply trying to pass the boring time at work. She wrote that your girlfriend did not cheat on you and that it is not fair of you to hold her behavior against her. She wrote that at the beginning, your girlfriend “used a guy against you…trying to make you jealous likely because she was insecure in the relationship.” Dina also wrote: ” This is just one perspective though. I’m sure there are many! Best way to find out is just to talk to her bluntly. Tell her when she brings other guys into the relationship as a threat, it hurts you.”

This is my input on Dina’s post: trying to make you jealous is a manipulative act. The honest way to go about it when your girlfriend feels insecure is to tell you she is scared, not to manipulate you to feel jealous. So the jealousy manipulation is not honesty. Then what she did with the guy feels like she cheated on you and it is a form of cheating. Dina wrote that your girlfriend “used” the other guy: using people is not honest.

I wrote to you that I do agree that your girlfriend operates out of fear of you leaving her or not marrying her or abandoning her. This is why she manipulates you. Likely once you were no longer present with her at work, she was afraid she was losing you and manipulated you again through talk about the guy at work. Dina suggested you talk to your gf bluntly and you did. But she argued with you when you did, instead of telling you she felt insecure and that is what she did. Again she was not honest. And she apologized at times, so not to lose you.

Also, sure it is boring at work.. but it has nothing to do with her being dishonest.

When she is scared again, insecure again, and she will be, she will manipulate you again because this is her pattern. Let’s say you marry her and have to travel for business or the like, or you have a job that takes you away for much of the day… guess what happens then…

Dina does not know your girlfriend and neither do I, not in person. I did read all your posts though and I trust your feelings, the feelings you stated repeatedly. You want to believe that your girlfriend is honest and she seems honest at times, but she is not consistently honest, only when it serves her.

If your girlfriend is this wonderful woman who loves you purely, why is it that you feel so terrible, for so long?

Your own emotions. They are your guide in combination with your logic.

If you don’t see what is real, then you pay the price with your own mental health.

Please post again and best to you in what I hope will be your efforts to look at her from a fresh new perspective.

There are dishonest and manipulative people in the world, some cold and calculating, others impulsive, clumsy, scared… and calculating. See who she is for yourself. If you marry her, do not do it while distressed and confused. Dishonest, manipulative people often operate to confuse and distress the victim so that the … victim does what they want done.

anita

* Dear Dina:

I apologize. I realized after my post to Adam that I should not have answered Adam’s question about YOUR post to him. It was wrong for me to quote and comment on your post. Please forgive me for this wrong doing. I am making a mental note to myself to not do something like this again.

anita

Dear Dina and Adam:

The experience with you, Dina, in the latest posts, greatly humbled me. I realize a day later that I was too eager to get Adam to view his girlfriend the way I do. I became personally motivated, no longer calm and clear. This is why my latest posts to Adam have been so long. In my eagerness I didn’t notice that I shouldn’t have copied, pasted and commented on your reply to Adam. I was too eager to answer all of Adam’s questions and to make him (yes, make him) see what I was seeing.

This is the nature of personal motivation, one that goes beyond simply seeing the truth. It makes people too eager and it makes people hurt other people.

Only after my posts to you, Dina, on this thread, did I realize that it was you that recently reached out to me on another thread to tell me that you appreciate me helping people on this forum. You told me I was kind. Remembering that made me hurt more about hurting you, disappointing you. You reached out to me with good will, a loving act, just like you did with Adam, trying to help, encourage another… and you got hurt in return.

When I disrespected your post to Adam, I did not intend to hurt you. I even thought (a quick thought) that you would like the attention. But my lack of intent to hurt you does not change the fact that I did hurt you. And so, in my efforts to help others (and myself) I hurt you, the person who reached out to me with a loving post before!

I am learning from this that I need to only reply to the original poster on any one thread. Comment not, analyze not, discuss not any post on a thread other than the original poster’s posts. Except for one I can think of at this point: when someone replying is telling his or her personal story, and that person is presently distressed. Then I will (and did in the past) ask that person to tell more of his or her story.

I am learning to not get .. eager, to let people be, think for themselves: the thoughts and choices of another person are not my responsibility.

Dina, i hope you are reading this and I do regret hurting you. I feel pain over having done so, over hurting a person who reached out to me with … a loving act/ post. I am truly, sincerely, authentically sorry.

anita