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March 26, 2018 at 1:18 pm #199587AnonymousGuest
Dear joanna:
The place to start may be the most powerful relationship in your life, the one in which your core beliefs were formed, the one with your mother. In the context of the early relationship with her, one of you was innocent and the other was guilty. Who was innocent, who was guilty?
* will be back in about fifteen hours.
anita
March 26, 2018 at 2:18 pm #199597AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
Thank you for posting this. I can’t imagine why you want to help me. I know you said why but I still can’t.
I guess I was innocent, I remember sitting with her everyday doing homework when she “helped me” doing it, yelling at me and bullying me. I was afraid of doing homework. (I once read your post about being afraid of sitting at breakfast, sorry I read this. It’s probably a different situation, I can’t tell exactly what you meant, but maybe I relate a bit.)Those things like shaving my hair because she thought it was too thin. I think a little bit that if only I had thick hair she wouldn’t have bullied me about it. If only I knew grammar better she wouldn’t have yelled at me. She was angry at me that I made errors in homework. But I also think of other thing she told me, that when I was born she was so happy to have me. That she barely let anyone else hold me, she wanted to be the only one to hold me and take care of me, didn’t let mother in law or anyone. So happy to have me, loved me so much. Loved this idea of a baby that was born. And then I started to disappoint her as I grew up and started becoming “a person”, not just a baby. She started to notice those hair, me being skinny, my defects in speech, not standing straight. So she was angry at me for that flaws. There becomes my feeling of guilt for those features. Because they are all true, so how can I explain that I’m not guilty of them. I am. or I know I’m not but I believed I am.
March 27, 2018 at 3:01 am #199625AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
I asked you yesterday: “In the context of the early relationship with (your mother), one of you was innocent and the other was guilty. Who was innocent, who was guilty?”
Your answer: “how can I explain that I’m not guilty.. I am.., I believe I am.”
Your answer is that in the context of the early relationship with your mother, you were guilty and she was innocent.
Your explanation:”when I was born she was so happy to have me… So happy to have me, loved me so much..And then I started to disappoint her… those hair, me being skinny, my defects in speech, not standing straight. So she was angry at me for that flaws”
Paraphrasing your explanation of your guilt and her innocence: she was a good, loving mother. But then she got to know the baby she loved and found out she was unlovable. So she stopped loving that child and was angry at that unlovable child.
I’ll take a break from your story and share a bit about mine, then return to yours. My mother told me that my birth was very difficult for her. I didn’t turn around, as babies do, and stuck a leg out of her during birth. The doctors gathered around as she was screaming with pain and shame, for having all those people watch her. And then, to make my birth possible and to prevent my leg from being broken, the doctors cut her there so to allow all of me to be taken out, legs first.
I felt guilty for having done that. For causing her all that pain and shame before and during my very birth.
All through my childhood I was very skinny. I was shorter, skinnier and developed much later than my peers at school, through high school.
Years later I found out something curious: my mother was bulimic, and was very thin when pregnant with me, so skinny that her pregnancy didn’t show. It is possible that the reason the baby I was didn’t turn around before birth was her low weight throughout the pregnancy, a consequence of her behavior during her pregnancy with me.
Back to your story: did it cross your mind that it is possible that your hair was thin as a child (if it was), that your speech was imperfect and that you didn’t stand straight as a consequence of her behavior: maybe she didn’t feed you well. Maybe her stress affected your speech and posture?
In other words, if she was a loving, adequate mother, your hair would have been thicker, your speech and posture fine?
anita
March 27, 2018 at 3:32 am #199629AnonymousGuest* more about my story: because of my post to you above, I googled the issue of my birth and I read: “A position where.. the feet first positioning is called a footling breech…Breech pregnancies are common in premature births or when the fetus is smaller than average size”
I believed I was born feet first (footling breech) was because I was a bad baby intending to make my mother suffer and following this intent by not turning my body around. An alternative explanation: the mother didn’t consume enough calories during pregnancy, baby was underweight.
anita
March 27, 2018 at 5:08 am #199645AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
I understand. I understand you shared this with me to show me how ridiculous is my idea of a child being guilty, same as baby being guilty of doing what you “did”.
I also was born with footling breech problem, and my mother was very skinny and didn’t care about herself during pregnancy. She told me she carried heavy shopping, because my father didn’t help her. Anyway she never directly blamed me for that, but I suspect it was then that she started to be ashamed of me because I had some issue with one leg and had to wear something on it for couple of weeks after birth. After that it was normal. I’m not even sure what that was or what it looked like.
Yes I am sure I would have stood straight if she didn’t bully me for that. All children slouched at school because of carrying backpacks. I remember teachers said it. But only my mother picked this up and started to treat me for this (sending me to hospitals – which is one the worst nightmares in my life) and bullying me everyday. I started to slouch more as a consequence of her behavior. Same with speech defect, I don’t have it, I had it when I was a child because she bullied me and it worsened. She caused it. So yes, my flaws, at least some of them were a result of her behavior.
March 27, 2018 at 5:56 am #199657AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
You wrote above that I shared with you my birth story so to show you how ridiculous your guilt is. Not the case, not my intent. I will explain:
As I shared with you the above, I didn’t feel it was ridiculous to think I was guilty of being born feet first. As I typed the above to you, I felt and believed that I am guilty for having been born that way.
It is a surprising thought or concept to me that I am not guilty of that. The dry academic-like understanding that a baby is not guilty for being born breech is just that, a dry piece of knowledge.
Feeling and believing is the wet glue that makes anything illogical feel true and real.
What do you think/ feel?
anita
March 27, 2018 at 8:07 am #199681AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
Well I kind of understand but not really. I know how it is to feel guilty of something that seems illogical. Therefore a concept that I would (or you would) not be guilty of (this particular thing) is hard to understand. When someone says I am not guilty of having thin hair I cant understand it. I have thin hair, it’s a fact, someone repeatedly told me it’s definitely not a quality. It’s deeply rooted, how can I remove it. No one accused me of having been born with my feet in wrong place so I definitely know one cannot be guilty of that. Having said that I can relate to your feeling of guilt in that matter.
I recently thought about things that are rooted so deep. Like for last 12 years I didn’t want a desk in my room because I hated doing homework. Like seeking relief in activities or people who are bad and we know it but it gives relief like nothing else. Can we really remove it so that “the feeling” doesn’t work anymore? Can I remove the guilt I feel, just by justifying it somehow and understanding.I don’t know if I understand it correctly. I know you don’t mean just understanding, it’s more but it’s really hard.
March 27, 2018 at 9:18 am #199695AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
We believe what we were told early, before we had the ability to evaluate information given to us. We can now evaluate. This is only the beginning of changing a core belief that is not true.
First evaluate: true or not. Let’s take your thin hair.
Let’s say you do have thin hair, thinner than many other people, I suppose (it is a relative quality), and let’s say it happens to be a result of your mother not feeding you well before you were born or after. Then you know she is responsible for your thin hair, not you, correct?
Let’s say she fed you well and you have thin hair because of genetics, maybe something passed on from a grandparent. This means you are not responsible for it, correct? I mean, you had no choice on the matter, it was a gene or genes passed on to you.
As a matter of fact, is there any circumstance at all that makes it your responsibility, that as a young girl (before you treated your hair), you had thin hair?
anita
March 27, 2018 at 12:03 pm #199723AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
Okay. No, it is not my responsibility. But I still need to think about it a lot to understand it.
March 28, 2018 at 4:54 am #199779AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
There are a few things in your recent posts that I didn’t attend to or not enough, and would like to do so this morning, your quotes and my thoughts:
March 26: “if only I had thick hair she wouldn’t have bullied me about it”- she would have bullied you for having thick hair, or hair that is too dark or too light or unruly, or too straight. If she didn’t bully you about your hair, she would have bullied you about your body posture, and she did.
“If only I knew grammar better she wouldn’t have yelled at me”- she would have yelled at you for not knowing math, or for not writing your “a” the way she prefers it written.
“She was angry at me that I made errors in homework”- everyone makes error in homework. She did too when she was a child. But notice what a huge error she was making terrorizing you as she did, causing you all this misery. All those homework errors are forgotten and of no consequence. Her yelling at you, on the other hand, is not and can not be forgotten.
“when I was born she was so happy to have me”- how do you know that? You weren’t there. She told you that she was… and you believed her. We do believe what our parents say. We don’t question them. Not as children, we don’t. Question it now.
“That she barely let anyone else hold me. she wanted to be the only one to hold me”- does it mean that a mother who lets other adults hold her baby is not a loving mother? Her motivation can be possessiveness, such as: this is my doll, my toy! I am not sharing!
“Loved this idea of a baby that was born”- a doll, a toy to play with?
“then I started to disappoint her as I grew up and started becoming ‘a person'”- and not a doll to play with as she wishes, an unchangeable doll, a toy that looks the same all the time, same expression, moving only if she moves her. Total control of an object.
“She started to notice those hair, me being skinny, my defects in speech, not standing straight”- the first three read to me like consequences of her behavior and the last one, a consequence of a very thin girl carrying a heavy backpack to school.
Notice, your mother’s hair can be criticized, and everything else about her body can be criticized if there is someone motivated to do so.
March 27: “I also was born with footling breech problem, and my mother was very skinny and didn’t care about herself during pregnancy”- I must have been very tired yesterday to miss this remarkable similarity in our experiences. What are the chances? Less than 5%, I read.
So you were a very thin child because your mother didn’t eat well when pregnant with you. And then she blamed you for the direct consequences of her behavior.
“she never directly blamed me for that” (the footling breech birth)- neither did my mother. She told me the story repeatedly, that is all. Children take the blame even if it is not stated.
“she started to be ashamed of me because I had some issue with one leg… for couple of weeks after birth”- you were born breech, like me, most likely as a result of your mother not eating enough and you being underweight. She felt ashamed of the .. consequence of her behavior.
“All children slouched at school because of carrying backpacks”- would have been nice if your mother talked to the principal at school so to reduce the weight in your backpack, wouldn’t it, instead of blaming you and taking you to hospital.
“When someone says I am not guilty of having thin hair I can’t understand it. I have thin hair, it’s a fact”- it is also a fact, no less definite of a fact, that you are not responsible for having thin hair. It is likely that your mother is responsible for that, not you. Because she “didn’t care about herself during pregnancy” and she caused you a lot of unnecessary distress throughout your childhood.
“for last 12 years I didn’t want a desk in my room because I hated doing homework”- a consequence of her behavior (“she ‘helped me’ doing it, yelling at me and bullying me”, March 26).
Summary: what she criticized about you were things that were not only not of your choosing, not your responsibility, but often, the consequences of her choosing, her responsibility.
I gave you an example a long time ago, a person stabbing another than blaming the person stabbed for bleeding.
anita
March 28, 2018 at 4:31 pm #199859AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
It’s weird because for most of my life she used to brag about how she always sit with me and never neglected my homework so that despite living in a home where my dad was an alcoholic, I was never neglected because she cared about this homework. That was her exact version of this situation. However one time a year ago she once said something like.. “your father always making me nervous…and I sometimes used to scold you… sorry I always yelled at you during this homework” and when she told me this I felt we both knew the previous version was not true. Like we knew it was made up (not exactly because he was an alcoholic and I always did homework), partially true but true in a way that it covered another *hidden* version. Like someone beats you and then hugs you and comforts you, and says to people “we always hug, you know” and then he says to you: sorry I beat you all those times. And your reaction is: ???. Because he obviously did beat you but you are both saying different version, so what’s with this apologizing now. Are we still saying the first version or what, is it still valid. A bit confusing, as she is still the same person and still bullies me about about everything else.
Yes that similarity, I thought you just ignored it. She never accused me of it directly but she also always reminds me of her labour, she had a cs, and she thinks she was starting to wake up from anesthesia, so they gave her more, a lot, that after this operation they couldn’t wake her up. They gave her too much because she started to be awake, and it could have ended badly. Following your quote “She told me the story repeatedly, that is all. Children take the blame even if it is not stated.” Everytime she told me this, before it started to sound nagging after 100th time, I felt like saying “I’m sorry mom, sorry you could have died because of me”. I don’t know if it felt like any experience for her, as she found out about this dangerous situation afterwards so she was alive and well, she wasn’t aware *she can die right this moment* except for this feeling of waking up. But again, even if it was, what can I do to make it up for her. I always felt weird hearing this, when I was little this story was scary and too much for me, and I didn’t understand it, when I was 10-13 I felt awkward hearing about labour, when older 15-20 I felt embarrassed and ashamed talking about, again, *labour* in this context, now it feels…just nagging. Just her, boring me again with this story which I never understood and even when I was old enough to understand it never stopped being awkward, and I definitely can’t relate to this and sympathize with her. Sorry if I sound harsh but it’s a scary story from my childhood, she bores me with this and harasses me with it for years, so what does she expect me to do, I sometimes felt like saying: ‘just give me a fucking break already, I don’t know why I did this with my leg, I can’t even fucking remember this, I was zero years old!’ Often I feel she wants to tell me that I was so neglectful (that’s sooo me, right) that I didn’t even took my own birth seriously, and she could die, because I did this stupid thing with my legs. And if I at least tried to make it up to her, and show her I improved myself since then, and I am tidy and reliable, so she would see that I regret this “episode” and I’ve changed. But no, I still can’t even be punctual, tidy, and can’t clean my own room properly because that’s what kind of person I am. And this episode at labour that could kill her was not an one time accident, I could kill her and I still laugh in her face, because I’m irresponsible, untidy and neglectful. Honestly, Anita, I hope this is not the case, and that I exaggerate, because if it is true, it’s the most insane thing in the world. Maybe it may seem irrelevant in regard of your question of being guilty-innocent, I just need to think it over and understand it more, even if it’s an insane thought, thank you for making me see this better. Flaws she blames me for, it’s enough for me that it’s not my responsibility, it lets me let go of my blame a little bit. I need to think about it day by day, and get used to this idea. Thank you for that. I feel a little bit of relief thinking about this. Anyway it’s a curious thing that she probably is guilty of them. I wonder if she blames herself.
I burned a spot on my face today, and then made it worse. I got scared a bit, I didn’t do anything for past 3 days which is a lot now, and in the evening I just did this before I even realized. I think I’ll leave my face alone tomorrow. I need to force myself to stop, I’m afraid of how it will look tomorrow. I need to stop, just feel this urge so much, I’m not even sure if I feel it or think about it, I just start doing it, thinking about something else and suddenly I see what I’ve done. It’s always like this, never on purpose, always automatically. I’m afraid this spot won’t disappear. Tom called me yesterday, he told me we should just stay friends. He said he had an argument with his girlfriend and she is crazy jealous about me, meaning our past ‘relationship’, she doesn’t know we met twice (I don’t know how do I ever appeared in their conversation now) and that she knows he is hiding something and texts *someone*. I asked ‘Can we still see each other’ I don’t know why I asked this. I think I wanted to check how serious he is about it and I wanted to hear the obvious answer. He said.. ‘I guess we can. I want to.’ He apologized for this leaving etc. I was so overwhelmed, and exhausted, I think this was the reason I did this to my face today. I cant deal with all this. I never wanted this, I regret meeting him because it was humiliating, and I don’t want to be the person she would ever suspect for seducing him, because he will obviously say I imposed myself if she ever finds out. I went for a walk yesterday, sometimes it helped but it doesn’t help anymore. I’ll try to spend some time in a park tomorrow, it calms me sometimes. I’m thinking of taking medications, I took xanax for anxiety in the past but it resulted in more bad than good. So no. Sorry if talking to me is overwhelming. I had panic attacks every night for last two weeks. Days are just exhausting breaks. I really don’t feel well.
March 29, 2018 at 4:05 am #199903AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
You are welcome and thank you for giving me this opportunity to learn more about myself and my life through my communication with you.
You wrote about your mother: “I wonder if she blames herself”.
Notice this: you expressed many times on this thread how much you suffer from your perceived guilt, and how you are angry at yourself (because of your perceived guilt). You wrote that those thoughts, those voices in your head (that preach to you that you are guilty) won’t let you live.
It is very unpleasant, to feel guilty and angry at oneself. Your mother doesn’t like these feelings either and she found a way to not feel them: every time she blames you, she is not blaming herself. Every time she is angry at you, she is not angry at herself.
She uses you this way, since the very beginning and still, “she is still the same person and still bullies me about everything else.”
Did you ever consider ending all contact with your mother and do you see any benefit in doing so?
anita
March 29, 2018 at 8:11 am #199947AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
I feel more free, I know it looks like I feel worse but I’m overwhelmed with everything. Just like you said, distress and anxiety come back and it’s an opportunity to take a step forward. It’s one of the best things I learned from you, to keep going and know that everything passes, I just have to handle it better and better with everytime. That’s all I have to do, and it’s good enough.
What exactly are you learning though conversation with me? I get the feeling it’s not pleasant to you, not because you made me think so, but my own assumptions. I also wanted to ask you if this story I shared with you seems insane and exaggerated.
My other question was: I know you suggested that your mother wouldn’t go to psychotherapy or wouldn’t want to self improve. What would she say to you if you told her all this? I think my mother would say I’m ungrateful, phrase she likes to say to me , it doesn’t translate but it means something like ” I knew you would say something like this, it’s so your kind of behavior “, and that I disappointed her and she feels hurt. Once I told her I was afraid of her and she said: ” thank you, that’s how grateful you are, saying those things to hurt me, thank you so much, that’s so your style.. ”
Yes I would like to end contact with her. For past month she is spending almost whole week in the other place. Visiting on Fridays for couple of hours, cleaning and complaining and gets back. I don’t leave my room sometimes or I “on purpose” come home late. It was like that since I was 19 or 20, she moved out but visited, later she visited less and less often. And last year she came back around the time I started posting here.
There are moments I feel more cheerful and carefree, in a good way. When she is not around for long time (I forgot how it feels because she lived here for past 5 months) I start to feel.. I remember this feeling, it’s weird, like I do something and I don’t judge myself or feel ashamed. Yes I think it’s a lack of feeling of shame. I’m not sure if it translates well. Even when I dated Tom and I knew it was wrong, I felt it was even more wrong because I knew how she would criticize it. Once I was worried I might be pregnant (my anxiety mostly, and overreacting) the worst thing about it was her judging voice in my head, and shame in front of her. Of course that would be unfortunate, because we weren’t a loving couple, and I know he is not a good man but surprisingly it wasn’t the worst. He told me this many times he would even want to have a child. He never freaked out, he used to call me everyday and tried to calm me there’s nothing to worry about and even if, it’s fine, he’s 30 years old and he’s got money, house, and a child doesn’t scare him. So my anxiety wasn’t from the fact that I was afraid he would run away and pretend he doesn’t know me. My anxiety which caused me to go crazy at one particular time was mostly, if not only, because of her. It scared me to death. Her voice in my head, her judging me, making me feel ashamed, and bullying me. Sometimes I was thinking about it, what is it I am so afraid of that I cant sleep or eat, I literally couldn’t eat for 2 or 3 days sometimes, couldn’t function normally. I realized I’m not afraid of having a child. And I imagined what it would be like if she didn’t exist, and for a short moment I felt relief.
If I had this child, and she wouldn’t be there I would forgive myself.
So when she’s not around I feel free. I don’t judge myself for my own mistakes, small or big mistakes, I am forgiving to myself. I let myself live. I don’t feel shame. Do you feel similar?
March 29, 2018 at 9:40 am #199963AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
About what I have learned so far from communicating with you. First I will explain this: there are different levels of learning: the dry, academic, intellectual learning, such as how many people are living in a particular city and there is the emotional learning. With the first kind you learn something (ex. number of people living in a city) and you are done with that learning, as the number published will not change until the next census.
The second kind- there is more and more and more to learn. There is a deeper and deeper knowing of the same thing.
Because of my most recent communication with you, I got to know deeper, I learned more that I am not guilty for having been born breech. There were many other deeper knowing and more learning that I experienced throughout your thread, a whole lot more.
About your assumption that it is unpleasant for me to communicate with you- not true. Sometimes I feel uncomfortable when communicating with you because it so happens that I am tired or not feeling very well. Sometimes I rush. But never because I don’t like you. I like you throughout our contact here.
I don’t remember mentioning anything about my mother, therapy and self improvement.
Regarding your mother telling you that you are ungrateful, my mother told me that many, many.. many, many times. And like your mother, my mother too told me many… many times that I “disappointed her and she feels hurt.”
You wrote: “When she is not around for long time.. I start to feel… (not) ashamed. it’s a lack of feeling of shame… So when she’s not around I feel free. I don’t judge myself for my own mistakes, small or big mistakes. I am forgiving to myself. I let myself live”-
How about not being around her for a long, long time… for the rest of your life?
In comparison to your mother, your father was a good man, in comparison. This is why you felt safe in his house, after their divorce.
In comparison to your mother, Tom is a good man. This is why you feel safe around him, and why you crave his company.
Problem is, it doesn’t take much for a person to be a better person than your mother. And so, you end up with a man like Tom. Better but.. not good.
anita
March 29, 2018 at 10:32 am #199981AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
When she would not be here for the rest of my life.. I sometimes think about it. I wonder if I would ever miss her. I think not. Sometimes when we don’t see each other long time she calls me, likes to talk to me. I no longer do. I know she few times cut contact with her own mother and suffered because of that, and I never wanted this. I never wanted to cut contact and hate each other, but also when I looked at her, her being over 60, and missing and suffering because of an argument with her mother, being so dependent on her mother, waiting for her to call… I don’t want to be that either. I think it’s pathetic. Like a child who needs her mother approval, or her mother’s hug because she can’t go on with her life when her mother is angry with her. From those two options I would choose cutting contact even if it means hating each other, as it probably would.
Regarding your mother you mentioned only that to fix your relationship (theoretically) it would require her willing to self improve, so I assumed either she wouldn’t want to, or you never tried. Sorry, just my assumptions.
I wonder what else you learned through my posts. If there was anything, I’m happy I could show you this somehow.
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