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March 7, 2018 at 3:28 am #196189AnonymousGuest
Dear joanna:
More accurately, I get tired every day. That is natural, to get tired. I used to feel exhausted, that is, very tired, extremely tired a whole lot in the past, especially when I was a child, a teenager, younger, because of the anxiety. The anxiety is exhausting. Because of the healing process, it has been many months that I feel less tired than I used to.
You asked: “Is this really so uncommon, accusing of bad intentions?” Yes, it is very uncommon for an individual to accuse others of bad intentions repeatedly “hundreds or thousands (of times) even, every day sometimes”. It probably seems natural and normal to you (words you used) because, like you wrote, you got so used to it. Your brain was formed with your mother being the main force in your life, with her accusations as.. the unfortunate normal.
By “This is why it is important…” I did not mean that I don’t want to advise you for some reason, not at all. I do want to keep communicating with you, absolutely. What I meant was to encourage you to take on your healing process with you being the one to decide, the one in power to decide what is true and what is not true. For example, I might get carried away with the similarities between your mother and mine and suggest to you that your mother is like mine in ways she is not. In that case, I hope you question what I wrote and decide for yourself that what I wrote is not true. Same in regard to what anyone says to you- do not accept it as the truth- evaluate and decide for yourself.
I am glad that you are not sorry anymore that you don’t have the kind of job your mother wanted you to have, looking like your mother wanted you to look, and so on. And I am glad you feel stronger, eyes opened, more confident.
You wrote: “I will never let go of the fact that my father is dead and that he didn’t save me from this life… so he (the man) is still my hope. I can’t let him go… I need so much for him to be my hero… I can’t help feeling it… (he) never was a hero I wanted him to be, he just has those features my father had, he is distant, cold like him so he seems like a safe place so much.”
We only know what we experience. We don’t know what we didn’t experience. You experienced your mother as aggressive, accusing, torturing, really. In comparison, your father was the safe place because he was not aggressive to you, he didn’t do to you the harmful things that she did. Now as an adult, you know the same you did as a child: safety is with the person who is not aggressive and is distant and cold, like your father.
The experience you didn’t have as a child is having a parent who is not aggressive and is attentive to you in loving ways. And so, you don’t expect this kind of experience. You… don’t know it exists.
You wrote that you may see this man again, “I don’t know what must happen so that I would finally be over him”- what must happen, I think, is that you experience what you haven’t experienced so far, and that is a non aggressive person who is attentive to you in loving ways. Then you will know it exists and once you know it exists, you will want to experience it.
Some people get this new experience in quality psychotherapy where for the first time they get treated non-aggressively and attentively in loving ways (professionally, of course). Following this experience, over time, they are able to detect such individuals who are also not aggressive and lovingly attentive and be drawn to such, forming a relationship with such an individual.
It is about somehow experiencing what you didn’t experience before.
anita
March 7, 2018 at 11:15 am #196253AnonymousInactiveDear Anita,
I remembered today one situation from the past: when we were on some trip organized by my mother’s company, I was in high school. There were mostly her colleagues from work. One day I was standing in a queue of 15 people, and one lady was standing in the back, and when I turned away and was not looking she went to this toilet before me. My mother saw this and came to me angry that she went first, and I said it’s okay, and then she started yelling “you’re so short and people always mistreat you ” like she was angry at me for those particular reasons, that I’m short and that people mistreat me or bully me (assuming they mistreat me because I’m short). Funny thing this wasn’t even disrespectful what this woman did. I guess she didn’t do it to show me I’m less worthy or anything, this act of going first to the toilet. Probably didn’t even care who stood before her and probably the fact I’m short wasn’t crucial here (in a way that she wouldn’t mistreat a tall person by going before her to the toilet). What this woman did didn’t hurt me as much as those accusing words of her. I don’t even understand those words, not even now. Maybe you would. (There were many times she said similar things to me so this is just one of them).
Now thinking about this, I feel like I’ve been – not exactly as you stated it “told how to feel” but more of “manipulated into thinking that I am/feel”. Manipulated into thinking I’m short, have thin hair, I lisp, etc. My mother’s opinion of me: I am messy, I never clean, I am always offended and oversensitive, I’m short of course, have thin hands, things she seemed she liked about me or things that were pretty about me, for example darker skin like my dad’s she always talked about it with “jealousy” not very nice, always mocking me for this. Same with eyes or lips like my father’s, she never said it nice, always “those eyes you have, not like mine”, “you never have to get suntan, always look tanned, it’s not right, not fair, and those big eyes you have, like your dad” – more like accusation, like I had to say “sorry about this, mom. ”
That’s how I feel lately, being manipulated into thinking those opinions about me. I never hated the fact I resemble my father though, on the contrary those are features I like in myself.
May I ask, what did your mother often accused you of?
March 7, 2018 at 12:15 pm #196259AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
Regarding your first paragraph: you were waiting in line to go to the bathroom. A woman who stood behind you in line went first while you were looking away. Next, your mother angrily and loudly blamed you for being short and therefore causing your mistreatment.
My understanding of the situation: maybe the woman had to go and chose to do one wrong thing (going before you) instead of let’s say urinating into her clothes right there and then. If that was the case, I would think she would apologize before or after the event, explaining her great emergency. If she didn’t apologize, reads to me that she did disrespect you and the social custom of waiting in line.
When your mother yelled, she may have intended for the woman to hear her. She was too scared to directly confront the woman (assuming she didn’t after the yelling) and indirectly expressed her anger at the woman. She was definitely angry at you, the offended.
Here are two terms, italicized: the outer critic is the audible voice you heard when your mother accused you of being short and causing our mistreatment. The inner critic is the silent voice in her head blaming herself, among other things, for being faulty this or that way and causing her mistreatment by others (from childhood to the present day).
Sometimes she gives herself a break from that inner critic by turning that critic outward, hence the outer critic.
Regarding your second paragraph: I will list what the outer critic said to you and in parenthesis what the inner critic may be saying to her at other times (it is a silent voice, don’t know what it says, she may not know herself, not being aware of it. It doesn’t necessarily saying the very same things as the outer critic is saying):
“You are short!” (You are ugly). You lisp! (Your voice is too thick) “You are messy”! (Your own father doesn’t love you even though you were neat and organized. Something is very wrong with you!)”You are oversensitive! (I hate you when you feel hurt, you whiny baby!) “Your eyes are like your father’s! (Your eyes are too small!) etc.
Regarding your question: my mother often accused me of intending to hurt her emotionally, then planning how to achieve that. And then executing my sometimes elaborate plan over a period of time until my objective was achieved and she was indeed hurt by me. She would tell me what my alleged plan was, and how I allegedly went about it step by step.
She accused me of not able to endure seeing her happy and making sure she wasn’t happy for long.
anita
March 9, 2018 at 1:16 am #196447AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
What exactly was those situations in you didn’t want her to be happy or wanted to hurt her, in her opinion?
Also my question: is that inner voice directed to me? That I’m “ugly” ? or it is directed to her and she says outloud the same things to me.
Yesterday my mother told me that not only she sees “how I am”, because my friend who’s at my house sometimes, she also “nods” when my mother complains about me so she supports this opinion of me being messy, not organized etc. So it is not only her who sees how a person I am.
It’s a struggle between my recently new thinking that it is not I who is flawed, and she is just bullying me – and her convincing me IT IS ME, and other people think that too. She even said grandma recently said something about me making carrot salad in the wrong way (I don’t blame grandma she cooks a lot and she says a lot of advices, doesn’t criticize, I learned a lot from her) but my mother perceives it as “other people criticize you too, they see how bad you are so I must be right about you being this and that.”
March 9, 2018 at 3:22 am #196453AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
Regarding you being messy: it may be true, but not because you were born-to-be messy, not because you have a Mess Genetics or that you were born faulty that way, but because your mother severely discouraged you from being neat. She complained but discouraged you from doing anything about what she was complaining. When you had your stuff in the kitchen, she complained about the kitchen being messy but vehemently refused that you fix the mess by removing your things from the kitchen.
And so, other people see the mess and confirm, indeed you are messy. And they are correct, you are messy… because you were directed to be messy by the most powerful person in your life, your mother.
If your mother encouraged you to be neat, you would have been neat and people would say: how neat you are, joanna!
Regarding your second question in your post above: basically, your mother’s parents’ critical voice was directed at your mother when she was a child. As an adult, your mother is redirecting that voice toward you. This is the nature of abuse, every generation redirects that voice so to hit the next generation.
Your last two lines: “my mother perceives it as ‘other people criticize you too, they see how bad you are so I must be right about you being this and that”- how vicious your mother is, to drill her message into you repeatedly and relentlessly, employing the help of others in her drilling.
anita
March 9, 2018 at 3:53 am #196455AnonymousInactiveSo she’s right with everything she says about me. She’s right about me being messy, and probably other things like my thin hair etc. I asked my friend about this and she said she never thought my mother would think her “nodding” is a support of her criticism and she would never criticize me for being this or that. Also she said she doesn’t care and rather it’s a kind of humorous when she says I left some clothes or bag on the floor again, not in bad intention to criticize me. She was surprised and said it’s very “twisted”my mother uses it to support her criticism and that there’s a lot of things in everyone to criticize and you always have a choice whether you want to bring someone down by pointing this out everyday on and on, or whether you just let someone live. What do you think about it? Am I *the reason* my mother complains about me? Will my mother magically stop complaining and bringing me down if I start being amazingly neat? Or am I allowed to be whatever I am and whatever habits I have. Am I allowed to be messy (if it is what I really am) or is my mother right that I am almost ruining her life and making her life miserable with my leaving clothes on the floor etc. Please be honest with this.
My mother once said she moved out of her family home because she could not stand hearing grandma’s complaining every day about her. thats why she got married and moved out. And that’s why after divorce we lived at grandmas house only for 5 months because my mother couldn’t stand grandma’s complaing about how she got married badly and had a bad husband, she couldn’t stand hearing this every day on and on. So we moved out even if we didn’t have enough money and place to live. She just couldn’t live with her anymore.
March 9, 2018 at 4:49 am #196459AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
You asked me to be honest with you. I was always honest with you, always will be. It doesn’t take an effort on my part to be honest with you, or with anyone. Honesty is my passion. It allows me to see and learn. Honesty is not something I do for you. It is who I am.
I believe that seeing reality for what it is- helps us, never hurts us. And so, I will not say something to you for the purpose of you feeling better. Because I don’t believe it will be good for you. I say only what I believe is true to reality.
About your mother being right about you- imagine this: person A stabs person B and then complains: Person B is messy, blood everywhere! Is person A correct? yes. Person B is messy, blood everywhere, sticky, messy.
In a less dramatic way, yes, I suppose your mother is right about you being messy (I never observed your room, your living areas, so I don’t know, I am assuming you are).
You asked: “Am I the reason my mother complains about me?” Back to my bloody example, if person B wasn’t there, there wouldn’t be any blood, so if you ignore the fact that there was a stabbing, then you can say: if person B wasn’t there, there wouldn’t be any blood, any mess. So Person B brought about the mess.
You asked: “Will my mother magically stop complaining and bringing me down if I start being amazingly neat?”
Back to my example: person B cleans herself, cleans the wound, cleans the floor, gone is the sticky blood, the floor is smooth, better than before, no sign of mess. Person A still holds a knife, still driven to stab. So she stabs the newly recovered person B again, and there is blood all over again. “I told you that you are messy!” A neighbor comes over, and person A says to the neighbor: look how messy person B is! And the neighbor says: Person B sure is messy, why only an hour ago she was messy. Messy again, so soon, my goodness, she is so very messy!
Your grandmother abused your mother and she is abusing you. She is motivated to abuse you, so she keeps doing so.
anita
March 9, 2018 at 9:01 am #196527AnonymousInactiveDear Anita,
Thank you for telling this, yes I already know you are always honest, anyway thank you for telling me this “I will not say something to you for the purpose of you feeling better. Because I don’t believe it will be good for you.” I really appreciate this. To be clear I didn’t ask for honesty for the reason it is opposed to your not being honest, of course that wasn’t the case. Just thought maybe your opinion would be harsh about this and If you’d feel unsure whether to tell me this, I still want to hear it. I hope you didn’t feel offended. May I ask did you ever talk to anyone about your mother besides psychotherapy?
March 9, 2018 at 9:18 am #196533AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
Maybe I felt offended for a very short moment, maybe. I am not offended now. Regarding me being “harsh about this”- why would I be harsh when being harsh hurts you. I can be honest without being harsh. The people who have been harsh with you so far in your life, none of it was necessary, none that I can imagine, was necessary.
Yes, I used to talk about my mother to anyone who’d listen. Problem is I didn’t believe what I was saying, similar to you: some times you believe that your mother mistreats you and at other times you believe that she is not, that she is only responding to a faulty person, the way anyone will respond to a faulty person. Isn’t it so?
anita
March 9, 2018 at 10:01 am #196565AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
I am really sorry if you felt offended. As I explained it was a way of my saying, didn’t have to do with me suspecting you wouldn’t be honest, so please remember that. I value you greatly as a person and trust you greatly as well.
Yes you are right, there are moments I am confused when she convinces me how bad person I am and supports it with proofs.You are one of two, maybe three people who made me believed she abuses me. However, finally you made me understand.
March 9, 2018 at 10:20 am #196571AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
Worry not, if you can about me getting offended. I understand and in a similar way I offend people as well. No one is aware enough, attentive enough, all day long so to be able to perfectly express themselves. Funny thing, I worry too. A few posts ago I wrote “Dear Joanna”, using a capital J (I forgot to correct the automatic spell feature that capitalizes the J each time) and I worried that I offended you. It was an automatic worry, stemming from my core belief that I am a bad, faulty person that is likely to offend another by any possible mistake, any.
Yes, joanna, of course you were and are abused, mistreated, clearly.
anita
March 10, 2018 at 3:40 pm #196677AnonymousInactiveDear Anita,
I hope you don’t have any bad feeling about this misunderstanding. As I said many times I value and respect you greatly and I care about your feelings.
Recent days were a bit overwhelming. yesterday I had a feeling, it’s hard to explain. Ever since I started to control my self harm, I noticed that when I finally do it, it gives me noticeable relief. I don’t know if it’s good or bad. It’s good because it’s a relief I do not get that often so I know I can live without it, and it’s fine. But it’s a bit bad because when I do feel it I kind of realize it’s a relief nothing else can give me besides self harming. I read about substitutes like doing sports, etc making yourself feel something in physical way so that it helps. Yes, it helps a bit.
Feeling of guilt has returned, beating myself up for harming myself. Just yesterday, this one episode. I’ll try to let go of this feeling of guilt and I probably won’t do this again in a long time. Trying to get rid of that guilt, because it’s even worse than self harm itself.
Besides, this month I’ve been doing chemical peels on prescription to get rid of some small scars on my face after last year’s acne so the urge to pick on my face and to “hurt it” is fulfilled/satisfied for a moment. I have “a permission” now to not leave my face alone for a next week or so, but then it’s over and I will have to leave it alone and not touch it. I recently have two feelings, if you’re interested in hearing this, of course, : one, that I want my face to look finally good like it looked a year ago before this acne, and I can’t wait to finish this treatment, and two, when I recently see that it’s getting better I feel happy but also I feel the need to destroy it, I don’t even know what is this feeling. It’s like when I looked worse, somehow this urge to self harm was satisfied on its own, because my face was “destroyed” in a way. So I again feel I don’t deserve to have a pretty face and when I see it, I want to look ugly again. Looking ugly makes me feel miserable and bad, and adds guilt but I still want to do this to myself. Of course with all I know to this day, I can say I probably will never do anything that would leave scar, because I know better but that feeling versus my conscious knowledge about my self harm.. It’s so tricky and evil almost, so impertinent. It’s laughing to my face, this feeling. It denies logic and my self awareness. I seriously have to ask myself and convince myself that there is no reason I should look ugly, I look for reasons to look ugly and say to myself that there are none so I should leave it alone, I look at other people and say to myself “They don’t do that to themselves so apparently this is not normal what I *plan* to do so seems like there is no need (well I don’t plan it, I really don’t want to, but those feelings are so obsessive I need to handle them somehow)”
March 11, 2018 at 4:31 am #196707AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
About offending me, you have not. You did not use abusive words toward me, you did not display aggression toward me. You were repeatedly kind and gracious throughout our long communication here. You were kind and gracious to all members who replied to you.
You wrote: “is my mother right that I am almost ruining her life and making her life miserable with my leaving clothes on the floor etc. Please be honest with this.”
On my end: there was some discomfort about “be honest with this”- why the request to be honest, and why on this? Is joanna suggesting that I was dishonest with her before, or that I was dishonest about that?
On your end: you were emotional, the question you asked was very important to you, so you let me know how important it is for you that I tell you my true answer by adding: be honest, as in: don’t compromise the truth so to make me feel better, I really, really need to know the answer!
Following a moment of discomfort on my part, I realized what you meant and the very temporary discomfort was over. I understood that you did not suggest that I was dishonest before (a non-offense) but that my answer is very important to you. As a matter of fact it is a compliment to me that you trust me with a question that is so important to you.
You are safe with me, joanna. You can type what you want, don’t be afraid to offend me. I trust you to be the good person that you are. You are not… inclined to offend.
And to the answer of your question quoted above: no, your mother is not right. She was and is wrong. You did not and are not making her life miserable. I am sure of that.
Regarding self harm: part of you (thoughts and emotions) takes after your mother, believing that you are bad and deserve punishment, and like any person who is angry at another person and then punishes that other person, the punisher experiences relief, as in: the bad one got what she deserved! Justice was done!
You wrote about your face: “I feel the need to destroy it… I don’t deserve to have a pretty face and when I see it, I want to look ugly again”-
back to the question you asked two days ago: “is my mother right that I am almost ruining her life and making her life miserable..?” if your mother is right, that means you are a bad person. Only a bad person will make her own mother miserable, intentionally and repeatedly and for years! And a bad person doesn’t deserve a pretty face!
If your mother is wrong, and you really did not and do not make her life miserable (other people did this job long before you were born to her), if your intent all along was to make your mother happy (the intent of all young children, naturally), then you were and you are a good person. A person deserving a pretty face.
An added complication when you harm your face is: what is wrong with me for doing this… Thing is, harming your face is a consequence of abuse you suffered and still suffer. Don’t blame yourself, if you can, for a consequence of someone else’s doing. As you increase your awareness that such behavior is a consequence of abuse, and as you continue to challenge what she told you, believe it less and less, the skin picking inclination will weaken and weaken and be more and be more and more under your control, a subject to your choosing.
anita
March 11, 2018 at 3:15 pm #196773AnonymousInactiveDear Anita
Thank you for understanding me. Yes that was exactly the case, I could as well ask this question to anyone, but I guess I wanted the honesty I could really count on, so I asked you. Thank you for seeing this.
So I’m punishing myself and I feel a relief because I did to myself what “I deserved”. I understand this. Also when you are saying to not blame myself for those thoughts I kind of feel more calm. I don’t hate those thoughts then. Hating them and wanting to get rid of them does not help. So I accept that those thoughts come because they are a result of a something. And I believe you when you are saying it will weaken and weaken. Thank you for this.
March 12, 2018 at 8:20 am #196847AnonymousGuestDear joanna:
You are welcome. I am pleased to read that you believe me. Because I believe that I am indeed worthy of your trust. Your recent post is positive, more progress on your part. Post again anytime and remember, progress when continuous, is not linear, distress does return after times of calm. And when it does, it is an opportunity to make more progress.
anita
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