Hello all,

I’ll offer a bit of my own story as an example and how things have turned out for me. It might not seem to answer the original question, but since there has been discussion about codependency and holding back feelings, I think it might be appropriate.

I grew up being very codependent, and other people’s needs were much more important to me than my own. I don’t think I even understood my own needs. I was just focused on trying to keep everything peaceful and safe; if other people would feel good, then I would feel good. So I handled myself through handling other people. I did so through subtle emotional manipulation. Of course, I didn’t see it as manipulation, but that’s what it was. To me it was just business as usual.

A few years ago I met someone who started to point out to me the reality of my modus operandi. I had heard before that the codependent way of dealing was actually manipulation, but I discarded the idea, as it was too difficult for me to accept. That me, who was always so worried about other people, would actually be doing something wrong? Anyway, occasionally, he would point out to me that I was trying to make him feel or do something with subtle ways. To me it was just normal way of behaving, so it felt weird to see it from another perspective. He told me that if I needed something, or wanted to discuss something, then all I had to do was say so. It should be common sense, but for me it felt like the most groundbreaking idea 🙂 That I should actually directly say what I wanted?

After this I started to be more aware of my behaviour patterns. It was actually quite horrible, because I noticed that every time I opened my mouth and words came out, I was manipulative. I said things that I thought the other person would want to hear, or that would make them do something or feel something. When I tried to examine what it was that I myself actually wanted or needed, I had no idea. I couldn’t comprehend such simple task.

My relationship to this person broke down and that was the catalyst to my recovery. It was too much to take that my lifelong behaviour patterns would’ve cost me someone so precious. It has now been around 2,5 years of work, setbacks and breakthroughs.

What Matt is saying sounds incredibly simple, but that is exactly what I have been trying to practice. If you want something, ask. The other person might say “no”, or they might say “yes”. I have to say though, the feeling that you get from expressing your desires honestly and then getting a “yes”, without any manipulation, is such a rush. It’s amazing. Interestingly, getting a “no” is much easier to handle now than when it was when I wasn’t communicating honestly. It doesn’t crush me. It’s so simple now. You ask for something, if you don’t get it, then fair enough. Then you can move on and you don’t have to keep wondering if you should’ve said it in a different way or in a different time.

I’m aware that I still might have ways of dealing with things that aren’t straightforward. I’m aware of my possible unawareness, let’s put it that way. Which is why I have asked people to tell me if they perceive something that I can’t see, and which is why I have a tendency to point out something I see in others, even if it’s something they might not want to hear.

I danced around other people my whole life and I was joined by other similar people who danced around me. Looking back at it now, life was horrible. Now, when something arises in me, I acknowledge it, accept it and then deal with it accordingly. Who I truly am is now connecting in an authentic way with the world around me, and it’s like life has colours now. Even the simplest things feel so vivid, because I connect with them directly, without any buffers or filters. It is the best thing that has ever happened to me, and I hope that same for others. It takes time, it’s not easy, and I don’t think I’m fully there yet, but it has been all worth it. I’m actually alive now. A wholly recommended experience 🙂

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by The Ruminant.

I’ve been following this thread with some interest. It seems to be a triggering topic.

I have to say that I really loved Helen’s advice and point of view. You can’t control who you like, and I somehow don’t see anything wrong with feeling affection towards someone. People come and go in and out of your life and we feel something towards them. I derive pleasure from feeling affection towards someone, regardless of who they are. It doesn’t mean that I want to possess them or have them. I just enjoy their presence, that’s all. Perhaps if it’s seen as this fleeting moment in life, it doesn’t become an obsession or anything more than what it is. Controlling and denying makes it a bigger deal than what it is. In my humble opinion.

Big Blue, actually there are a lot of people who are in shape because they suffer from some form of self-loathing. They attach morality into eating and exercise (“if I eat junk food, I am a bad person; if I exercise every day, I am a good person”). If the underlying reasoning and intention is twisted, then even if you reach your goals, you’ll not feel at peace with yourself. This lack of self-acceptance also reflects on other people, and there are some nasty people out there who project their own body issues onto others.

The morality issue can also lead to either overtraining or self-sabotage. The strong belief that your worthiness is tied to your body image and eating and exercise patterns, can lead to a situation where all reason goes out the window. Skipping exercise or eating a pizza will cause anxiety. Or conversely, someone who truly believes that they are unworthy will constantly sabotage their attempts to exercise more or eat a bit less because it doesn’t fit their own image of themselves.

This is why I’m such a big proponent of “get your head straight first and don’t be too hard on yourself”. If you have a healthy mind, then the body will follow. It might take a while, but perhaps patience would be one vital part of a healthy mind 🙂

Hello N,

I just read your post and wanted to share something with you in hopes that it might put your mind at ease.

I’ve been through that self-examination and that feeling of emptiness, and yes, I felt like panicking as well. It was really, really scary. But I stayed with it, for several reasons which are unimportant now. After a while it kind of stopped being empty.

I am no longer a religious person, so to me it’s not really about searching for God. It is not because I would be overly rational, but because I have accepted that there are things that I do not know and can no comprehend, so it’s better if I focus on the smaller things, which actually are within my grasp. It is not my job to define a God or what might happen after death. I will do the best that I can as a human being, and will surely make a lot of mistakes, but we can’t be expected to be perfect.

All that said, I have found the stories of near death experiences very interesting and how people have repeatedly told that it’s not someone else judging them, but rather, they themselves have judged their own lives, and subsequently process it and then forgive. I find that same thing happening in life in general. We can be so harsh towards ourselves and judge ourselves and hold onto those past mistakes. It is as if we’d rather carry some guilt with us than rip off the bandaid and face and deal with the things that we regret and then move on after learning from those mistakes.

You say that you are not ready to accept His love yet because you haven’t put the work in, but you have heard of unconditional love? If you had to put some work in, it would make it conditional 🙂 Meaning that you are already loved, accepted and forgiven. Whether you want to accept that is up to you, but unconditional love does not judge or value you according to your thoughts and deeds. Also, paradoxically, if you do accept that you are loved, the thoughts and deeds start to change as well from destructive to loving.

You are not the first one to have gone through such thoughts and fears, so don’t fret that you are going crazy.

Sometimes when I have trouble with too complex thoughts and wondering what’s the point of me or anyone, I tend to think about plants. They strive to grow regardless of their environment. A small flower can push itself through asphalt. It doesn’t just decide to stop growing or to be alive. This growing, and tending to life and blossoming regardless of the obstacles is somehow a very invigorating imagery for me. A flower doesn’t think that it’s pointless, so why should we? We are here, we’re alive, so let’s live!

Sarah,

There doesn’t have to be a conflict.

Firstly, there is the physical reality of things. From a technical point of view, losing weight is not rocket science. You take in less energy than you expend. People can try to refute the calorie theory, but it still works. If you calculate your intake and your output over a longer period of time, you’ll see that it works. Sure, carbs, protein and fat all do different things and eating a more nutrient rich food is usually better than eating foods low in nutrients. But just to lose weight over time, it is enough to focus on calories. From that point of view, you are able to have takeout and enjoy a curry night without ruining your weight loss efforts. You’ll just have to make sure that over time, your intake is lower than your output. Some people do intermittent fasting, and eat normally during their eating window. So basically, they do eat the takeout and the curries, but they just don’t have it all the time. Or you might just eat lightly before a heavier meal or the day after it. This can be one of those things where it may look like someone is eating a lot, but somehow do not gain weight. They’re not magical. Sure, there are metabolic issues that should be taken into consideration, but their effect isn’t so big that they could completely negate our physical reality. Some people also naturally move more and fidget all the time, so they expend energy even without doing sports.

Secondly, we all know that the mental part is the one that usually makes things really difficult. Stress can also cause metabolic issues, but let’s just focus on the more spiritual part now. If you see yourself as unworthy of a relationship right now, then losing weight isn’t going to all of a sudden change that belief. You have to actually change your belief to be happy with yourself. Losing weight is not enough. You could have the perfect body and be in a relationship and still be miserable. Paradoxically, if you did feel happy about yourself and you were enjoying life, you might naturally start to eat less junk food or move more. How you feel about yourself would start to affect your decisions.

So, I don’t think that there is a conflict, but perhaps differences in how we view causality.

I actually have a lot of thoughts on this subject, as I’ve spent a lot of time on different diet forums and I’ve seen so many people who are stuck and can’t seem to see a way out. Reality is less complex than what it may seem like when you’re feeling down and stuck.

Hello all,

Some wonderful posts here. Thank you all.

N, I noticed that you went from “sometimes striving at things that are meaningless” to “everything is meaningless” quite quickly! Based on your first chapter, and not actually watching the video, I was thinking that people tend to do things like “if only I would have a nicer car, then I would be happy”. Then they decide that they are unhappy for as long as they don’t have that something, and they put their effort into getting that car or lamenting over it’s non-existence, and completely forget to do things that would actually bring happiness. The car isn’t going to bring lasting happiness anyway. It’s fun for a while and then emptiness sets in again, if happiness isn’t found from life itself. That’s just an example, but that’s what seems to be rather prevalent in my culture.

Perhaps I’m oversimplifying things 🙂 At last!

Hello MD and thanks for being new! 🙂

I agree with everyone else, and at the risk of sounding redundant, I’ll just add another point of view. I notice something similar in his behaviour, something that I have experienced myself and have witnessed in other people. When there is more thinking than feeling, things get unbalanced. People start to approach spiritual practices from an intellectual viewpoint and miss out on the actual wisdom behind them. They essentially say and do all the right things, but without the mind-heart connection, or a balance between thinking and feeling, the whole thing becomes twisted. I think his practice has indeed become twisted.

Without this proper balance, he also seems to have problems processing emotions. To me it seems as if his brain is all about the analysing and the processing of information, so when an emotion arises, he has no capacity to deal with it. I’m basing all this on my own experiences, the kind of person I have been and my experiences with other similar people. I can relate to those who are more about the thinking, but luckily have gained some more perspective on it.

I would be someone who might get annoyed by watching a screen where someone is typing and then they stop and then I don’t know what is happening. The feeling of anger over not knowing arises. How I deal with that feeling has changed over time for me. Before, my impatience and the need to know might’ve caused me to tell the other person that it’s really annoying what they are doing, though I still would’ve understood that they’re not doing it just to upset me 🙂 Now, I let go of that anger much faster, so it’s almost as if it doesn’t even exist. It still comes up, but it is let go of, and instead I relax and think that I’ll get the message they are writing as soon as they are finished writing it. Or if they decide that they’re not going to say anything, then that’s fine. Though there are exceptions to this: when there is tension between me and that person, knowing what he or she is thinking becomes more important, and there is more anxiety over not knowing. Still, even after that, I try to resolve the situation with a bit of tact, which means not getting consumed by the sudden emotion.

So, I understand that anger can arise in different situations over the smallest things, but what happens after that is the measure of the person’s capabilities. We are not 3 years old anymore. There are so many points in between watching a screen where someone is typing and actually telling them that you want to punch a wall, where he could’ve dissolved the situation for himself and let go, but he didn’t. He may think that feelings are an illusion, but they sure have control over him and not the other way around 🙂 And that is what happens when you don’t accept that you have feelings and you try to detach from them: you become crippled in handling them. It’s like denying that there is a flood in your house. “Oh, no, that’, it’s not really there.” Yet it’s ruining everything and unless you deal with it, it’s not going to go away.

I’m really glad that you are questioning his sensibility.