I know I have little social grace when it comes to the mind-numbingly boring things that women force other women to go through 🙂 Same goes for small talk, which was one of the things you, Inky, said was how you thought you’re introverted (in another thread). I really don’t think I’m an introvert, but I’m not going to be forced into pointless conversations that people want to have just because… I don’t even know why! 🙂 I think that it is a waste of everyone’s time and energy.

I really don’t think that lying is a way to set boundaries 🙂 If something bothers you, then communicate it directly. No need to feel guilty. Nobody can make you be the bad guy. You’ll have to willingly buy into it.

Hi Little Buddha,

Do I think codependency is real? Yes and no. These days I tend to see things more along the lines of immature/mature behaviour and thinking patterns in relationships (with oneself and with others). For example, co-dependents tend to have relationships with narcissists. Seeing those two as completely different ways of dealing with things can lead to missing out on the similarities, which is, both having very childish views of how relationships should work. A healthy, emotionally mature person isn’t going to have a relationship with neither a codependent nor a narcissist. Yet, those two (and a whole host of other personality disorders) tend to flock together. I have personally actively started to let go of the pathology and rather look at things at the maturity spectrum.

As an example, your solution to finding out that you might be codependent was to never make the same mistake again and seek someone who absolutely doesn’t need your help and is completely independent. The solution in itself is a bit of an overreaction. I find immaturity to be very black and white and simplistic with extremes, whereas with maturity, the nuances start to matter a lot more. Trust me, you do not want to have a relationship with anyone who would call themselves “fiercely independent”, as an example. That’s just another way of being unable to be in a healthy relationship with others. In a healthy relationship, there is an appropriate amount of independence and dependence. A balanced approach.

Please note that I’m not using the word “immature” as a derogatory term. It’s just that the raw emotional reactions are very…well “raw” 🙂 It’s how we start out, and with time and growth, if given the possibility, the way we experience things will mature, ripen. We develop boundaries, learn how to behave appropriately, understand and accept that there are differences between people, and so on. If someone hasn’t had a chance to develop their emotional maturity, those problems still exist in relationships, even as an adult. Also note that I don’t think it is binary, that either you’re completely immature or you’re really mature. It’s more of a scale and even mature people have moments of immaturity. When it comes to adult relationships, I think it’s more about how consistently people behave and are they able to learn and grow along the way. Moving from a reactionary way of living to a more mindful type of living, from rigidness to flexibility, from absolutes to nuances.

I have been to Al-Anon meetings, which is a support group for family members and friends of alcoholics. My father was an alcoholic, and whilst I didn’t really blame his alcoholism for my relationship problems, the dysfunctional relationship patterns in my childhood obviously did create a lot of problems for me down the line. I wasn’t that taken by the 12 steps, nor am I convinced that it’s a good idea to focus on alcoholism as a disease. To me it was always more of a symptom, rather than a cause. Regardless, those meetings turned out to be incredibly valuable. Seeing my own behaviour and thinking patterns in other people was very enlightening. Also the atmosphere in general was very healing to me.

I think you get out of them what you want to get out of them. I was there with some people who were kind of going through the motions and the 12 steps, but with a bit of intellectual and emotional dishonesty. There are a lot of people who say that they are working on themselves, but actually do not do the really hard parts. I found that it requires a lot of humility to accept that your ways of dealing with your emotions and other people and yourself are flawed. I mean, the whole behaviour patterns have emerged from the need to protect oneself from harm, and then you’d have to all of a sudden be exposed and vulnerable? It’s not easy and no amount of support group meetings will help unless you are willing to have a bit of trust and get to the core of issues.

There are books on codependency, but I’ve taken a liking to David Richo, who doesn’t directly write about codependency, but I think his views are still valuable.

Just, don’t be too hard on yourself. It takes time to change certain patterns, and there are a lot we’re not even aware of. We just think that they’re normal, because that’s how we’ve always behaved. But I think that with practicing patience and compassion, the right kind of patterns start to emerge.

This was a really nice read. Thank you all, and especially thank you @amatt for such lovely insights. I think I need to write that down somewhere as well.

I can understand the need for honesty. I’ve been like that. My mind is quite literal and not following certain rules can actually cause a lot of stress. As an example, my mother has a very selective memory and her storytelling tends to be coloured with a bit of drama, instead of being too involved with the details and whether things actually happened the way she’s telling the story. This has always caused me some mental anguish. She doesn’t understand my reaction to it at all, and thinks that it’s not such a big deal. But that’s just how it goes, and I have to understand that she takes some liberties in favour of dramatic storytelling. Sometimes the truth isn’t what people are looking for and during those times I need to let go of my own obsession with it. I have noticed though that the more I spend time thinking, the more obsessed I get with the truth. The more time I spend feeling, life becomes more balanced. It gets easier to let go of the details and see things in a different light.

There is a danger in having this image of oneself as being “always honest”. Apart from accidentally being inconsiderate of others’ feelings. When we start to believe that we are a particular type of person, we kind of fail to notice all the times when we are not like that. The belief is so strong that any evidence against that would cause a cognitive dissonance. Instead of being able to face the fact that there are times when we aren’t being completely honest, it’s easier to create a justification for why in that particular time we failed to be honest.

Or perhaps the honesty can be a justification for failing to be considerate towards another person. I cringe every time bad behaviour is justified by “being real”. It’s silly. It’s not about being real, as in genuine. It’s about being inconsiderate towards others and commonly accepted social behaviour. So there is a chance that the honesty becomes a justification of an event gone wrong, and was not actually the reason for things going wrong.

I also am not so sure if dating is a game to be played. It might seem like it, but it’s actually not. A person who has their own interests and their own life, has their temperament under control, who is kind and courteous towards others and has a healthy sexual appetite isn’t going to have problems finding a partner. But when we feel like we are lacking in those areas or think that we’re perhaps not as good as we think we should be, there is a temptation to appear as if we’re all that. As an example, you meet a new person, become really infatuated by them, and feel the urge to send them 20 text messages right after meeting them. There’s an inner clash between this strong urge and the rational part that knows that it’s going to appear desperate. If you do end up sending all the messages, and consequently scaring the other person in the process, it’s possible to justify it by saying “I was just being honest about my feelings, and if they can’t handle it, then perhaps it’s better that we didn’t end up together”. Not sending the messages might feel fake and like playing games. “I want to express my interest, but feel like I need to hold back to appear cool and collected.” With some maturity though, none of this would be a problem. With maturity, you can handle the strong urges and extreme feelings. With maturity, things aren’t that black and white anymore, but it doesn’t mean that honesty or being genuine would be sacrificed. Handling emotions becomes easier, so there are less extremes. Even reading social cues becomes easier.

I know all of this is kind of hypothetical, and not necessarily something that is an issue for the OP. I just wanted to point out that things aren’t always what they appear to be, and with some time, patience and growth, a new reality might appear. What you thought was the truth is only a partial truth.

Hi all,

Well, I’ve also kind of felt like I’m the odd one out, I do sense other people’s vibes rather easily and find it difficult to find similar people. This has bothered me, but something has changed now, so I wanted to share my thoughts on that.

Do we really have to be involved with people who tick all the boxes and are just like us?

When I was a child, I forged friendships (and had crushes on boys) without going through some mental checklist of whether they were appropriate for me. Things just happened, you just started to spend more time with someone, even if you were from different backgrounds and had different kinds of interests. Sure, adult life is different and for someone who doesn’t have children it might be difficult to connect with someone who does (as an example), but it doesn’t have to be that difficult if you’d be willing to have an open mind and an open heart.

I’m not so sure if sharing thoughts with someone would counter the feelings of loneliness, but rather it’s just sharing, time and energy. If I laugh with someone, the joke in itself isn’t that important, but the fact that we are laughing together. Those are the things that you remember, how someone made you feel. I remember getting close with this girl during a class trip to Germany. We hadn’t really interacted that much in school, but we hit it off during the trip. We were both so tired and laughing at things. So basically, our similarities as people were that we were both tired 🙂 But we really started to like each other and even though we never became close friends, we shared something that we’ll remember and I know that there is this certain fondness even after a long time.

I have personally made a decision to get involved in more groups after summer. At least sewing (there’s a group that gathers to sew all kinds of things that are donated to hospitals and charities), possibly languages (Russian) and belly dancing. Probably a wine club as well. I have no idea what sort of people are in those groups, and I don’t know if I’ll find friends there, but I am willing to interact with others in a way where I give something of myself to them and accept what they give back. I can share thoughts online, but it’s harder to share energy and closeness with another human, and I need that. I think we all need that.

I’m interested in such vastly different things that it would be nearly impossible to find someone who had the same interests. I’m a bit of a nerd (not just a geek, a nerd), into philosophy, Astrology, cooking, cosmetics (using and making my own), weight lifting (though haven’t done that in a while), psychology, etc. What are the chances of me ever finding someone with similar interest? And why should I be with someone with similar interests? Besides, being with someone very similar might make it even harder to accept the differences, and there are going to be differences. Similar sense of humour would be enough to share some laughs, and a kind heart would be enough to open up and be vulnerable for a while. Of course it goes both ways, and it would be nice to be with people who accept that my interests might be different from theirs. It still hurts when other women are dismissive about my nerdiness (I can call myself a nerd, but it’s not nice when non-nerds do it).

I have to say that at least for me, ego has played a part in me getting further away from other people. This idea that I would be somehow different and “special” and that others couldn’t possibly understand me is kind of silly. Injecting a bit more humility into myself, I’m noticing that they don’t have to understand me fully. That expectation is perhaps a bit overrated. I understand myself and that’s enough. What I need from other people is interaction, laughing, sharing, and feeling of belonging. You don’t have to be similar to enjoy those things. In fact, it might be more vibrant and fun if you were different kinds of people and able to accept the differences.

All that said, I do still want to have boundaries, and I also do not care to be with people who either walk all over mine or need constant validation. So @coolcorriander, I can fully understand why you wouldn’t want to sustain such relationships. I personally want healthy energy exchange, joyful interaction or even sharing some sorrows, but between two people who understand that they are two separate people and that the other person doesn’t exist as their extension. Healthy boundaries and healthy relationships!

I have to say, I’m also having a hard time believing in Inky the Introvert 😉 I always imagined you raising hell in real life. And in here 🙂 I’m saying that in an affectionate way, by the way… 🙂

Hello Sarah (@kenaz80),

I saw your post earlier this week, and you’ve been in my thoughts. I didn’t have a chance to respond earlier, as I’ve also been busy with photography this week 🙂 There are some thoughts I’d like to share with you that may or may not be something you can relate to. There is a chance that I’m projecting, but I’ll take that chance 🙂

It looks as if you’re kind of stuck in a reactionary situation. You look at a photo of yourself and you react to it by sobbing. I’m not sure what is the exact conversation that you are having with yourself, but I’m guessing that you are essentially telling yourself that you are not good enough compared to other people and you are ashamed of yourself. Then you react to that reaction and make plans to change everything. Then you react to the idea that you would have to change everything.

Considering that strong emotional reactions can feel like having your raw flesh poked, it must be very painful to go through all these thoughts and the reactions to them. When we are in pain, we tend to grab onto anything that we feel can provide us comfort or save us, and all reason goes out the window. As an example, the Saturday night takeout with a movie. You have this idea that it is both the key to your happiness and the reason why you can’t lose weight. Both ideas are false, but it’s difficult to see that from the emotional reactions.

One part of you is grabbing onto the Saturday night takeout as a nurturing moment, and another part is trying to take that nurturing away from you. In reality though, the Saturday night takeout is probably filling some void. Perhaps you’d rather spend that time cuddling with a loving partner, but since that is missing, the dinner and movie will fill that need. Nothing wrong with that, actually, but the point is that the dinner in itself isn’t your source of happiness (and neither is the potential relationship, btw). It’s a way to nurture yourself. If you felt completely accepted, loved and cared for, you would all of a sudden notice that you don’t actually need the takeout (nor the relationship). They’d be a surplus. But for the time being, you need it, and that’s OK. There is no need to take away a security blanket by force and cause depression which will eventually lead to even a stronger need for that security. So have your takeout. Let’s be reasonable here: one takeout per week isn’t going to make you or break you and thinking that it would is silly. The curry night isn’t going to ruin you either. You could easily balance that out by eating slightly less the rest of the week or on that day. But being reasonable is difficult when you’re having a strong emotional reaction to something. It’s understandable.

So what to do? Well, don’t be so hard on yourself. It’s only going to make things more difficult. Instead of violently going from one extreme to another, try to find new ways of nurturing yourself and taking care of yourself, without forcefully taking away the current ways of nurturing. You’ll drop them automagically when it’s time. Self-discipline, or rather maintaining focus as @amatt stated, becomes much, much easier when you’re not constantly in the reactionary mode. You are expending a huge amount of energy on grabbing onto the idea of food as source of happiness, a relationship as source of happiness and a strict diet as a source of salvation and as a key to having a relationship (and happiness). Paradoxically, those things are preventing you from reaching what you want. But like I said, you can’t forcefully take away those dreams, because you would just end up with more emotional reactions.

So find new ways to nurture yourself. Open your heart to other people and spread kindness. Open your heart to yourself and give kindness to yourself! Stop the self-shaming on it’s tracks when it starts. Absolutely, positively, do not use unkind words when you talk to yourself. Those are like poison that go unnoticed, but constantly keep you down when you want to be lifted. If you can’t say something nice to yourself, then don’t say anything. Just do not talk to yourself with harsh words. Don’t feel guilt over food. Food IS a source of enjoyment and it does nurture your body and even the soul. Derive joy from the things that you do and experience. Other people gravitate towards those who make them feel good and are lovely to be with. They don’t gravitate towards those who are a certain size and feel awkward about themselves 😉 Take in the sun and use that energy to radiate joy in your surroundings. Sarah, as one woman to another, your vulnerability and desire to love are great feminine features that drive men wild 🙂

Being genuine and open to other people are much, much more important than your weight. I recently got reminded of this; I went out a week ago and saw some people after a long time. Between then and now, I think I’ve gained around 15kg. I was expecting that perhaps someone might mention that, but I decided to not get defensive or go into hiding, and instead just be myself and spread the joy I was feeling over such a sunny day. Nobody mentioned my weight, and instead I was constantly hugged and shown appreciation and even got rather heavily propositioned by one man (who has interestingly always dated stick thin models). And I must stress that he wanted to start dating, not just have sex. When I was thinner and had a more defensive attitude, there was no shortage of propositions, but they were mostly for sex, and trying to have a relationship was really difficult because I did not love myself and I had a really low self-esteem. It is now starting to be very clear to me how much more important an open heart and an open mind are compared to what kind of body you have. Even the body will look different depending on how you carry it and how much you love it. This self-acceptance then reflects onto others and when you love and accept others, they will feel good and they will want to hang around with you for as long as possible 🙂 I wish I had figured this out a long time ago before all the pain, but perhaps the pain was needed to really understand how love works.

Anyway, I really hope that you can slowly let go of the pain and anguish and fill yourself with love and acceptance. You don’t have to force it, but take baby steps. Every small moment when you don’t give yourself hard time or you feel joie de vivre will accumulate and will eventually allow you to let go of the security blankets 🙂 The world wants to see and experience you, so stop making it so difficult! 🙂

• This reply was modified 10 years, 4 months ago by The Ruminant.