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June 10, 2019 at 7:13 am in reply to: Trying to deal with anxiety and loss after relationship break up #298223MichelleParticipant
Ok, one more thought…..you guys know I love this stuff…..how about US (where?) if that’s what you love/really want to do…..there are a ton of house-sits for US, to save accommodation costs. And then add in either Mexico or some of Central America either end, will lower your average cost loads and are all amazing places in their own right. Panama/Costa Rica, lots of house-sits too and the others just pretty cheap. Some good websites to read are traveller blog’s, tend to find them a good place to start for a non tourist-industry type view. Nomadic Matt has good general coverage and http://www.travelindependent.info/where-travel-top-best-places.htm is another practical but inspirational place to start.
Hope helps…..I’ll go away again now…..!
MichelleParticipantHey JHK,
Awesome hike, thanks.
So it can be very easy to confuse being thoughtful with seeking reassurance for yourself. For example, when she has stated she wants alone time, by not listening to her and continuing to try to find out ‘what’s wrong’, she could interpret that as you aren’t actually listening to her, her wants but could easily instead be seen as you being insecure, not wanting her to withdraw from your conversations, not having the confidence in her being able to solve her own issues.
Like everything, it’s knowing the balance between when is a good time to push and when you should listen to what she says and leave her alone. Often, there isn’t anything ‘wrong’ anyway, she just simply wants to be alone for a while, that’s perfectly normal and nothing there for you to worry about.
When you are considering what and what not to ask her about – try to look at it from her point of view and consider your motivation for asking. For example, if you were to ask her does she enjoy your company at times – isn’t that really about you wanting to feel less insecure about her not wanting to spend time with you anymore. How is asking her that going to help you, especially with the history of avoiding straight and honest answers? Wouldn’t it be better to actually spend some time together, not discussing emotional topics and just seeing the evidence in front of your own eyes that she is (or isn’t) enjoying her time with you. The place you both want to visit sounds a great opportunity to do so – can you make that a more solid plan, bring it forwards. It doesn’t matter if it is a date or not – the more time you spend together in person will become more obvious as to if she enjoys time with you and whether it’s romantically inclined or not.
Personally, I would say the acting angsty with each other is not a good thing. Why are you acting? Are you sure she is acting? It sounds more like frustration/irritation bubbling over from that you mentioned before, struggling to continue a conversation without fresh input, covering the same old ground.
June 10, 2019 at 4:32 am in reply to: Trying to deal with anxiety and loss after relationship break up #298221MichelleParticipantNow that’s excellent timing – bizarrely I was just thinking about you both on my hike out this morning ( a day without rain in Wales, it’s a small miracle….!! ) and thinking I should catch up and see how you both were doing.
Shelby m’dear – ofcourse you wouldn’t do things to deliberately hurt them and not what I meant at all! Just that there’s a big difference between always saying ‘yes’ and that sometimes it’s ok to prioritise yourself, it’s another one of those irritating building self-esteem things 🙂
I’m glad you are doing ok, try not to worry about if/when you are going to feel bad – it’ll happen when/if it’ll happen and enjoy(?) being just ok in the meantime. Exam pressure more than enough – I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you!
And now to travel….absolutely I can help, I’d love to, I’m honoured you asked! It sounds like you are thinking of taking a year out as a gap-year or did I misunderstand that? That would be awesome but however long you have, what I’ve learned is that you are generally better off (1) ignoring other people’s bucket lists, it’s what you like that’s important and (2) slow travel is both cheaper, more in-depth and gentler on the body than how most people travel.
From the countries you list, sounds like you want somewhere without too many language issues? What are the places you would prefer more, that you mentioned? US is amazing for sure but yes, expensive, especially with our crazy exchange rates right now. You can get really good deals on flights to get there easy enough, it’s the cost of being there that’s harder. I have to say from my experience I’ve enjoyed all travels but the ones where everything has been very affordable are much more fun in terms of not feeling restricted by budget and you can get to stay in some amazing places.
Thailand is great for people travelling on their own, as it’s full of other people doing the same! If you are going for long enough, you could plan on stopping there for a while which would break up the big flight over to Aus/Oz if you still wanted to go on there. It’s a good culture shock place to really make you feel as though you are travelling and excites the sense without ever feeling unsafe or difficult.
I’m thinking if I was in your shoes I’d want to be somewhere warm/sunny, affordable, people to meet when I want to, enough culture shock to bring your mind alive ( if that makes sense ) whilst enough home comforts to know you can rest easy when you want/need to, whilst not worrying the whole time it’s costing too much. SE Asia does tick a lot of that, as would South America. Closer to home, a lot of the more rural parts of gorgeous countries such as Spain, Greece, Italy, Croatia are way more affordable than you think if you are smart about it.
A good friend of mine is an avid traveller and has been travelling alone for many years. She often mixes up time alone with joining others on trips when in the more remote places ( her last stint was Lebanon ), which seems to work well for her.
Absolutely agree, a lot of people say to leave things open but I’ve always found that planning and thinking ahead, preparing for it and knowing as much about it as I can gives me the confidence to then go and actually do it. Yeah, I have tons of ways I save money on travelling – though often it’s less about saving money than staying somewhere better value/nicer for the same money.
And yeah, I could go on all day about this – I’m really impressed you are still considering it, well done you. As we narrow it down to what you’d like, can help more on the tools of the trade I use if you like.
@Kkasxo – excellent to hear from you, as said was wondering how you guys were doing. So good to hear the move went well, it’s always a bit more chaotic than you think! Have your family left now or is that coming up soon? It’s really good to hear you can now at least identify your triggers and choose to react differently – that’s pretty amazing, well done. And yeah, having your own space and somewhere you feel safe is unbeatable. So happy for you.MichelleParticipantHi JHK,
If I read all your posts, it sounds as though you are waiting for someone to say something like ‘yes, I think revisiting the crush conversation is a good idea’. And whilst absolutely having an open & honest conversation is the best way forwards, I’m not sure this is the right time for it.
As I understand it, many of your conversations lately have been one-sided and much less stimulating/interesting than before. She’s also stated that she needs her alone time and that she’s finding you clingy at times now. As such, it seems to me, that bringing the subject up directly now is unlikely to be successful how you would like it to be – if anything it will could make you seem like you are panicking that as she pulls away, you are no longer important to her, either as a friend or a relationship and are looking for reassurance that is not the case.
Relationships and friendships both need space to breath, often a natural and hopefully pleasant, exciting, evolution as you get to know the person better and get closer. This one seems hard work on your side, very one-sided? There are different ways to look to establish if she is interested in you romantically than directly asking, which I think would lead to another ‘heavy’ conversation or more avoidance on her part. How often do you guys meet up outside of work? Can you think of something new and interesting to do together, something you know she enjoys – if she accepts, that’s a great sign (obviously!). Not asking as a date, but to see how it goes, do you have fun together again, is it a positive experience for both of you?
It would also be good for you to lessen your dependency on her responses, spend more time with other people, on other activities you enjoy. It makes a world of difference instead of sitting around trying to puzzle her out and worrying about lack of responses.
Honestly, I sense you are scared you are losing her and would regret not trying again. Obviously only you can make that decision and I wish you well whichever way you try. Heading out for a hike now, back later.
MichelleParticipantHey JHK,
Absolutely – much courage to admit having feelings, even more so when you aren’t sure about them being returned.
Hope is a good thing, a positive. It helps overcome fear. What is the worst outcome for you do you think – to try and find out if a romantic relationship is possible or to wonder what if many years later.
She may simply still not know herself what she wants. I think you are wise, giving her some space and reducing the texts if they have become dull, tired. It sounds like you often have quite in-depth/emotionally charged conversations – how about lightening it for a while to get some balance, focus on having fun together again, talking about positive things, doing interesting things together. People vary on how much alone time they need to recharge, let her have her space and be the one to reach out sometimes.
Hope it helps – you sound a very thoughtful and kind person, hope it works out how you would like it to. Be brave, good luck.
MichelleParticipantHi JHK,
I think you have two possible scenarios here.
One, where it sounds like both of you were scared to admit the truth when testing out the waters of a possible relationship beyond friendship. By ‘testing you out’ in a joking manner, if you had replied negatively ( as you did ) then she hasn’t opened herself up to rejection entirely and can save face by saying she was joking. By negatively I mean simply not encouraging the thought, the possibility but instead indicating the moment had passed for you, your feelings were no longer so strongly inclined. When asked about potentially being together, she responds ‘ I don’t know’ as she does not have enough positive answers from you to know if you want to now, especially if you laughed when she suggested she was attracted to you at one point. So she doesn’t want to say ‘no’ because she would like something to happen but doesn’t say ‘yes’ as that is too positive, too risky based on the evidence she has seen from you so far.
Or second, she may just have really enjoyed knowing you were attracted to her. If she’s still coming out of a bad break-up, people often look around to others to help make them feel less rejected, to boost their self-esteem. At that point when she was ‘testing you’, she may have simply been feeling low herself and needing to hear someone wanted her.In this scenario, when asked about potentially being together, the ‘don’t know’ response is a way of avoiding a ‘no’ answer, which she knows would lose your attention for her and she’s not ready to give up her crutch (you) as yet. She wants to make sure you will still be there for an ego boost when needed.
Both scenarios are plausible and the only way to know which it is, like Anita says, is to gently question, learn more, being open yourself and overcoming your fear of rejection. I would suggest not getting your hopes up too much, the lack of responses to texts/other media and the clingy comments would suggest that for now she does not need your attention – perhaps this other man you mentioned she was thinking of going back to as a ‘stepping-stone’ is now taking her attention. It would explain why her need for your attention now is less, making her describe as ‘clingy’ what was previously very welcomed.
Can you suggest meeting up outside work – so much easier to learn more face to face than through texts and the like. Perhaps reduce the amount of texts/contact and replace with one simple invitation, letting her respond when ready. Should tell you a lot by itself.
MichelleParticipantHi JHK,
I responded to one of your other posts but would like to add something here too. Knowing when to give people space is important. How balanced is your life outside this relationship – do you have other close friends/family you regularly talk to as well? If you are feeling insecure about the lack of replies from her, consider why you feel so.
Friendships & relationships go through different phases, the best friendships are those you can pick up after years and still talk like it was yesterday, despite not having been in touch for a while. It may be she is simply busy right now, or that she doesn’t have much to say or it may be she wants some space,or many other such reasons – there is no way of knowing without asking her. And it doesn’t matter – what I’d suggest you focus on is why it makes you feel insecure/worried about being clingy. Perhaps spend time talking to others, doing other activities so that not all your time/attention is focused on her – it’s important to have balance in your life and will reduce your concern and dependency on her replies or lack of.
MichelleParticipantHi Joe,
Congratulations for putting in great effort to improve yourself, understand you are disappointed in the results you see, disappointed that you still feel weird. The thing is, like Anita says, good physical & emotional health and healthy self-esteem don’t eliminate feeling weird or depressed – these feelings still happen same way good and bad things will happen through life. But they do give you strength/resilience in dealing with them and improve your ability to recognise and process thoughts differently, being able to see them as a temporary feeling, a temporary thought – not an absolute truth about us as a person, something to be considered and acted upon only if needed.
Trying to ignore thoughts and feelings only empowers them more – it’s like telling someone not to think about elephants and ofcourse the first thing in that person’s mind is an all-singing, all-dancing elephant! What thoughts are you trying to ignore when you calm your mind through the TV/computer? Do you think they are true? For example, it is different to say I am currently feeling depressed to saying I am depressed. The first recognises it as the truth, a temporary state of feeling which will pass with time. And as you practice reviewing your thoughts and feelings in such a way, not ignoring them but not blindly accepting them, it gets easier and quicker to work out the underlying driver of them. Often it is old-standing insecurities or fears that once identified, can be worked through.
Hope helps.
MichelleParticipantHi JHK,
It sounds like you have a good strong relationship with this colleague, being able to talk through hurt feelings and forgiveness is part of being in an honest relationship, be it friendship or romantic. I would see no reason to give up on them now – what is your thinking in considering doing so? Are you are still hurting/angry with them for not being there for you when you needed them to be? Do you think she will be able to be there for you next time?
Despite a lot of people meeting their eventual partner through work, it can be difficult becoming a romantic relationship with a work colleague, extra risk involved if the relationship doesn’t work out. How closely do you work together, are you in the same team, same department, same level? What would happen if it was a difficult break-up?
I suspect they were honest about testing you out and meant it as intended, displaying their interest in a romantic relationship with you – it is an emotional risk to ask and wouldn’t be lightly undertaken with a good friend for no reason. It sounds as though your response indicated no romantic interest now, only in the past and so perhaps she backed off from taking further risk without more encouragement from you. Which ties with the “I don’t know” response, in that she’s interested in something but is not sure you are. Especially if she has had a rough break-up, it can be difficult to be open to taking a risk and trying again.
Why do you think these deep thoughts about a relationship have resurfaced now, if you thought you were past them? And why did you feel it was ‘wrong’ to have a crush on her? Fear is always a powerful motivation, looking to protect yourself from rejection. Life is about taking balanced risks – perhaps you can find a balanced way forwards on this one. Do you already meet up outside of work, perhaps go for a drink/something you both like to do? If not, do you think suggesting such an event, not a date necessarily, just a way to get to know each other outside work, would be helpful in learning more about her, seeing if the risk is worth taking?
MichelleParticipantHi X,
Interesting, not intended to come across as constructive criticism, just an alternative viewpoint on the info you provide. Understand it’s unhelpful to you, no problem, as said at the start, I’ll help where I can but there are others who are better suited to helping you with this going forwards.
Before I ‘go’ from your thread, I’ll answer your last q’s/comments best I can, as ever.
– Taking more risk. Not meant as chasing men per se or pretending to be something you are not. Meant as not expecting the man to take all the early risk of displaying his interest and investing heavily in you before you are open and investing in him, instead expecting for it to be fair and balanced on both. That’s a good strong foundation. Not meant as leaping into bed with them, agree with Anita there on getting to know people at a pace that is right for you. But meant as being open yourself, clearly showing your interest to get to know them better. People are not all too good at reading very subtle signs.
– Expecting a lot. Again, I was talking about the emotional risk aspect, not effort/style. The balanced approach, instead of wanting the man to take all the risk. Not sure I quite understood your examples, I think you mean you want to be involved in choosing the dates, to be consulted and not informed. Which is fair but comes back to that balanced approach. You can suggest dates too for example.
I think I am doing quite a favour to the person agreeing to meet up when all the times when we exchanged a few remarks the only thing I could think of was “I hope you never talk to me again.” I’d take this the opposite way ( but you knew that! ) in that why is it a favour to continue to meet up with someone you know you don’t like. I’d say you are doing them a disservice, better to kindly say no thanks.
I’m not convinced you are going to enjoy the book but if it helps, great. Wish you all the best with working through this and hope you get what you want.
MichelleParticipantYou sound exhausted. I am sorry to hear you are still suffering. Is there anything in particular in addition to your existing suffering that has happened?
It is brave to reach out for help. Please do continue to do so and we’ll be here for you as we can.
MichelleParticipantHey Tannhauser,
Wanted to see how you were coping, given how much stress and fear you are living with currently. It looks like you now have some advice from people with experience with this – I hope you have found it helpful and more relevant for you, how did you get on with Terence’s first suggestion?
Everything I read about it, especially the first link I shared with you spoke to how often they were also disbelieved or mis-diagnosed. And why it was so important to find a mentor who can help you through it, so hopefully both Terence & Abnavaya can provide such. But I wanted to let you know I’m still here to listen and help support when and how I can.
Best wishes,
Michelle
MichelleParticipantHi X,
Welcome back, good to hear from you again and good to hear the trip went well.
Did you get a chance to think about my reply to online dating/read the books suggested at all?
Few thoughts stand out from the above for me. You have some very strong and fixed ideas about what is the “right” way for a relationship to start. In fact, you have pretty fixed ideas about relationships in general it seems to me. Although you read widely and consider lots of other angles, all your posts tend towards finding points that make your existing ideas/beliefs stronger – I don’t recall an instance where you have changed your beliefs on this subject, is there one you can share with us?
As you will know – it is very common for people to suffer from strong confirmation bias, viewing and filtering the world through such strong pre-existing views in order to make sure they don’t need to change their own beliefs. This is not especially helpful or conducive to growing as a person and changing/breaking the unhelpful relationship cycle you are stuck in.
What I get when I read your posts is a strong view of someone who despite all evidence read/presented and experience to date is still holding strongly to her views of how exactly “the one” relationship should be. But how often in anything does reality match up to a pre-conceived notion? That’s why as humans we experiment, we learn, we feel our forwards as much as think our way through – it’s a balancing act of risk/reward and conscious decisions, determining what is actually real, not what we hoped/thought it should be.
Example 1; First, I am convinced that the first step must be made by the man. The woman can give out signs that she likes the man, but the first invitation needs to come from the man. Why? Why does it have to be the man to put himself at risk and not you – this is quite an old-fashioned view, very traditional. How do you give enough signs that the risk is worth taking for him? E.g. many of the signs of your crushes that you have described could just as easily be read/interpreted as normal behaviour – not of that of someone interested in developing the relationship further. How good are you at actually letting a man know you are interested before he is asking you out?
Example 2; I think my ex was the only one so far who persisted in communicating with me and trying to win me over for two months after our initial meeting. And all that communication was done from another country. And we hadn’t even kissed by that point. Why do you need to be won over? Throughout your posts, it sounds like you consider yourself a prize, of something to be worked for, earned. Do you worry or feel shame if moving too quickly, like you have given yourself away cheaply if you do not wait such a time period? It can be hard if that is the culture grown up with, when then dealing with an entirely different culture in a new country. I would also say this is another way of how you feel you should be able to wait around and pick from your willing suitors – without exposing yourself to any of the risk involved in doing so.
Example 3;I have yet to meet a man who would like me enough to want to show me that he is a reliable person whom I can fall in love with Per above – yet again you are looking to remove all the risk before considering it safe to love. Life doesn’t operate on such certainties. It is a gradual exposure, deciding. Getting to know someone, letting them know you are interested, exposing yourself to some risk as you do. And being ok when the risk fails, knowing you are strong enough to try again. Just like in science, failure is how we learn, how we grow.
Example 4; “I like you – you like me = good, let’s sleep together” OR “I like you – you don’t like me = no prob, I’ll find another one.” So it can certainly seem that way but like everything, is not true for the entire world. What do you consider “wrong” with the idea of sleeping with someone if you like them? I am not saying it is right or wrong, it is whatever fits the individuals involved. Is it that you must be in love to sleep with someone and expect the same from them? Do you consider that being in love will take the risk out of sleeping with someone and being that open, that close. With your romantic/idealised beliefs – is it more that you feel it isn’t what “a good princess” does?
This is not about lowering your standards and accepting what is on offer – as agreed, none of those options you presented would tempted me either tbh. But you do expect a lot from potential partners before you are willing to expose yourself to even a small degree of risk. Do you think that is fair?
June 5, 2019 at 12:42 am in reply to: Trying to deal with anxiety and loss after relationship break up #297417MichelleParticipantHey Shelby.
“I feel like I’m a good friend – as much as I can be – and a good sister, daughter and aunt. Is that what my life is meant to be? Am I meant to be here for them and try and make their lives better?” Short answer to your question – no – but it’s what your life will be if you continue to let fear stop you from changing it.
“Many many times I wish I could go back to my 20s when I was blissfully ignorant and way less self aware.” I actually don’t think you were ignorant/less self aware – but that you were much less frightened back then, far happier to take risks. I am guessing that at some point you took a risk which ended up badly and from then on, your fear of the consequences of “getting it wrong” has grown. So you have wrapped your current comfort zone around you like a big cosy blanket where you can safely help out those nearest to you, knowing they appreciate it and you feel needed. But at the same time this big cosy blanket is smothering you – the real you – buried deep inside. Remember our discussion on the two voices you have, the loud shouty scared one and the quiet authentic one that you need to learn to listen to still. She knows what she wants out of life. You just need to listen. And then act on it.
I think you saw this relationship as your only chance to grasp at a different life, one you don’t currently believe you are strong or brave enough to reach out for by yourself. It’s why you clung on for so long. And why it hurts so much more than other break-ups.
The thing is – you can change this. And you don’t need to be with someone else to do so. But you are going to have to face your fears. Small steps to start, remember. We’re here to help.
June 2, 2019 at 1:03 am in reply to: Trying to deal with anxiety and loss after relationship break up #296955MichelleParticipantHi Shelby.
Technology eh, how helpful – nothing like having to retype something you have already done…especially when tired and busy.
Anyway, good to hear from you as ever. I hope your Mum’s memorial went ok, that’s got to be tough to get through still.
But fantastic news on your first booking – that’s great! Yeah, scary but first steps and all that. Just imagine where it could take you 2 years from now! Good on you.
I know you didn’t mean it to be funny but did have to smile at the idea of travelling to the shop being too far, know what you mean there. Yeah, I always thought a break-up was two kind of losses, one of the actual person/relationship and the other being the future you had imagined in your head, knowingly or not.
The second loss is the one that caused all the confusion for me, as in ‘well, if I’m not doing that then what am going to be doing’. It takes time to refigure out who you are without the relationship & it’s planned future/way forwards. The best thing I found was to not focus on imagining a future as I would start to panic with the not knowing and change from what I had expected. Instead I would literally focus on only doing things that made me feel better/good. So for me it was getting fit again, rebuilding friendships I’d dropped and trying to make new friends at the job I had just started – which was great timing when feeling like cr@p! As I felt better about myself, the rest started to drop into place – just don’t rush it and don’t feel the pressure to be dating again just because you think you should be “at that stage by now”. There’s no scoreboard in life, only you.
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