@NBC sorry about the delayed response, very busy with work and making time for ‘B’ and wedding planning and house viewings

The concept of sunk cost fallacy is what I have mentioned before too to @Kkasxo.

I hope @Shelbyville gets back to you, but it’s been some time since she’s been away so maybe she will not return.

Tonight I’ll have a proper read of your lengthy response and get back to you as lunch is almost over!

@NBC Given what you’ve said and the emphasis you place on a spark, if you are not feeling any initial attraction and are already repulsed, then in that situation I wouldn’t recommend forcing it.

Because you’re highly likely to manifest what you already feel – therefore will not consider him as a real serious prospect.

Personally I would give a person a chance because I have learned to prioritise getting to know someone on a non physical level. Sometimes love comes down to one of the most basic factors: proximity.

Seeing each other on a regular basis builds attraction. If after a handful of dates the chemistry or attraction is lacking, I’d be 100% upfront if I was still on the dating scene. I’d not say anything that wasn’t true to avoid the feeling of leading someone on. I.e. many men can feign attraction or love bomb “you’re so amazing/beautiful/unique” just to get in the woman’s pants or use her for a need – this is despicable behaviour.

You appear to know what you want but I’m interested to know have you ever dated someone you were not that attracted to and led them on because you felt bad for not trying?

Chemistry, physical/sexual attraction are important. However I have learned those sparks alone are not enough to sustain a romance in the long-term. Not everyone feels it immediately either and time can be the key.

You seem to have worked towards acceptance of A not reciprocating your feelings. However do you think there may still be a fear of being vulnerable and intimate again as a result of that relationship that’s why you fell for an unavailable guy – B?

If you choose online dating, you should set boundaries, not flaunt your assets. You can only be conned if you allow it. So never borrow or give something without real commitment and trust. Never do things to prove ‘love.’

I wouldn’t advise you to pursue a man. However I do advise you to get peace to that chapter with B, 5 years is far too long to be holding on and to be stalking his FB and twitter. It’s doing you more harm than good.

Do you think he’s definitely the one for you?

Really think about this. He is someone who had an emotional affair and cheated on his wife. He treated you as a crutch. Disappeared often and hasn’t taken any accountability and seeks sympathy by claiming to be a “mess”. He’s used this divorce as an excuse for his behaviour, he hasn’t stepped up so probably has undergone no growth. In Autumn you could find him in the exact space, unmoved you’ll have wasted more time.

I think us men see through your friend’s ideas. It is better to just be upfront and say I need to talk to you in person. In person, say what you feel, he can’t avoid your questions and you can better gauge his intentions.

And if he then realises he is available now and wants to pursue something. Let him do the work, you just be yourself.

If it’s a No again, you need to let go and accept he is not the one for you. You really do, if you’re still struggling see a therapist.

What he said to you in 2015 was a pre warning to avoid accountabilty if/when you fell for him. So if you went ahead knowing you would want more you have to take responsibility for being complicit because you chose to ignore the glaring red flag and warning signs indicating he was emotionally unavailable.

That doesn’t mean you deserve to be treated the way you did but you have to admit your own part. It’s part of maturing and learning to exert your self respect and worth.

Walking away. Putting yourself first instead is teaching consequences. It’s a language which works with men who push boundaries. Taking control by showing you respect yourself. It is what ‘B’ did. It made me respect her more.

@NBC

It’s only right that the time and guidance I was given is returned. So I’m glad I’m helping in someway on this thread.

The posters on here especially @Shelbyville were non judgemental and kept it 💯. So I want to carry on in that vain for others too.

It’s funny you say I’d be a good counsellor, according to ‘B’ I’m very attentive and give good advice. I think it’s a lot easier to be objective with others.

Unfortunately, I can’t tell you exactly why you are not in a committed relationship. But I can tell you never compare yourself to others, there’s no timeline you must adhere to be “successful”.  Don’t pressurise yourself, that’s when you’ll end up more unhappy.

The reason why I mentioned not lowering your physical parameters is because honestly you put a lot of emphasis on that aspect.

I thought men were the visual ones. Hence why you’re more likely to find a hot woman with an average looking man than vice versa.

But you’re giving men a run for their money ahaha!!

I suspect you’ll hurt people if you lower your standards and effectively lead them on, if you can’t re-educate your attraction. So it’s better to be upfront and not waste peoples time or play with their emotions if you know it’s a no for yourself.

It’s not inherently wrong to value physical/sexual attraction, just as long as you’re not letting that one preference dictate who you date alone. Sexual attraction is important in healthy relationships, intimacy and seeing your partner as a sexual being is what keeps partners passionate about one another.

But that said, you can change your overall attraction for someone by re educating yourself. I’m proof.

I thought I’d never develop a deep romantic attraction to ‘B’ without acting on my physical attraction and gaining ‘entry’ first. I have always been hot blooded, when I reined that in and focused on her other qualities, our love and intimacy flourished. So I lowered my physical parameters and I found an enduring bond.

I have found that most women also tend to have ridiculous checklists though before they even say hello! So assess if that is you. If so, try being more flexible and open. You might find someone who surprises you.

When it comes to ideals, values or beliefs never ever lower them (that’s an injustice to your self), the right man will wait, accept them and compromise with you.

How did healing go for me after A?

It went something like this
1. Anger – this came first for me. I was embarrassed, hurt betrayed etc.
2. Pain – unreal pain, crying, Feeling lost.
3. Shutdown – Blocked it all out never spoke a word to them again and compartmentalised.
4. “Moving on” – advised by the lads (who I’ve distanced myself from now) to go on Tinder and apps and get revenge. Followed very bad advice!
5. Became a cold dick, emotionally unavailable
6. My bros illness is what tethered me back to reality and shook me. Then all the all my emotions flooded me and literally felt like I was about to drown.
7. God sent an angel ‘B’, she pulled me out, started to heal with her and I felt something real for the first time but I screwed it up
8. She’s the woman who built me up, once I was confident and on my feet, I’m so ashamed but I just blocked out and went straight into another relationship with ‘C’. I treated ‘C’ well, and implemented what I learned from ‘B’. The sex was great, we had even labelled our relationship but I still felt so hollow it wasn’t the right fit, we both knew it so split up amicably.
9. Spent months alone faced my demons, questioned myself, explored my emotions.
10. Made peace with my ex best friend and A for their betrayal. Told them exactly how their actions impacted me, but I accepted the outcome, wished them happiness. (I no longer hate them, I’m indifferent could only reach that state by confronting the pain they caused)
11. I thought A was real love, but I recognise it for what it was – first love, that’s why it was so painful to let go. She took a piece of my heart, it will always belong to her but I would never accept that ‘love’ now.
12. Sought my own happiness based on my reflection, without the demons holding me back this led me back to ‘B’.
13. Made amends with ‘B’
14. Found the meaning of real love in ‘B’ – my soul is at peace.
15. Learning and growing together.

It was an emotional rollercoaster. Confronting and working through all my emotions ultimately healed me. That included admitting my pain, guilt, mistakes, apologising, acknowledging what love is and isn’t etc.

You may not be averse to commitment whilst infatuated because infatuation by it’s very nature is thrilling and exciting. So you chase it. You said yourself you are very physically inclined. Maybe when that wears off you have no real experience or knowledge of what you need in a solid adult relationship. You may not know what real love entails or is meant to feel like? So maybe you need to create a list of things that are not physical which are vital for your soul.

When I say content in my own skin, with A I placated a lot, I did things for her just to keep her. I was not 100% authentic. Even though I wasn’t consciously aware that she was about to betray me. Subconsciously I was reacting already, I would bend over backwards to cater to her and make her happy that same energy was not returned.

When I reunited with B, I made it clear, I would never disrespect her again but I would never be a YES man again either. With B I can be grouchy, fully authentic and feel content knowing she loves me regardless. In all my relationships she’s the first to ever comprehend my emotional needs. I’ve never experienced that and honestly it’s just an incredible feeling. So although I’m happier with my improvements and who I’ve become as a man. Naturally in a relationship you need a partner who will also accept all of you. Otherwise it’s not love.

B and I are not together during this lockdown and I miss her tremendously but I also feel security on my own. So relying solely on someone else to give you that feeling is when you know it’s not healthy.

You asked if you are content on your own, what do you need a partner for?

You need a partner for exploration of sexual desires – you could do this casually or on your own but it’s so hollow compared to when you have a loving partner.

You need a partner as a companion – you can share thoughts with friends but finding a best friend in your partner is incredible. The intimacy increases. You have that one person who is your rock and vice versa.

You need a partner who can challenge you to grow – having B there supporting me, has resulted in emotional growth, increase in productivity, positive impact on all my relationships etc.

Procreation – creating mini me’s together to teach etc is incredible. You can do this without a partner but not a route I’d pursue. I’m very traditional in certain things.

Relationships show us how to love. Help with emotional wellbeing, create further purpose and stability in life. As long as you’re with someone who allows you to be authentic, being in a relationship can be better but it comes down to being in the right relationship.

Each to their own in regards to preferences. Whether that’s sugar daddy or toyboy. But with the 15 yo be wary, even if you’re kindred spirits it’s easy to fall into a trap, when given much needed attention after a long time.

I learn from others experiences and researching, and the therapist is just a suggestion. I had suggested a couple therapist to B when we first reunited but in the end by being transparent with each other we have achieved a strong foundation of respect and trust.

It’s important to be open though, there’s no harm in exploring an idea from someone it might lead to your answer inadvertently.

For example @Shelbyville proposed the theory of journeymate. I’d never come across this before. Instead of just accepting or dismissing it I researched it. In the end it challenged me and spurred me to get meaning rather than move on.

I found healing with the right person – B. But I had to also reach a place by myself. I knew it was vital to offer her something too. It has to be balanced. Otherwise your partner will feel like a ‘therapist’ or parental figure and attraction declines and they begin to feel emotionally drained, resentment kicks in etc.

I don’t know how @Shelbyville is doing right now or her timeline with men. I’m not aware of her full story but @Sammy may be able to help she’s read this whole thread. Hopefully she can report back to you if Shelbyville doesn’t.

Exceptions prove the rule exists. B and I are not the rule. But if you really want something you make an exception. You fight for it. The ladies on here all told me to leave ‘B’ to heal and move on. I knew deep down there was unfinished business, I wanted to be her exception, she was mine. She wanted me enough and allowed me to be.

Online dating is an option, may suit you as you can filter out anyone you visually can’t see yourself with but you have to be on guard, many catfish and con artists lurk there.

After 5 years, he is still on your mind, you haven’t found closure by yourself so contacting him sooner rather than later will stop you possibly wasting more of your life! Yes your ego might take a hit because you said there have been multiple opportunities for him to inquire about you – and nothing.

However right now you are in a holding space. Unable to move forward. So why will you give him a further 6 months to play on your mind. Get your answers now, ask him about the ambiguity, the future anything you feel you need. If he rejects you, wrap it up and heal. By autumn you can then focus on finding the right one if it’s not him!

That’s what I would do.

Men are notoriously good at playing games, it’s partly that intrinsic hunter mentality.

Some men are Narcs, some just fuckboys and some like me display the disgusting behaviour because of insecurities and a need for CONTROL due to past rejection and broken relationships.

I’m not proud of myself but I’ve been through that immature phase of mind games and power battles.

Unfortunately many men will push boundaries to test how much they can get away with, it’s used to suss out who is game or DTF and box you into categories. So women get labelled and because men are so good at compartmentalising. You get stuck there unless growth occurs.

Here’s the thing, due to my preconceived notions, I categorised ‘B’. How wrong was I?

‘B’ turned out a very classy woman who despite her kindness is no doormat. She knows what she needs in a relationship so can be vulnerable with her feelings, that includes discussing her sexual desires but would never sacrifice her values to attain the affections of a man.

Does that mean as a man I should assume she is a w***e for discussing natural desires? Or I’m owed sex because I’m dining her? At one point insecure me was butthurt and I’ll admit my immaturity and lad behaviour made many misconceptions about her based on the “rules” i.e. she was a cocktease etc

I grew up. Some men don’t.

They’ll continue to use a woman’s reaction to their behaviour to deduce whether she is a certain type of person that they can get away with flouting the boundaries.

Some disgusting men go as far as luring the woman into believing that there are no repercussions for going along with their action.

Some of them will make a judgement about you and use this to not only write you off as a serious prospect for a relationship, but give themselves the green light to mistreat you.

If men discover that there are very few ‘barriers to entry’ because there are no real consequences to any of their behaviour, in spite of the fact that they are aware they are morally wrong, they ultimately know you have issues with self-esteem and boundaries so they play it to their advantage.

‘B’ is very emotionally aware, a nurturer. She can see shades of grey, but when someone blatantly crosses her boundaries (like I did) and continued doing things i.e total contempt and inappropriate, the answer was she had the self respect to not accept it or to analyse the crap out of my behaviour anymore. She walked away.

So you teach men with consequences, the only real language they understand.

Don’t accept bad behaviour because in normalising you not only become distanced from yourself and your values, needs, and wants, you’ll end up in a very toxic situation which will affect your own self esteem!

That’s why I respect ‘B’ so much now, she was kind and perceptive to make allowances because she recognised I was hurt. However she always had a strong sense of self. She wanted me very much but NO – she never crossed her own boundaries to get me and walked away making it clear no one would get all of her without commitment.

Breaking bro code here but I’ve learned to respect women, this is how players and immature boys think:

• When a woman takes you up on Netflix and chill then  expect to be having sex.

• Whole quid pro quo exchange thing – buy her things or dinner and expect sexual favours in return

•  “I don’t want to end up hurting you” or “I don’t deserve you” is 9/10 either a cop out and they are trying to get out of the relationship or they lack self control and will, in fact, hurt you. He is prepared to have sex with you and he is also not prepared to take any responsibility for your hurt feelings when he dumps you.

• “I’m not your typical guy” someone trying so hard to tell you he is unique usually means he can’t be trusted. If he was unique his actions would speak for themselves.

• Study his friends because honestly if he hangs with immoral, narcissistic people, it’s bound to rub off. It did on me. It’s true the company you keep is telling.

For the most part guys are very straightforward. If he’s being upfront or dropping something in there then there’s a reason and truth in it. Heed the warning!! He’s doing it to manage expectations so he can clear his conscience and sleep easy.

@NBC I’ve never looked in my emails until today. It appears @Dannydan is my tag. I normally check in when I’m free and reply to any posts addressed to me.

In your situation, objectively I can state there was a glaring red flag there from the beginning (married man – I don’t judge you btw) so no matter how cautious you were planning on being you were setting yourself up for a fall.

Well done for not sleeping with him. He was always going to fail you because there were 3 people in the equation, the times he pulled away was probably when he tried to reconcile or reconnect with his wife. Even if their relationship had ceased to exist I guarantee mentally his ex took up a lot of his headspace and it’s looking likely he used you as an escape hence the 2017 response.

You said you should give it a year but some men can remain emotionally unavailable forever after a broken relationship and never grow.

The key is to never wait for anyone, open your heart and you might find better, move forward and if he re enters willingly then entertain any lingering desire if it’s still there. Think about it if he really misses you and has regrets he will do what I did, overcome the fears and change his way by growing up. Act like a real man and show up. Otherwise he probably sent the message in 2019 out of boredom. Don’t message him, that’s my advice.

You should never settle if you are not having your needs met. When you do settle for less, then needs always have a way of making their way to the surface. So keep searching but don’t make it your whole purpose. There is more to life than being in a relationship.

I wish @Shelbyville could reply to you because you mentioned you feel like her. However it got me thinking at one point I too was like that wanting what I couldn’t have. It posed a challenge. Then I matured and flipped my mentality.

I realised it was the other way around where subconsciously I was pushing away someone that wanted me (B).

When someone says you are enough it’s almost like all these alarms go off saying error error. You project and think there’s something wrong with the other person when really most often it is an inner issue within us.

Sometimes it is the other person not being the right person but that’s why you ask yourself serious questions and discover your exact needs/wants in a serious relationship, to separate genuine doubts from fears.

If this is repeatedly happening and you are only allowing yourself to like people whom you already know subconsciously don’t feel the same about you then it’s highly probable that’s it’s also happening in other issues of your life. It’s all in one’s mentality : you are in that space of insecurity, neediness and unworthiness.You feel like you are not good enough and you are nervous about being rejected and seek validation.

I understand the need for that combination of emotional, romantic, sexual and intellectual connect. I need that too, everyone does. ‘B’ possesses all 4 now but at one point I never felt that romantic attraction.

It took time and compromise, even though emotionally I could share deep things, felt at ease. Intellectually we’re on par. Sexually I couldn’t keep my hands of her, her banter is enough to arouse me etc. The love and being vulnerable took time.

Many people feel very beholden to their libido, thinking that their lust is some sort of chemical fairy godmother that predicts sexual and thus romantic compatibility. Don’t fall into that trap.

After all liking those who don’t like you has never ended well has it? The betrayal of A. The rejection by B. So how mutual was it really?

• This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by Danny.

@NBC

To tag someone put @ in front of their username like above.

This thread by @Shelbyville has been a huge part of my decisions so I hope it equally helps you. The posters on this thread are wise, warm, challenging, fair and non judgemental. I’m happy to return the warmth I received.

Don’t let anyone stop you from dreaming. Life can be whatever you will, with a positive vibe.

Yes, your definition of chemistry is in line with mine. Initially I used to think chemistry was purely fireworks and physical but I’ve evolved and matured.

I’m sorry to read of your betrayal those type of relationships can leave deep wounds and unless we face the pain head on and reach peace, the wounds will continue to impact subsequent relationships. I hope you have taken time to work through your emotions surrounding that chapter in your life.

In reference to your ‘B’ it appears you definitely shared a very deep emotional bond. Often this can be the basis of an incredible relationship. However from your dialogue there also seems to have been different mitigating factors to B and I.

You asked for reasons why he hasn’t contacted you or pursued a serious relationship now he’s a free man. Here are some reasons (good and bad)

1) You mentioned he finally got a divorce, which is a big decision. He probably has not healed. Hence the possible reference to being a “mess” – if this is the case he’s done you a favour by not reinserting himself back into your life when he can’t give you an equal footed relationship. Becoming involved with an emotionally unavailable man would only bring you pain and eventually resentment.

2) Although you perceived your bond to be deep and meaningful. He’s a man he may have compartmentalised and boxes you off as his form of escapism or emotional crutch ☹ – if he was not divorced when you met or still hung up on his relationship with his ex then that is also emotional cheating on his part. You’re lucky to have escaped yourself in that case! You deserve better than that type of relationship.

3) If he made mistakes like me but the connection was genuinely real then he maybe hasn’t reached an impasse? He hasn’t done any growth. You shouldn’t wait for him. You should always carry on if your paths converge again then if you feel so strongly still then go for it. B did this she moved on, was happy and striving still.

4) Oh another thing to note about men is we can be physically attracted, have great chemistry but not develop romantic attraction due to an inner conflict. Maybe he is confused like I was so doesn’t even know what he needs or wants. Unless he explores he will waste his own time and continue to do that with anyone he encounters.

If your relationship was like mine and ‘B’ with reflection any guy would have incredible regret. But not many can put their pride/fears aside to act on it.

I can only derive conclusions based on experience and typical male behaviour.

However, so many questions and pain could be resolved by just communicating directly with him. Given it has been 5 years I suggest you do contact him and ask him directly you have nothing to lose, it seems you had no closure to that chapter.

‘B’ was always the type to let bygones be bygones and break any silence because she is just so open, kind and nurturing. So when she didn’t contact me and the months rolled on. Do you know what my ego had me believe?

She was not genuine, she didn’t care etc and I projected my negative feelings onto her. Had I not grown up my ego could have cost me so much. A lot of the times it’s nothing to do with the other person but our own conflicts.

Making amends with ‘B’ brought so much to the surface for both of us and it was cathartic. Even if she had chose to not try again, I know I had done the best thing for both our souls and healing.

Why do I think you haven’t found someone new? It could be a whole range of reasons, the answer lies within you.

• Have you genuinely invested in yourself and moved on?
• You may be comparing the new prospects to him?
• You still hold hope for him?
• You think you want commitment but deep down you do not know what you want or need in a relationship?
• You may have low self esteem and think you don’t deserve better as a result of your other betrayal.

I think the main thing is you don’t have closure. If you did you’d make better choices for yourself and not curve so many people for one person who after 5 years failed to step up.

You need acceptance and peace, with self discovery you may be able to give it to yourself like ‘B’. You just need to clear your thoughts and listen to your soul and do what’s best for you.

Maybe you haven’t found someone new because your wounds from this “emotional affair ” are still there 5 years on alongside the betrayal and you don’t realise you deserve better?

What i did for ‘B ‘ may read as a fairy tale and I don’t want people to think that’s it – happily ever after. I deeply wounded another person and currently things are bliss, but I still have a long way to go. Although some of the bits you’ve read are romantic and our connection really is beautiful there was a lot of pain and sometimes in all honesty I wanted to throw in the towel. Its working at it together and that’s what is key.

I don’t have any close female friends, I’ve always been between billy no mates or a lads lad! I am a very hot blooded male so if I was physically attracted to a woman that I happen to be very close friends with, I’d probably ruin the friendship. Which is why finding my best friend and lover in ‘B’ is so special. On flip side I have double to lose.

You know my brothers partner he once saw her like his bros but one day something changed. So you never know don’t rule out all your male friends. Timing plays a big role.

In the end it may just be a number game if you are well developed, mature and emotionally healthy!

Hope it helps mate!

Hi @NBC,

I never thought I’d be welcoming someone but it feels so cool! So howdy and come on board mate. The folk on here are sweet 👌

Thanks for your well wishes, still can not digest the kindness of you all!

I have to say though, I really don’t believe in happy ever afters. Maybe the betrayal I experienced with ‘A’  or just maturing to realise relationships are not easy and can’t be reduced to living happily ever after also can humans ever really be happy?!

That’s a really interesting question you posed though mate! Short answer is Yes and No ahaha.

It boils down to how do you define chemistry? Many people have different definitions.

Some people describe it as purely a spark or butterflies they feel based on physical attraction.

Some people describe it as an instant “click” with someone.

For me with maturing I’d describe chemistry as a combination of desire and emotional connect.

Did I have chemistry with ‘B’ the first time?

100% yes.

How?

We could text or calls for hours. The connection was instant and I felt like I had known her forever, we emotionally vibed. Convo always flowed. I’d find myself trying to resist talking to her to play it cool.

When we would meet for dates, we enjoyed each others company so much even without sex, we’d lose track of time.

When I saw ‘B’ in person, I’ve always had to resist putting my hands where I shouldn’t- just being honest. We always had natural sexual banter and even now flirt up a storm which is fun until this day. The sexual chemistry was there.

There is a very very fine line which differentiates a best friend from a lover – that’s sexual desire. If you fantasise, share a more intimate bond or desires you’re not just best friends!! It would feel confusing to feel that way about a friend, that’s when you know you’re in trouble, it’s more!

Now was my chemistry for ‘B’ the driving force for my epiphany?

Yes and no.

Yes chemistry can show you the huge potential that you and another person can have in a relationship. It’s the beginning of something beautiful, but ultimately romantic attraction requires work. To become lovers you need to spend more time together, it would not have blossomed into the love we share now if we didn’t work at it.

So was chemistry the primary force for me to reflect and go back?

No, my reflection occured from reaching an impasse in life. I felt hollow and questioned (I posted some of those questions previously) what I needed and wanted. Who I was? Etc.

I went back to ‘B’ –  because of many factors that of which includes the chemistry. If the others didn’t exist i.e. emotional understanding or shared goals I wouldn’t have reconciled. I matured to respect her values, and cherish the qualities which I took for granted. This angel stopped me from drowning, inspired me to be better and that’s not just down to chemistry, its down to her as a human being. Finding a person who does that within you is rare.

I know if our love, God forbid, doesnt withstand the test of time alongside it I’ll lose the friendship. You can never go back, so you must cherish it.

Does that answer your question NBC?

You mentioned the men never had an epiphany, did you want that from all of them? You don’t need them to be validated.

Also a woman should never need to chase a man. A real man always steps up even if he is erroneous. Those men you dated  most likely never returned not because it’s a reflection of you but them:

A) never had serious intentions – so you’re well rid

B) Not many men can brave facing hard truths and growing. It was really challenging and painful for me. It’s sometimes  easier for men to compartmentalise and move on rather than fight. This can be down to low self worth or just that they don’t know what they want!

Hope it helps, feel free to ask more. Happy New Year to you!

@Aiyana thanks mate,  that’s very kind of you to take time out to wish a stranger well. I don’t think we have spoken before but I do recall you posting a message to @Shelbyville if you need any advice please do ask. Wishing you a happy new year!

@Sammy not a problem mate! Zoom and Teams is driving me nuts today myself. Looking forward to 6pm!