Yeah, its true. I always wanted his attention, perhaps more reservedly than with mum. Mum I always wanted affection, hugs, etc plus the usual showing her what I had done, drawings etc. With dad I didnt want hugs… indeed I think quite early I felt uneasy around him in that respect and actually I still dont feel “safe” etc hugging my father like when I hug my mum or my bf.

Dad… hmmm I think my brother coems into view here. My brother is nine years older. I always remember how my brother had a good relationship with dad, they would joke about cars etc, manly behaviour (not that my brother is super macho or whatever), my brother did rowing, as my father did, my brother did boxing too. I always felt like I had nothing to offer, that I needed to grow into that relationship with my father but it never materialised. I never thought of having “my own” relationshiup with my father… indeed even defining it as such, this is the first time that thought ever crossed my mind.

I think there was a little conflict when dad started to push for more masculine kind of behaviour… I remember once he was coaching the rowing team and I was a kid riding on the bike, he said I could shout support to the team… I was embarrased and kind of cried, even though he had encouraged me and that was the behaviour he wanted to me express.. I was only 6 or 7…

Perhaps… I certainly feel that with my father… My mother not so much, i~ve always been closer and know her pain (like everyone, her parents had issues, she had a crappy mother). I can “forgive” her in some way, I think perhaps because the pain she caused was much earlier in my life… when I was older she was supportive… hmm but actually supportive in my contempt towards my dad when he was in and out of our lives… But, she was loving. She supported my drama, took me on little trips while dad was off with another woman… (he would return at least once a week, insult me somehow and make me feel liek a disappointment, then argue with my mother and leave… me, a teenager, my mother going through menopuase)…. I see a lot of sympathy for my mother… We were together, just me and her, for about 6 years while my father~s presence was patchy. She was unemployed, depressed, being cheated on and only got dressed before I came home from school…

I can see too ,when I was a baby, both my parents were unemployed, very stressed. BUt…they always said how my crying would keep them up at night, in fact, they still talk about this when my nephew cries etc, how they dont like that my sister in law responds to him instantly… as if he should learn to not cry somehow? On some moral level? as well as because.. of course boys dont cry. I seperated from my mum and dad at some point… maybe in my despair at losing my identity, I reattached? Is that a thing?

Dad… hmm for sure, I want justice. I know I want it, but I sort of shy away from actually getting it. I remember when I was 17 I shouted at him for at least an hour about all the pain he had caused me… I was drunk after a party. He accepted… sat quietly… he was attentive, I could see pain and hurt, regret etc on his face, but he didnt really open up about why… indeed everytime, he sort of turns it back towards me. He does this to my mother too when she pleads for him to just accept he had an affair so she can hear him admit it and move on… he gets annoyed that she brought it up again and tells her shes the one who disturbed the peace… (peace which is think is just both of them being tired arguing their entire relationship)…

I felt vindicated when I had shouted at dad… I still create arguments in my head with him.. but, a part of me goes… please, can we just leave this alone and move on with life? Im not sure, I think, which part of me says that… is it me? Genuine me? Me who is tired of carrying this baggage? Or is the the scared part in disguise trying to not trigger dads disapproval? I want to be at peace, you know? I tell myself shouting at him isnt the solution. But, I notice im frustrated all the time and shout at other pepole… innocent people on the bus for example… well, not shouting, aloud… I get angry and call them names in my head. But, this is exhausting, I want ot love the world I live in and this negative energy is draining. I see dads problems too, his father who was in the war, saw terrible things and wasnt emotionally available at all except for extreme fits of anger, which my dad has, and I have too…

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by Ben.

Thanks.

I also get nervous and resntful towards useful advice too… I was reading something you wrote earlier, and also remembering advice a friend had given me… I used to sort of get resentful to what dad said sometimes. Sometimes, people say things and I know they are right, they are good for me, but I sort of self-sabotage? I dont assimilate, I assimilate like its been corrupted. It gets assimilated, but tainted with dads energy. I~m remembering this from childhood and adolescence too. Dad started to give constructive advice, but, in a way, because he had given it, even tho it made sense, I sort of refused to act it out. I stayed i nteh middle ground. I stayed in at home rather than go out and get a job, which would have given me money and independence and confidence. But, he had told me it would give me these things, so, I refused because I wanted to do tthings my way.

But, I sort of sabotaged myself in this… even at university, getting a job was hard, and didnt feel like a reflection of me, because it was always dads voice, and I hated the idea of pleasing it, or pleasing him. Then.. idk what happened. I sort of tried to act like that was a good idea, I think… after I lost myself.

Today, I can see how I can feel better… I know what I have to do… but I have locked up again… for some reason, perhaps related to this impulse with listening to my dads good advice… I know that im sat here and can feel completely the same as I did yestyerday, but I feel like no, I have to stay like “this”… for some reason. I don~t understand it.

Im not letting myself enjoy life. Maybe it would be letting him get away with it, in my current state of being too close to my parents for my own good. I dont feel powerful enough to be alone, yet I did yesterday, I didnt feel any need for my boyfriend (love for him, yes, but not for his validation)…

Actually writing tyhis i~m feeling quite strongly, perhaps denying it, persecuted or punishing myself for ever involving myself again with my boyfriend… its actually pushing me away from him… from letting this be my story… my dads condemnation. I cant just think well, whatever happens happens, its all a great book to write when im old… like I used to see life. Even tho the problems with me and my relatiponship with my boyfriend are scary and trigger some anxziwty and abandonment in me, it feels like the end of the world because… rather than it all being an amazing experience of both highs and lows, instead, theres some sort of rule book im breaking… this mysterious life that he holds for me where I only know what ive done wrong and seemingly never do anything right… or even when I do, it could have been improved… If me and my boyfriend falter, its almost like I couldnt take the hit, not because its upsetting, I can cope, but almost I couldnt see a future for myself… how could I be gay and let a relationship fail? Wouldnt that prove gay men cant be together properly? (punsihing thoughts of look how promiscious and open gay men are with sex…) Thats clouding my relationship I think, importantly cloduing my relationship of myself… I cant leave my bf alone too because I have to prove its a loving relationship all the time as well as my abandonment issues making me cling to him. But this weakness is contrary to my originalyl formed self as a worldly confident traveller of the world who simply wanted a companion to travel with, share experiences with… I see myself pressuring myself to live in a life of having a fast German car (like dad wants) and a house in the UK, a good job in a bank…

• This reply was modified 6 years ago by Ben.

Thanks anita.

This is very true. I think this is one of the core causes of my identity problems.

Remember i’d said his comment “why are you gonig to brazil? because youre gay? because you like men?” was so damning? So unexpectedly hurtful? I think I realised now why it was. It was a mystery at the time, because I had been at university for 3 years and had, as you said, been creating new pathways. I had started accepting myself. But, I think, with it so deep inside, I had not “unlearned” or left dormant for long enough those shaming pathways that are so strong. So along comes he with that statement and it destroyed me on some level. Thats why I was incapable of feeling happy or fulfilled or enjoying anything. All sensuality had disappeared. I couldnt properly be in the relationship with my boyfriend, couldnt go and commit to him, or anything for that matter.

I think, quite genuinely, I still have that inside me. Indeed, after my “identity crisis”, I clung closer to the ideals of my parents, especially my father. In a weird way I started to think, oh, I can help him or understand him better, I can be closer to him, I~’m doing a masters degree at a good university etc. But I lived in shame and didnt enjoy my life.

But, a new definition of strength… thats whats missing. Thats what I had gained and lost because of him. Thats what I had lost again these last days (tho I feel it will come back). I still resent myself for being effeminate, even tho I accept it. I dont hate it, I dont hate myself. But I dont love myself or let myself express it anymore. I kind affected a change, which I suppose is just adapting to my suroundings (I dont feel like I repress my effeminate side). But, my sexuality is dented, so is my sensual connection to the world, or perhaps, just my connection to the world as a whole.

While i~m writing this, I keep looking back at what you wrote… that what he said is not true. I used to believe that, and got grumpy towards my parents ( Ithink in my first post I wrote how I was so distanced from them when I was at my strongest in university)…. but then, guilt or remorse or some emotion over powers me. I want to be close to my parents. I love my mother a lot… do I love my father? I used to hate him so much… I feel like that is juvenile (after all hate isnt useful either, but I dont know how to constructively feel/think about my father)… I keep waiting for reconciliation, perhaps that time has passed. I see he is more honest, open and constructive with me on so many other things, he is not judgemental of everything I do now. (I still do no sports and am still gay after all)… I keep hoping for something, but maybe this occupies too much of my life.

That its not wrong to be who I am… gosh, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel where I believe that honestly and earnestly… but its so hard to break out of the slumber. I dont feel like I am qualified to recognize myself as the man I am. I dont have any grounds to call myself a man, a person, a force in the world.

Hi Anita

Thanks, that really makes it clear.

Home is the UK for me. I’ll be back for christmas. Perhaps its interesting that I call the UK home, i.e. simply because my parents are there… shouldnt home be where I live? I know my birth country and my parents house will always be home in one sense but actually I think I feel it more like that. A bit like im still a child.

Case in point: yesterday I talked with my parents on the phone for the first time in 3 or 4 weeks, and after the trip. I had told my mother about it, mostly in case something happened during the trip. I also, when I was desperate and writing to everyone all the time, told her all about the situation with my bf. So, unfortunately Dad new as well.

Mum is usually supportive of me, not necessairly of my choices but she respects the choices I made. She didnt get nervous or angsty about the trip, even tho I felt like I had betrayed some trust or scared her unncessairily.

Dad… well, he sat silent for a long time, then said “Probably what i~say will be shouted down, but I don’t understand why you re introduced all that angst back into your life, you were much better independent”… At the time, I was ready for this. I knew he wouldnt approve, he liked my ex a lot when he visited previously, even called him another son. But now clearly he really doesnt like him anymore… and doesnt like my choice to go see him. THis morning, Ive woken up feeling much more depressed. Resigned to things… like im weak again, which I think is what my father was implying I was by going to see my ex.

My counsellor here said “dont tell everyone everything, keep things to yourself sometimes”… I realised that a few weeks ago, and on the trip again. Its actually exhausting to rake over it again and again. But, I felt happy with hte changes I had made, the progress, the growth. I wanted to share it with mum (and dad). I was prepared to hear a grumble from dad. But, it appears I wasnt totally ready. Im on robot mode again, a bit lost, feeling too ensconced in fantasies again rather than reality. I talked about it too with my friend again last night, and I could feel energy and security draining… I was aware and said OK this is the last time.

Sigh…

As you had said with targeting the anxiety, my old techniques had come back the last couple days. Of noticing, but not engaging with the thoughts, and returning to the present. I made several changes, sent important emails off, reorganized my room, wanted to go shopping to buy some stuff to spruce up the place a little… Now though its more complicated, a bit like I hold onto them but ignore them at the same time? I~m glum again.

Thanks again!

Thanks for your reply Anita.

We looked a lot for rings, but unfortunately im allergic to silver, and gold is super expensive. There were no alternatives so we didnt buy a pair despite much searching. I think it would have really helped tho, it would have a symbolic, physical presence that I could look to. My mind is too volatile at the moment to hold onto a relationship while hes away. A ring to look at, to feel on my hand, would allay those fears so much better than thnking about it. Ho-hum.

Some more reflections:

I~m struggling with the anxiety still. Moving back into the rythym of life here in the city, its only 2 days back and i’ve almost totalyl forgotten the experiences of the trip. The sensations, relaxation, connection to the environment. I also keep worrying like im forgetting what we said to each other. I keep zero-basing the relationship again, forgetting all the commitment he said.

I also realised tho so much of my behaviour I trigger the anxiety myself. On the trip I was constnatly looking at his phone when he was typing next to me. Whos that? Why is he saying that? Oh, hes talknig to an American guy about Argentina? Practically cheating…. wait a minute!!! I was constnatly searching for betrayal. Making myself anxious, as if its only ticking clock, a countdown to doom. I keep stalking him on instagram (We are still not friends on facebook, which I think is a blessing at this point). He posted a picture of a meal, a guy was tagged. WHO IS THAT? (Well, probably a friend right? Even if he was cheating, and why would he, why would he be so stupid as to tag the guy in a place he knows I can see!?) My brain fires so rapidly I lose the moment and start worrying and feeling betrayed. Then a compulsion to talk to him, message him, feel secure again overwhelms me. But… this is the guy who was going to put a ring on my finger last week! This is what I struggle with. In a way, its easy and simple to stop but its the hardest step to put this anxiety down. I hope I can get back to where I was. Learn what to process, what to leave, what to simply turn off.

I like a lot what you said. He is scared to get to close, im scared to get too far. I just hope we can slowly work it out. Whenever he talks about independence, it hurts me a lot, but I realised I heard it as “I never want to spend anytime with you”, which is stupid, even on the trip he would spend a couple hours each day with me. I got anxious too because Im constnatly imagining us moving in with each other straight away. He wants to finish his masters dissertation after his travels, and wants to do it at home, in the quiet rural north, where his professors are. Its about 2 hours flight away. I want him to live here with me, but I live in a huge noisy city… not really disseration writing territory. I also want to earn a bit of money in the city and stay near my counsellor a little longer. Nothing really wrong right? The distance is annoying and a source of anxiety but I could work on that now. We both love travelling, he says sometimes he wants to travel solo. Indeed, I can see myself travelling solo (doing Spanish courses etc) in the context of hte relationship. But what am I thinking? He doesn~t want to be with me! Why hasnt he cancelled all his travels, or invited me? Why isnt he begging me to quit my job here and go live with him immediately! Why is he happy with all this dsitance!!!! Ahhhhhhhhh.

Even if I go move up north with him (as I think will happen, he wants to look after his mother), I know that in my current state I will start to dissolve into him. I fear being isolated actually, which is my problem not his. Im the one who needs to step up, make an effort to speak portuguese and make my own friends, even here in the city. I get insulted when he tries to get me to meet people (getting rid of me, wants me to hang out with friends… because he wants to get rid of me) rather than thinking oh wow, new people to meet! Just what I imagined doing when I was a kid and teenager, living in a country with a guy I love and meeting new people! Having friends and a life in a foreign country! My teenaged self, even my 21 yr old self, would be dead with joy if I told him that.

But then, along come all the doubts. All of them.. not logistical or realistic, but all the neurotic anxieites. I can~t live like that. He cant cope and I wouldnt cope either. So I dont know what to do on that front. I still feel like I betray him by taking up anything, meeting people, even looking at other guys, like my entire sexuality should be dedicated exclusively to him. I close off expeirences because of him.. but why?

Thing is I keep these… the anxieties. Even ones that are totally for me.

I don’t keep the moments like him falling asleep in my arms the last two nights on the bus. I dont keep the moment we couldnt stop laughing cos I fell over in a ditch when we went to sit in the moonlight. Even the moment he asked me about hte rings, I just tell myself ugh he felt compelled to say that… not, oh gosh he loves me that much! How valued I must be to him!… Nope, even buying rings I think of as being a chore for him! I dont let myself feel the joy that someone wanted to commit to me like that… im waiting for the next disappointment I can blame on myself. Just as I feel like ive forgotten them instantly and need to check the relationship still exists, I assume he has forgotten them all too and that, now he hasnt messaged me on whatsapp, hes gone! He hasnt… clearly, but the feeling or neurosis is as such.

I notice im getting tangled up with his issues too tho. I know my craving for anxiety is the perfect nemesis to his craving for independence. I read about the two attachment issues, one craves the other avoids, we clearly have these opposites. I struggle with thinknig how to help him with his problem, to help him, not just to substitute my own lack of self esteem. I think he detects that, or senses it. It happened when we were together before… I would try to force it out of him… the boundary between helping someone you love so theyre happier, so the relationship works a little smoother, and between selfishly trying to force him to be closer to me… to cling to me as I cling to him (which perversely I would find horribly unattractive).

Indeed, do I just need to let him come to the conclusion himself rather than “helping him”. Is the relationship sustainable with those two opposite forces? My unhappiness motivates me to change myself. But he is content, will he change? Should he change? Does he need to change for it to work? Am I the problem? (Not me, but my never ending, insatiable anxieites?)

I also think I still dont take the relationship seriously. I think I dont trust him. Half justified because afterall he ghosted me when he blocked me which, even though everytime it comes up he gets a little mournful about and says sorry as if he regrets it, I dont assimilate this. Living in the past? But  the other half I just dont get and seemingly cant get rid of. I think if I just trusted him a lot of this anxiety would go away. I could plan, relaxxxxxxxxxx and take my life and our life as it comes. But perhaps this is where I need the therapy, can I not trust because of dad etc? (Indeed maybe he, my ex, needs to ask himself the same question)

thanks again. This post was a lot of reflection.

Tough words to read but I understand. I always avoided thinking it was over. We never had actual time together.

Trying to put myself in his position tho, I understand it. Especially with what you say, it feeling an impulse. Maybe he is asking himself if it is an impulse or something real.

We had planned things, but each time I’ve brought them up he’s retreated. Maybe I pushed too much.

What I don’t understand is his behaviour. Fine if it hasn’t worked but why isn’t he being honest? Now he’s clearly being passive aggressively quiet towards me. I mean culturally Brazilians are atrocious at commuNication. I can’t be bothered to force him to give me an answer. I’ve done enough.

At the same time I have one more week on this trip… Its hard to be around him. I don’t know what to say or do, I’m resentful and can’t be friendly I think neither can he.

Idk whether to wait or not. I understand your advice but I kind of understand him too, if he’s being sincere. If I met another ex and had a feeling i’d try not to act on impulse. Does that mean he’s confused but taking it seriously?

He even said, when he told me he had feelings again, lets take it slow. He said he hadn’t kissed me when we hugged in the club because he was afraid I would build up expectations. But I suppose we had good conversations, his feeling grew over the few days we saw each othet. Even then he had started retreating. Maybe I was too ready. I’ve been thinking about meeting him again since he blocked me. He had 2 years moving on, living a life, then meets me and I confuse his intentions or plans etc. Then I’m super ready and constantly talking about getting back together. Maybe it’s too weird for him?

Plus on the trip, I’ve noticed the first few days i just hung around him like a child. I kept waiting to be able to talk to him again. He was probably frustrated. And we’re then spending a lot of time together.

Plus again, differentiation wise, this is his trip. Its his uni doing it, on his subject with his friends etc. He has things to do. I enjoy it a little but I get bored on the excursions. I haven’t really been able to do anything for myself.

All the stops on the trip are about geology, in another language. I’m bored etc and then I go lurk around him. Each time he says what rock it is but I lose interest. I mean I am interested but I’m processing a lot etc.

He actually invited me after we’d talked but before we’d met. When we were just friends. Friend a going on this trip together is fine. But I think we lost ourselves then its like a husband taking his wife on a business trip. What is she gonna do at the meetings? like maybe this happens sometimes, but maybe the wife goes and does something else, not force herself to attend the meetings, sitting by her husband 24/7 trying to talk about doing the dishes or whatever and he’s trying to do business.

See this is where I get lost. I don’t know whether to write it off as me finding the wrong guy completely, or the right one but my prior issues shaking the relationship to breaking point. Or just being delusional… Thinking about what you said he always had a slightly more rational view… The distance was real, for me I was always romantically dreaming away.

What about patience being a virtue? Idk

• This reply was modified 6 years, 1 month ago by Ben.