Well… what followed was another very long video conversation.

In summary, he said that despite his best efforts, it was now increasingly clear to him how he really felt about everything, his boyfriend, and about me.

He said “slowly i’m figuring out what I really feel, and want”. I reassured him, as before, that he deserved a love that was free-flowing, not one that is constantly negotiated and that is always in the future. Him and his boyfriend were constantly “oh but when we do this” – a relationship based on some future that was never going to arrive. I said that the love I offered him was direct and unconditional – I never wanted to control him, demand anything from him in the way his boyfriend wanted. When I was saying this, he covered his eyes and was crying.

Soon after, he said that it was clear to him that he loved me, and that he had felt bad that, deep down, he loved me and not his boyfriend. “Sorry it took so long”. He said all that he had dreamed and planned to do with me was what he really wanted. He said the feelings he had passed through the previous weeks were simply showing him that he loves me, and that what he feels for his boyfriend really is just guilt and pity.

He said too he would “start the process” of breaking up – which indeed he did do right after our call. His boyfriend had called him and he had explained all he felt – he was tired of the arguments, and felt that their relationship was over. In that call, the boyfriend simply said “I don’t want to talk about it now”. As he was telling me this (via video call) he received another call from the boyfriend. I left him to answer and went to sleep, and awoke this morning.

The boyfriend it seems is a little unstable. He said he has to go to a psychiatrist now “because of what you are putting me through”… the boyfriend apparently said “Let me go there for one month, if I don’t change I will accept breaking up”.

I was terrified when I heard this… oh gosh… is he going to wait this month out?

“No,” he said “It’s the start of the process. I don’t want him to do something crazy -(I think he was referring perhaps to self harm or even a suicide threat)- and feel guilty about it. It was never going to be simple breaking up with someone like him. But I will just not react and will have to just disconnect from him”.

With that, I understood that perhaps there was some intensity from the boyfriend that was spooking him – controlling him – at the time. Someone threatening you with their life isn’t exactly an easy situation to deal with. I can see the boyfriend acting like that too, it wouldn’t be out of character, even from the little I know of him.

I reminded him that he is not responsible for the actions of others, no matter how grave. He agreed, but said too he doesn’t want to feel guilty about something for the rest of his life. He said he had imagined breaking up while the boyfriend was visiting him in Argentina, and imagined all sorts of horrible things. He said at least if he is in his hometown he will have some support there – including being referred to a psychiatrist.

Throughout the call yesterday he was saying “oh, when I visit, it’ll be like x or y” “When you come here again, x or y” “We’ll do this” – he had seemed to have quite resolutely made his mind up. “When i’m there it will be so funny to have to use google translate to talk to your parents”.  I remain a little hesitant, indeed I still can’t quite believe all of this, but I do believe him. I worry that maybe his will might be broken – his boyfriend really does seem to have some problems – but I trust him to try his best, and will just have to wait out this process. He has started out with saying that he knows it will be tough and he’s going to have many things thrown at him. So it seems he is ready.

This morning I was so nervous about it I couldn’t think about anything else. But when we called again today, I asked him if he had faith in it all, and still felt the same way – “of course I do” – well, probably my OCD whispering lies in my ear.

Aside from that, yesterday one sweet thing he said was “Would you let me care for the injury I gave to your heart?” He also made a few gestures – “what’s the size of your ring finger?” – a slightly impulsive gesture but that is a part of his character.

Thanks, Anita, as always (I hadn’t said that yet!)

edit, if I may: if he had told you and followed through with all the action it takes to make it happen. 

Most certainly!

– the need of a child for his father’s (or mother’s) love is so intense, so raw, that a romantic love story in adulthood cannot satisfy that early-life, raw longing, not for long.

Coming to think about it, you (as so many of us) have this longing too, and likely, if he did move to England and was with you, your own early-life, raw longing for a father’s love will not be satisfied for long either.

The first sentence is true. The second, I’m not entirely sure…

I did not grow anxious about him, if anything I felt more secure as time went on, I felt closer and could open up to him easily… something apparently he felt too. I also wasn’t dependent on him like my previous relationship. I could send him a message or two in a day etc. It never felt like that sort of relationship that’s all about childhood trauma, if you know what I mean. I was never bargaining with him for his affection or attention, nor bargaining with myself to tell myself he loved me. It doesn’t feel as borderline “delusional” like the previous relationship, it felt like a genuine attraction. I saw such a long happy future ahead, not the one of “oh, if just did this or that differently, or he did this or that differently, if we just resolve these issues first” – the never-ending cycle that my old relationship had and his current one appears to have.

It felt deep enough that I felt myself growing because of him. I would get sulky, but then realise that’s not the best way to act. He would be open too and help me work through whatever caused the sulkiness, or really whatever problem we had between us. He did this when I was there and right up to to the day we ended… for me, regardless of love, it was the healthiest romantic relationship i’ve ever had… I don’t feel it was (at least 100%) a sort of love-craving on my part, nor his. (My previous thread, having read a few posts, was most certainly so).

Having said that… I suppose the two threads here are proof of a childhood trauma – a lack of self-soothing!

as I said before, I think that his emotional expressions (the drawing of a heart with his hand stands out for me) are honest. It’s just that there is often a HUGE distance to bridge between the feeling in one’s heart and.. all that it takes to make practical and real-life changes.

This makes perfect sense, even my mother said it as such. “Maybe he just thought, at the end of the day, with all the distance between you both, it just didn’t seem possible for him” – (even though we had planned that I move there in a year’s time).

An object in motion tends to stay in motion (that would be him moving to England), an object at rest tends to stay at rest (that would be staying in Brazil), the undisputable laws of physics.

True. A useful analogy. I think a part of me hopes that maintaining communication will maintain it. By that, not an intense romantic love… I suppose I just would like that he doesn’t forget me. I’m obviously going to suffer from some wishful thinking… but it would just be such a shame to let it all go.

 you want this too much.

I think my feelings are intense and pushing this a lot at the moment… because, I read it and agreed,  my feelings run riot. For now at least, especially once you said about OCD, I can see the normal feelings of this situation have been amplified by my OCD. I’ve pushed and sulked for things that really I didn’t necessarily want, need or expect from him.

I’m aware of course that pushier you become, the more desperate you appear and the less control both parties feel they have in the situation. I worry too that this will toxify things, but for now I think I am grappling with these feelings. I don’t want to exhaust him by doing this, as he seems very much willing to still be friends at this point.

You can make things happen, sometimes. Less likely, if you want something too much.

I think here is also my source of conflict, and I don’t know what feeling or thought to trust, and I think it’s what’s making me feel lost. I don’t know if I can “make something happen” – persuade him or whatever – or if doing that is “wanting it too much”. A heartfelt message? Or a desperate delusion?

The conflict churns and churns. Do I swallow it all, accept what is in front of me, and we stay friends? Or do I fight for love? Or am I saying this with the words “True love wins in the end” in the background of my mind hahaha. A conundrum!

When I said I love you too him, he didn’t smile. It was a sort of childish reaction really, he raised his shoulders and titled his head and scrunched his eyes. It didn’t seem uncomfortable.

He did smile! I saw that just now. He smiled like when you say to a child how pretty or big they are.

I am lost and confused today. My anxiety worsened yesterday and maybe got the better of me.

I just don’t understand anything. How could he have chosen the other guy ?

On Saturday we had a nice phone call. Brief but a nice energy. I told him a friend of mine had moved to Madrid and that I was planning to visit him. “Oh you have time and money to visit him but not me?” Oh… he was jealous, and expressing it? I could tell from his expression it wasn’t a tease.

I then said I’d visit Brazil again, in jest, and he got jealous again when I mentioned seeing the guy there that I had been involved with.

So… apparently he still gets jealous?

At the end of the call, half out of habit, I said “I love you”. He blushed, scrunched up his eyes and then whispered into the phone “I love you”.

Oh…

On Sunday he was a bit quieter, visiting friends of his.

Then yesterday my anxiety grew, seemingly from nowhere. I’d had a terrible nightmare and was just feeling a bit down (on account of what has happened between me and him).

I said I was feeling down to him, he said focus on the good things in life. “I don’t have any”.

His reply “you have your visit here, your nephews”.

I asked if he meant “the one that’s happened?” – my hope overwhelmed me there and i had thought maybe he was referring to a future visit. I asked twice and he replied “is there a problem?”… um.. no?

I was confused… my visit there was something good? For me it’s ultimately brought heartbreak and a deep sense of confusion. I didn’t express it as such, I said it creates a sense of loss for what could have been.

His reply was that everything that’s good brings about that feeling.

I then perhaps lost myself. I said I don’t know what to say, what to do. I said I still love him, followed by some sad emoji. He replied with 3 sad face emoji.

I said I would have to forget everything. That i still have hope for us but it’s all an illusion, my love for him misleading me. He replied “I know how you are feeling”.

I said on Saturday talking about things gave me hope… but… “Oh what’s the point in talking  more”

“I don’t know”. I was terrified briefly. I said “really? You don’t want to talk to me anymore? You were so open and now so closed again, it doesn’t make sense”

“I was studying, of course I want to talk to you, haha, I’m going to do yoga”

I don’t know what I’m trying to achieve with him anymore.

A creeping thought is that he indeed loves his boyfriend more than me. Or he thinks he does. But then, isn’t that me refusing to believe someone could love me genuinely? Being perhaps a bit sulky (a tendency I have).

Why oh why is this happening

On Wednesday gone he said good morning, and said “I want to call today” – I had therapy so decided against it. So it was yesterday we called.

It was surprisingly pleasant to start off with, he had a nice energy about him. We talked normally but about nothing deep.

He said his “OCD” about cleaning had gotten worse, I said “well, usually that happens when you are anxious about something else”. He hesitated slightly and said “yes, because of various things that have happened” – cautiously, I think knowing that we both knew what he meant.

Independent of what happened between me and him, he had his exams which finished on Monday, two elderly relatives in his family died, and he was robbed in the street a few days ago too.

Anyway, we talked a bit more about his stress. At one point he said “I’m missing you” – I said “in what way?” (our chats?) – He said “In everyway”. I forget the details but eventually he said “And… well… what do you think about me now?”

I explained, I don’t know what I think. I think everything and nothing, angry then sad, I understand him then I don’t, I understand myself then I dont.

I said “how was it so easy for you? even when he was there you never made a moment to talk to me even while you were still acting like you were with me. Since before I left until now, you have essentially lost nothing, your life hasn’t changed, I have lost something enormous”

He said that it wasn’t easy for him, but that he doesn’t really share his emotions or feelings with anybody, nor does he really introspect much either. He said he just finds himself crying sometimes and lets it pass, then moves on. He said “I thought it would be easy, to end it with him (the boyfriend), then I thought it would be easy to end it with you, but it was hard, and it is hard”.

He mentioned learning English, something I had been doing, I said “well, how are you going to learn now?” – sort of in jest, to see if he would ask if I was going to help. He started “well, I taught myself lots of things… alone” – and then covered his eyes and cried a little, saying “I feel so sad for all that could have been, that i’m not going to England to see you”.

We talked some more.

He said too that during that time with the visit, the exams, the relatives passing away, he had had absolutely no time to process anything. Then he was robbed in the street and had no spare capacity. After all of these passed, (i.e in the last 7 days or so) he had time to realise what had happened, what had gone on. He said he felt completely alone. “I have no one to talk to” he says, then I say “but you have friends, family” “hmm” he replies. “Or you can call me” – “Oh, that’s much better” he says when I tell him that.

Later he said “I was pretending it was easy to end it with you, but it wasn’t, it isn’t, and it won’t be. I was pretending to not have these feelings, telling myself I didn’t feel this way. But I still feel the same”. He also said “i’ve had other relationships that were easy to end, but this one is so hard to”.

He said “some feelings in life are like a rock, that no matter what you do, smash it with a hammer or whatever, they won’t disappear”.

So, I suppose that’s how he feels. He didn’t say the word love, but did make a heart symbol with his hands. He also went on to say “you’re the only person I feel safe to share my deepest fears with. I’ve never felt so comfortable to talk about my anxieties and worries with anyone else”.

A part of me was going “well, if you feel like this, why on earth is it such a hard choice to make between me and your toxic relationship!?!!?” but I didnt vocalise this.

So well, i’m not quite sure what to do next. He really is in a pickle hahaha.

You make several good points.

I think the hardest is not knowing how he is feeling, or felt at all.

Is he doing this because, at the very end, he actually hadn’t really loved me? Or he doesn’t anymore?

I worry that if he is acting like this now, maybe he didn’t really care at all and is something of a charlatan. I don’t think 100% that he is, but it’s a doubt that plagues my mind.

It’s true I desire a lot from him… but i get upset he seemingly now desires nothing from me. I suppose that feels like being used and that’s what fuels some of the doubt.

A part of me thinks he’s sort of trying to avoid talking too much with me. Not maliciously but at least purposely. I am at such a loss.

I worry he is only talking to me out of pity. I worry he feels obligated to talk to me out of that sense of pity. Or even out of guilt. And that that is the reason why we seemingly have nothing to talk about now. A bit like it is dead forever and he doesn’t really care if he loses me, which makes me despair somewhat.

I think I have sent him “words to that effect”, but not now after some time has passed. I did say at one point that I was feeling all sorts of emotions and he said “oh dear :(” and nothing else… which didn’t help at all. But maybe now if I write something like that, I will receive some sort of honest response.

Reads like he needs space, so for as long as you choose to be in contact with him during this time, if I was you, I wouldn’t ask him any questions other than the general how-are-you? and surface questions, and not many of those. I wouldn’t share much with him either, unless he asks and then, I’d keep it short.

Yes, this was a good observation. Yet, I was confused by him admitting to missing having video calls with me today. Flattered and a little flustered. The thought of seeing him with the ring on pains me, the last video call we had was stolid and wooden. Well, it felt that way to me, but I suppose he was his usual self. It confused me because I didn’t know how far away he was after that trip, a video call is so different to just texting. That was of course when he’d said “you’re acting like i’m never going to talk to you again” – I think he said something like “it’s not as if you’ve fallen off my radar” – or words to that effect. I don’t know when to be honest with him about how I feel, when to give him space.

I struggle to even reply to him. I can’t even say “I do too” – that feels like revealing too much. “I’m still here” – maybe. Saying “yeah it’s hard” is saying we won’t call again, acknowledging its hard for him. But I do want to communicate with him. I still want to share things with him, even if they are because of mutual interests rather than future plans. I will say something today so it doesn’t seem like i’m ignoring him.

Who knows what will come of this. A part of me feels like we know where this path will lead, if we video call regularly again (unless he was just stating it to me with zero expectations, but then, he’s also showing vulnerability to me again which still indicates something inside him wants to connect with me). I am fully aware I may fall for him again and this time he will resist it to maintain his delusion of sorts and I could get hurt. A little piece of me, I suppose, is hanging onto some wishful thinking that maybe it will remind him again of the healthier relationship we had/could have and awaken him in some way. No one can tell the future, but also what is love without hope?! Once again I am entering this with zero expectations, I expect nothing from him, and if I get hurt I suppose it is a lesson for me, but one I haven’t learned yet.

I suppose some of the anxiety this triggers is that lack of knowing where it will go. Usually communication will result in a friendship, solid or not, or even the end of one. Or, if lucky, it will move into a romance and love story. Even if these don’t come to pass, there is a sort of open, empty book to be written.

This time, with him, it provokes only uncertainty in me, I don’t know really what he wants from them, either in his conscious or unconscious mind. We became friends then romanced then fell in love already. What more is there to do? He said “I want to keep your friendship, to keep our calls, my relation to you is still strong”, yet his messaging seems to be a bit more distant than merely friends, so I feel a bit confused with his admission to me.

It’s almost like he’s starting to crack again, a week after his boyfriend has left and now he’s alone again. I guess I had become a part of his life and he misses it now there’s no distraction. I want to tell him life isn’t that simple, telling me that he misses me and we can have calls. Almost, how dare he have the audacity!? He knows why we aren’t talking by video call! But I’m done with anger, maybe I love him too much to hold onto resentment to him for long.

“I feel a bit hurt remembering the last call, at one point he said “it felt good, and in the moment I had to do what felt good” – perhaps not those words exactly, but words to that effect. It gives me an anxiety“- I am lost at this moment reading this. What was he referring to by “it”? — I think “it” was the experience we had together. I don’t remember if he said ” I had to do what felt good”, something like that, like following along with how he felt. Maybe that’s how he told himself it was to justify breaking it off with me, I was indeed, as I had kept telling him in anger, “a fling”. Almost as if I made it easier for him, I suppose.

“he was expressive, extroverted perhaps, enthusiastic; you were introverted, shy. Extroversion/ emotional expressiveness can be very attractive to the introverted/ emotionally suppressive” – Yeah, I agree on that front. Usually I find myself intimidated slightly by people like this, but with him it was a major plus point.

“not expecting.. or wanting more, not only because he has a boyfriend (I am thinking) but perhaps because it is easier this way: to not be involved in a serious, ongoing, real-life relationship. Something lovely and of a short, trouble-free duration has its advantages” – 

Yeah, that was my “intention” of sorts. I guess there’s two points here. It seemed like neither of us intended for it to go anywhere extreme initially, it was so gradual when we started talking regularly, a flirt here and there. By the time I was going to arrive it was set up for some making out/love-making etc and nothing more, explicitly. I arrived there with zero expectations. Even if we had just been close friends, I would have been happy. But when we were together, just us, it seemed to develop into something else so quickly.

The other was that I never felt he had any obligation towards me (at least before we became a bit more inter-twined), I was happy with whatever attention he decided to give me, I felt happy just to be in his presence, even that evening together was enough and in a way it could have stopped there and i’d have had a magical memory. Later on he said that on that night he had wanted to kiss me and even make love (my hotel was close to the beach) but I was being “Polite” and not forcing anything (especially as I was going to meet his boyfriend the next day!).

“worst of all because plans will complicate and spoil this easy, simple love story?” – Most definitely, at least looking at it in retrospective. At the time, they seemed so real and possible, I couldn’t even imagine a world where they didn’t come true. He seemed the same. He was learning English phrases by himself, watching things in English, trying to learn them. Even with the visit he was going to make here he said “do you think your parents will like me?” and was asking about what my family liked so he would get on well with them while he was here and I was at work. We named our children, created a joint surname, planned where we would go on holidays.

“two ships that passed each other in the night, watching the physical distance grow and grow, are not going to collide and go under” For sure. This does indeed make sense. I think here, another point confuses me. The week before his boyfriend visited, I went on holiday by myself to France for a week (this is now 3 or 4 weeks ago). He was upset I was going by myself, and said “but what if you meet a French guy who is better than me? closer than me?” – this after 3 months of the immense distance we had. He was still into me 100% and still so committed to everything.

The distance was there, but the intensity never disappeared. For example, if, as time passed, the light had faded slightly, he had become more distant, the conversations more dreary/forced, I would have perhaps seen the writing on the wall. But, right up until his boyfriend visited he was so warm and constantly wanting to talk, sending me things, either love messages or things related to our mutual interests. Even at the end of the first week of his boyfriends visit, he was still saying it’s all part of the effort he’s putting in for “us, our future, our children, our lives together”.

“perhaps the why is fear of a real-life, ongoing, committed relationship” – I think this is both true and false in a way. I feared it initially because, well, the circumstances didn’t allow for it. I was happy to spend time with him because realistically it would be the only time I would get to be with this guy (live each day as if it’s your last sort of philosophy I suppose). He worked hard to convince me there was a future for us, I was the skeptical (perhaps, realistic) one at the beginning. But also it is true, there was some fear there of the unknown (as you know I haven’t had healthy relationships in the past!), but again, he was so reassuring and listened to all my doubts that I fell for him even more. One time he met a friend and I got upset as he hadn’t told me, he woke up at 4am his time to videocall and ask me all that I was feeling about the situation, to reassure me, and he accepted he’d maybe been a bit careless with my feelings. For me that was a solid foundation of a relationship.

“this is the climactic point of the story as I read it: your move toward making this relationship an ongoing, committed real-life relationship.” I still am amazed at the commitment and dedication someone managed to stir up in me!

“easy for as long as it is.. not a difficult, real-life, ongoing, committed relationship”  Yeah, the reality of the situation, it seems, dawned on him too. He had to come to terms with the fact he was in a relationship, but also completely dependent on that relationship to pursue his dream course. I think the prospect of a real relationship was not daunting for him, I think he wanted a healthy relationship. But, the reality of the situation came crashing in and well, it’s hard to love someone if you’re almost totally dependent on someone else (and, admittedly, probably not able to break up with them still).

When I try to do the old therapy technique of “imagine it from his perspective”, I do, lamentably, understand him. It’s easy to say “i’ll break up with someone i’m essentially 100% reliant on”, but it’s a very big move to make. I’m not sure i’d be able to throw that all back in someone’s face easily. Their relationship is toxic but I suppose he keeps holding out hope that they will somehow resolve all their issues, (he is 25 and maybe still a little immature when it comes to healthy relationships). I can completely see too, most likely he wasn’t really “over” this toxic relationship. Even before i’d visited, he was saying he has to break up, he has to finish it, as this relationship was toxic for them both. Yet, he never managed to. I imagine it’s because he’s still in that phase where you’re waiting for these things to be “water under the bridge” – before you realise the bridge has no foundations strong enough.

Not to get distracted, but I really don’t see them having a future either. One time he was visiting his mother and the boyfriend had an argument with him, he decided to go walk by the beach to clear his head but the boyfriend called him nearly 30 times demanding to speak with him. He was so annoyed he went and flirted with a guy on the beach and messaged him afterwards as some sort of revenge, leaving it open on his laptop after he’d returned so the boyfriend would see. Even when I was there they would argue nearly every week, one time he had to leave the house for an hour to cool off, leaving his phone there. I’m not sensing a strong, stable relationship with a bright future. Another time the boyfriend said “let’s get married at the end of the year”, which was flat out refused… i’m not quite sure that’s what you say to someone you love unconditionally.

In our final call, he’d said with me he’d never felt such “freedom” to express himself and be himself. He said he hadn’t had many arguments with his boyfriend in the visit. “I’m trying to avoid them so I don’t create a bad atmosphere”… Fair enough but I don’t think you should have to make a concerted effort to not argue. I suppose here i’m trying to understand what happened really. He said many times he can’t have something with me if he is with someone else (rather than “my feelings for you have disappeared), so I hope in a way it was merely a tough choice and, well, reality bites. He said he cried so much about it, (but had to do it in the shower so his boyfriend didn’t see), so it must have hurt him too. A friend said it must have been harder for him than he is letting on.

He also said “we’re not together but it’s not like i’ve completely forgotten about you, you’re acting like i’m never going to talk to you again”. I worry that will happen. He still sends a good morning, followed usually by some message about something, when I reply he only replies with brief messages, the conversations haven’t really grown into anything. Again, it makes sense because, well, if you’re trying to maintain distance and stay in a “relationship” with one person, you’re not exactly going to start sharing and opening up enormously to someone who you perhaps naturally drift towards.

I think the worst bit is not knowing what it was for him. We can only guess of course as no one is a mind reader. I worry about the future. Is there any point in talking to him at all? I get anxious when he is brief in conversations. Not cold necessarily, but merely not talking as much as he used to with me. Again, I know why, but I don’t know if I can handle it. I know now it’s time for me to go and “live my life”, in a way i’ve accepted it rather than dangerously fantasizing about how to get back with him. There is a forlorn hope inside that says “well, maybe one day he’ll gain his independence and maybe we might reconcile” – not something I am planning for, but even that I feel obligated to snuff out as delusional. It’s hard to adjust to all those plans I made now turning to dust. Working in this job i’d got for him and for “us” – I’ve started to resent it a little, as now i’m leading a life that’s not for me alone but was for me and someone else.

I don’t know how to read this all, I think. I hope it was, as you said Anita, a sort of “opening chapter” snuffed out by reality, maybe even the start of a love story unfortunately not possible because of the circumstances in which it started (a tale as old as time!). Yet, when I tell some people about it, they say he just used me and it was all a fraud, which lingers in my mind and causes a lot of doubt and pain. I don’t see it like that at all. But I greatly fear I am very grossly mistaken in my interpretation of it all, yet I know some fears are unfounded.